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What about Karma?

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posted on Aug, 13 2010 @ 08:40 AM
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I am not very learned in the nature and function of Karma besides having the basic idea that doing good things will affect you positively at some time later than that action and doing bad things will affect you negatively at some time later. This might seem like a simplistic Western concept of Karma and it probably is! My idea of a Karma Debt would be that at the end of each cycle of life, your [+score] is weighed against your [-score] and this determines if you can progress to the next cycle. Since I am not very learned about the subject, I was hoping those ATS members who are could shed some light on the concept of Karma and maybe clarify a few things.

My questions are as follows:

1) Who/what is the Governing Body of Karma? (Is there something that oversees that all debt is correctly calculated, or that mistakes in cycles are corrected)?

2) Are there different metres of Karma (eg: how you treat others, yourself, friends, enemies) or is it simply [sum of all positive actions] - [sum of all negative actions]?

3) Does intent factor into Karma? (If somebody does lots of good deeds but only does so for reputation purposes, will they progress ahead of somebody who does bad things but means to do as well as they are aware?)

There are some others, but those are my main questions. If other members have questions feel free to ask. I encourage anyone who feels they have good understanding of the concept of Karma to come forward and answer questions. Thank you in advance to all those who take the time to answer the questions placed on here.

[edit on 13/8/2010 by Dark Ghost]




posted on Aug, 13 2010 @ 10:02 AM
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From my interpretation karma is not just about bad or good, karma is what runs the universe. Every action has a consequence either good or bad or even neutral. From my interpretation karma is not just about bad or good. Every action has a consequence either good or bad or even neutral. With your questions it’s hard to decide. If the human race was a race that killed for fun (irony) then our views of good and bad would be totally different. It might be good to kill and bad not to. It has to do with the human culture ect.. “Who over sees this karma”, my opinion is that ourselves control our karma. We are responsible for what we do, not some God. For your third question is sort of a tough one in my opinion. It would still be good karma, even though you did it to be recognizing you’re still helping and making a change in another person’s life. If someone wanted to donate millions to sick kids, but just wanted recognition, it would still be good karma as he is helping tons of kids. Karma is still a mystery to all of us.



posted on Aug, 13 2010 @ 10:07 AM
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Kharma is that which you were dealt in this life, your placement, your health, your fortune. Kharma is to be accepted whether it is good or bad, but here lies the key to Kharma. Within your life your choices and actions are creating Dharma, and Dharma is what will usher us into a brighter more beneficial Kharma or it will usher us into something worse than what we have if we make the wrong choices in Life.

So it is well to embrace your Kharma in Life, do good deeds as often as possible, and remain true to your heart, then you will have ensured good Dharma for your journey to your next life.

So yes it is very much like a scale, we are the Governing Body, we ourselves are responsible for our Spiritual Enrichment. Our fates here on Earth are of our own making. Change your Dharma and your Kharma will become quite rewarding.



posted on Aug, 13 2010 @ 10:24 AM
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reply to post by Maddogkull
 


I realise those questions are tough also because they stem from a Western Philosophy perspective of things. I briefly studied Eastern Philosophy and found that approach to be very different in many ways. This worked well sometimes, other times it did not.



posted on Aug, 13 2010 @ 10:35 AM
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Originally posted by Greensage
Kharma is that which you were dealt in this life, your placement, your health, your fortune. Kharma is to be accepted whether it is good or bad, but here lies the key to Kharma.

But where did we all start? Who/what decided at what point these things began or the criteria for how it all functions? If Kharma is my current life (context), is this my first incarnation so to speak? If not, where did the origin of my journey commence from?


Within your life your choices and actions are creating Dharma, and Dharma is what will usher us into a brighter more beneficial Kharma or it will usher us into something worse than what we have if we make the wrong choices in Life.

If we keep being "reincarnated" into a different life (context), how do we obtain the knowledge to ascend in each one? How do we know what are the right or wrong choices though? If I am not aware of my past lives and what I did in them, then how can I compare whether I am making the right choices in this current life?


So it is well to embrace your Kharma in Life, do good deeds as often as possible, and remain true to your heart, then you will have ensured good Dharma for your journey to your next life.

I try to do good when the opportunity arises. Although I also do bad things (eg. I often kill spiders and flies). So if I add up all the spiders/flies I have killed, I could be in trouble...


So yes it is very much like a scale, we are the Governing Body, we ourselves are responsible for our Spiritual Enrichment. Our fates here on Earth are of our own making. Change your Dharma and your Kharma will become quite rewarding.

Do you believe it is a perfect system (Dharma/Kharma)? What about people that are born into horrible lives? Aren't these people doomed to stay in a cycle of negativity? It would seem the notion of Redemption does not exist within this system.

[edit on 13/8/2010 by Dark Ghost]



posted on Aug, 13 2010 @ 10:35 AM
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The interesting thing about Kharma is that you have no means of manipulating it in this current life cycle.

Say for instance the person who only does good because they expect a 'reward' for their efforts. Kharma does not play into that, otherwise people would be doing things just for the rewards; sort of like instant gratification or instant recognition, it does not work with Kharma.

By focusing on building Dharma then you can make better Kharma!



posted on Aug, 13 2010 @ 10:48 AM
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reply to post by Dark Ghost
 


Sorry, I wrote another posting before I read your response LOL I was quick on the Kharma! LOL

To know the beginnings is to know God!

It is that place where Kharma and Dharma meet that you get to stand before all of your lives. Remembering each one would only put you at risk of repeating something based on trauma or issues; it is important that we be given amble opportunity to Create new for each life cycle. I am sure there are parts of us that come over with us from previous lives, subtle hints, urgings, callings, and sometimes actual memories.

I wouldn't worry too much on the Spider or Fly; they are equally moving through the cycle of Life. If you feel bad about killing then you should stop. If you feel that you are doing good by destroying them then you will not be judge by this. It is when you do bad knowingly. Although to me, I rarely ever kill a Spider because spiders eat bugs and anything that eats bugs is a friend of mine.

As for a perfect system, it is there to help those that are in bad situations to realize that they can have hope for better. No one should ever feel that there is no escaping their fate in Life. The poor embrace Kharma/Dharma as a means of overcoming the injustices that surround them. Of course believing in Hinduism helps too. I am not a Hindu, but yes I believe we reincarnate, I believe most of us today have lived previously on Earth.

I believe we are on our next chapter of growth. So "Kharma it up" now because it is going to be a bumpy ride! LOL



posted on Aug, 13 2010 @ 11:44 AM
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reply to post by Greensage
 


Thanks for clarifying that for me. Makes more sense after reading your post.

PS: That is one wise dog in your avatar



posted on Aug, 13 2010 @ 11:44 AM
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Originally posted by Dark Ghost
My questions are as follows:

1) Who/what is the Governing Body of Karma? (Is there something that oversees that all debt is correctly calculated, or that mistakes in cycles are corrected)?


I believe in karma. Most of what I learned about karma is from my elders and bhagvad gita(I am a hindu). Karma is governed by the supreme lord. And by supreme lord, I mean the ultimate person above the lords which we follow religion. I am sure many will be aware of that. The god which we pray to as a part of the religion is a representative or reincarnation of the ultimate lord who prevails through out the universe. He is aware of not only our individual karma but also the overall karma of what we human race obtain in their stay on earth.


2) Are there different metres of Karma (eg: how you treat others, yourself, friends, enemies) or is it simply [sum of all positive actions] - [sum of all negative actions]?


The two criteria for karma are good deeds and bad deeds. Good deeds includes helping the poor and needy, donating things etc.. The bad things include cheating, stealing, killing etc.. The list includes every minute thing in the perception of good and bad.

Then, the difference of the good and bad deeds is done. And this is compared with the karma from your past life. And then, the punishment for the karma you accumulated may come in your life time itself. For example, you can injure yourself unknowingly as a punishment. Or else, it comes down to the end of your life, when you either go to heaven or hell based on your karma. And then, it also decides whether you have a next life. If you have some karma, you are given a chance of being born as human again and work for removing it. So, basically, even your present life is a chance to relieve past karma.


3) Does intent factor into Karma? (If somebody does lots of good deeds but only does so for reputation purposes, will they progress ahead of somebody who does bad things but means to do as well as they are aware?)


Intent factor comes into play. Every good deed must be done in a selfless manner. Then only, you will attain the good karma. If you do a good deed out of a motive, it is classified as greed.

Hope your questions have been answered.



posted on Aug, 13 2010 @ 11:49 AM
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reply to post by Dark Ghost
 
#1: No one.

#2: No.

#3: No.

Karma does not exist.

It is a fairy tale designed to control people, make them behave, like the boogieman does(he isn't real either).

Karma may appear to exist at times. That is because people that do stupid things tend to get hurt, a fact of nature.



posted on Aug, 13 2010 @ 12:43 PM
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the way i look at things, life is basically choice, consequence and damage control.

every choice(good or bad) has a consequence(with regards to the choice). make a bad choice, the consequence will be in line with that choice and from there you choose to correct it or let it play (damage control)

i feel we all pay inevitably from our past and present actions. past, could be past lives, but for normal non-meta people, what you've done 3seconds ago or 15yrs ago. we all pay accordingly.

i mean look at it....if you randomly walk up to someone and sock them in the nose, that was a choice. the consequence could be being socked right back, assault charges, death, the random person being defended by someone you didnt see coming(sucker punch).

but, lets say the one you hit chose not to do anything, and you feel accomplished in your deed, and some time later, you've done your relishing in the deed, got over it and now are behaving like a regular person...and you lose your job, spouse vehicle and you end up homeless, living on the same street you socked the guy on.

and he recognizes you one day, walking the way to work, like he was before you cold cocked him, and he merely hands you a dollar and keeps walking....kinda would suck huh

i'm just enjoying this discussion


[edit on 13-8-2010 by ahmonrarh]

[edit on 13-8-2010 by ahmonrarh]



posted on Aug, 13 2010 @ 12:53 PM
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Karma? Are we not living in an illusion? AND.. Where does one accrue Karma? In an illusion. So is not Karma itself an illusion? Concern yourself not with Karma, but instead with intent. Your thought and intentions manifest themselves. Watch what you wish for or it will manifest and return to you. reply to post by Dark Ghost
 



posted on Aug, 13 2010 @ 01:41 PM
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My questions are as follows:

1) Who/what is the Governing Body of Karma? (Is there something that oversees that all debt is correctly calculated, or that mistakes in cycles are corrected)?

2) Are there different metres of Karma (eg: how you treat others, yourself, friends, enemies) or is it simply [sum of all positive actions] - [sum of all negative actions]?

3) Does intent factor into Karma? (If somebody does lots of good deeds but only does so for reputation purposes, will they progress ahead of somebody who does bad things but means to do as well as they are aware?)

[edit on 13/8/2010 by Dark Ghost]


First, you ask some very good questions. Karma is the law of causation and effect. Outside of modern Buddhism, Karma holds no relation to reincarnation. This is one of my main questions and/or issues with Buddhism. I see reincarnation as something outside of the laws of Karma, but I very well could be wrong.

1) The "governing body" for the laws of Karma (causation and effect) are the laws of environmental nature, human psyche nature and physics nature. If I dump oil waste into a nearby lake, the pollution (cause) will cause fish and other life to die (effect). If I think hateful thoughts about someone else, these negative thoughts (cause) will cause me to act towards that person in a hateful way (effect). If I throw a ball upwards into the air, gravity (cause) will cause it to drop (effect).

2) This is a difficult question. Again, if you are referring to the sum total of plus/minus karma in relation to reincarnation, I do not see any logical evidence for this being true. Now, are there "different meters" of karma? Yes and no. If you do a tremendous deed of virtue for others, such as volunteering at a homeless shelter or an orphanage for 40-50 hours a week giving them everything you have, but then you also like to abuse drugs or alcohol, then your immediate positive karma would still outweigh your negative karma. But then again, negative karma is always stronger than positive karma, and sooner or later your negative karma will begin to eat away at your positive karma, until you can no longer offer the same quality of work in that 40-50 hours because your alcoholism. It's kind of like the saying "Do one bad thing, and ten good things about you are forgotten"

3) This is also a very good question. Yes, intent is everything. Buddha Gautama stated "it is not what you are doing, but why you are doing it." So a man who donates millions of dollars of his fortune to charity and goes around advertising this fact only so he can gain a better reputation, is not gaining much good karma at all, for he is doing it for egotistical/selfish reasons. And on the contrary, a man who is selling drugs to support his family or stealing food in order to survive, is not gaining as much bad karma as one may think. It is not what you are doing, it is why you are doing it. Also Jesus said, "Father forgive for they know not what they do."

Hope that helps.



posted on Aug, 13 2010 @ 01:58 PM
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Its probably tied into reincarnation, I posted about this on another thread.

If you consider we have more than one life then that means there is a limiteed number of conscious souls. So we live as other people who we may know and interact with in this lifetime. So say you help out a homeless person, you dont get a reward immediately but when you live as that homeless person, your action in your previous incarnation has come back to reward you!

Likewise, if you murder someone, maybe you are destined to live as the person you murdered in your next life. What could be better justice?

Thats one of my ideas anyway.



posted on Aug, 13 2010 @ 01:59 PM
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I seen a few people refer to karma as being non-existent and/or a "fairytale", this is just flat out wrong and they are misinformed. Again, karma is the laws of causation and effect. It can be called a scientific theory because it is a testable theory. Science calls it the laws of causation and effect, eastern philosophy calls it karma. No difference.

I also seen some attributing karma to God, this confuses me.

Someone else said karma is an illusion, this also confuses me. Karma's laws are outside of the human sense of self/ego which is what is said to be the illusion or disillusion of the human mind. Therefore karma is not an illusion, it will remain with or without the human species. Humans are just intelligent enough to understand it, but this does not make it an illusion. Just as it doesn't make the laws of gravity or physics an illusion. Those remain with or without the human species.

reply to post by EnactedEgoTrip
 


I respect your ideas, and I too have went through a stage of this thinking, but there is no logical explanation or law that can verify this as being true. Thus, this theory only relies on ones strong faith on it being true. Buddha taught that faith was a dangerous thing that should be used lightly as it can blind the beholder from the truths of his existence and experiences. Faith is a tool for motivation and comfort, but it cannot directly lead to actualizing the truth of ones experience. Only practice can do that.

[edit on 13-8-2010 by LifeIsEnergy]



posted on Aug, 13 2010 @ 02:12 PM
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Every action has a reaction no matter how small or big.

You reap what you sow. If you plant seeds of an inferior plant you will get inferior plants. Sow good seeds you get good plants.

And so it is with our lives. I believe, and have seen on many occasions, whatever you do to or for your fellow human it will come back to you.

It is only common sense to know that karma is a law of nature.

You get back what you give to others whether it is good or bad.

Sometimes it happens quickly and other times you will notice it years later.
But it surely does happen.



posted on Aug, 13 2010 @ 02:22 PM
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Originally posted by LifeIsEnergy
I seen a few people refer to karma as being non-existent and/or a "fairytale", this is just flat out wrong and they are misinformed. Again, karma is the laws of causation and effect. It can be called a scientific theory because it is a testable theory. Science calls it the laws of causation and effect, eastern philosophy calls it karma. No difference.

I found this on wiki(I know...):





According to Paramhans Swami Maheshwarananda, one begets Karma in four ways: * through thoughts * through words * through one's actions * through actions others do under one's instructions
I still think that if you are going to attribute physical occurrences to ones thoughts, that is not following science.

A lot of people don't believe the old story about how or what you think will bring you 'luck', because it has no grounding in science.



posted on Aug, 13 2010 @ 02:37 PM
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reply to post by Dark Ghost
 



1) Who/what is the Governing Body of Karma? (Is there something that oversees that all debt is correctly calculated, or that mistakes in cycles are corrected)?


I like the idea of 'karma' and it's easy to see why so many people do.

It holds out a reward that no matter how crap things get, in the long term (if we're good!) we'll get our due reward. It's like the Santa Principle for grown-ups. It implies that something is keeping a list and checking it twice.

Crack babies and famine victims are just paying their dues and evening the scores for past misdemeanors. Successful, yet immoral people are happy, but they'll get their comeuppance in a future life. Impoverished folk are just investing in their multiple futures.

Let's not complain because it'll work out in the end right?

For me, your first question is where me and karma part company. There'd have to be red tape bureaucrats and bean-counters. More chiefs than indians and more coaches than players. I've thought about it long and hard over the years...this isn't flippant commentary. Life isn't fair and there's no long term game plan by higher authorities.

Be as good as you can be for no other reason than it's the right way to be.



posted on Aug, 13 2010 @ 02:50 PM
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Originally posted by butcherguy
I still think that if you are going to attribute physical occurrences to ones thoughts, that is not following science.

A lot of people don't believe the old story about how or what you think will bring you 'luck', because it has no grounding in science.


I do not attribute physical occurrences to ones thoughts, as in a new age or metaphysical way. I said the law of karma (causation and effect) dictates that if one thinks negative thoughts they will eventually turn into negative actions. These actions are a physical occurrences. That is a scientific process in many respects.

Again, I do not attribute the laws of karma to new age or metaphysical thinking. It is true many people do, including many Buddhists, but it is also true many people take things/words/teachings at face value and do not seek to experience or test it themselves. This is equally true for Christians who read the Bible and do not try and actualize its teachings and meanings, so they are mislead.



posted on Aug, 13 2010 @ 03:04 PM
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reply to post by LifeIsEnergy
 
It appears we both are thinking along the same lines.

If you walk on a tightrope, you very well may fall!

It seems to me that a majority of people use the term in its New Age definition, so I assumed(my mistake, a really dumb one, I do know better) that you were using it in that sense. Sorry.



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