Calling all Debunkers, and anyone who thinks Holocaust Denial is offensive, debunk this!

reply to post by filosophia


Why try to constantly derail your own thread with Soviet posts?

Maybe because there is no meat to your thoughts on the topic?

Hell even your favorite holocaust denier recanted once he gained some age and information and most importantly, some sense. www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by filosophia


Provide answers to my questions...I answered yours.

You don't because you can't, I know.

reply to post by filosophia


Why don't you deny the Soviet famine then?

After all, you don't trust history when it comes to the holocaust.

Tell me why one is historical fact to you, and yet the other isn't?

Originally posted by filosophia
reply to post by Biliverdin

 

But by obsessing about the holocaust we do ignore the soviet tragedy. The website was taken offline, another censored website is zioncrimefactory.com

America and the Soviets both worked to destroy Germany during world war 2, so while Stalin is the usual suspect, Lenin and Trotsky, both Jews, are hidden from view, I wonder why. Now is your cue to call me the idiotically termed anti semite which I am not since I support the Palestinian semites. I am anti zionist, not anti jew despite your dream of me being a jew hater. Have a nice day

The Soviet tragedy has never been ignored. Asserting otherwise in incorrect. As for your odd statement about Lenin being Jewish, sorry he wasn't. He had a Jewish maternal grandmother who converted to Christianity if I recall correctly, but that didn't make him Jewish. I do sense a pattern here.

reply to post by filosophia


Congrats on being the first thread put into the hall of shame! Quite the accomplishment

Originally posted by jheated5
reply to post by filosophia

 

Congrats on being the first thread put into the hall of shame! Quite the accomplishment

Is there an actual Hall of Shame here?

reply to post by AngryCymraeg


The soviet teagedy was not ignored, but the Jewish leadership of the Bolsheviks was censored by the state government by concealing Lenin's religion of Judaism. Lenin was also married to a Jew and had top leadership positions filled with fellow Jews. Trotsky and Marx were both Jews so it is kind of obvious. That aspect is ignored. The Jewishness of the leadership. It doesnt mean all Jews were responsible, but it is an important historical fact. Undeniable.

zioncrimefactory.com...





www.time.com...

Even time.com admits lenin was half jewish, but the jewish aspect is only a secondary function of the plan set down by the rothschilds for world domination which uses the jewish and christian religion as a vehicle for that realization. Judaism to create a jewish homeland, and Christian willpower which claims is all the act of God. Israel is at the apex of the pyramid so to speak.

reply to post by neformore


The soviet famine involved troops stealing peasants crops, thereby causing them to starve. The nazi holocaust involved trains, a cover story (claims of work eastward), gas chambers and crematorium ovens with impossible ratios (20 minutes to kill 100 prisoners, 3 hours to cremate one body), then the bodies were buried, all six million, then they were unburied, and buried again, all with jewish prisoner labor (how could anyone tolerate such work involving their own deceased family members without going insane).

So you can see, a famine is logical, nazi death chamber is not. In fact many of the actual deaths of national socialism prisoners was the result of starvation and disease after allied bombings of supply lines.

Also, no one goes around making exact statistics of the soviet genocide, historians estimate maybe at least 6 million died from collectivized farming, not EXACTLY six million as holocaust historians claim.

Holocaust historians still use the six million number despite Auschwitz OFFICIALLY lowering the deaths from 4 mlion to 1 million.

Look it up and try to prove me wrong.

reply to post by Biliverdin


zioncrimefactory.com...

I basically answered this question by saying the soviet murders were straightforward: bullet to the head or starvation. Nazi murders are so ridiculous as to be impractical and thus highly suspect. it isnt that murders did not happen in the prison camps, but authorized murders no, especially not six million or eleven million. Holocaust historians admit there is no written order for the holocaust, they claim it was all done verbally, also according to holocaust historian Raul Hildberg, the concentration camps only came into operation from 1942-1944, so that is two years, whereas the soviet REGIME lasted from 1917-1991 over seventy years. Is it possible for any group to murder six million in two years based on only verbal orders? This combined with the fact there is no known mass graves of six million at any concentration camps. Combine this with all the known revisions and admitted hoaxes like shrunken heads and skin lampshades, admitted as evidence at nuremberg, the same nuremberg hosted by the victors (who historically write the histories) and the pretext for holocaust denial laws since the trial established a war crime, but how pathetic is this ruling when US and Israel commit war crimes, yet since no one is powerful enough to give them a nuremberg trial, they go scot free. It is hypocritically sickening. That is why I suspect the holocaust is a lie.

Originally posted by filosophia
reply to post by AngryCymraeg

 

The soviet teagedy was not ignored, but the Jewish leadership of the Bolsheviks was censored by the state government by concealing Lenin's religion of Judaism. Lenin was also married to a Jew and had top leadership positions filled with fellow Jews. Trotsky and Marx were both Jews so it is kind of obvious. That aspect is ignored. The Jewishness of the leadership. It doesnt mean all Jews were responsible, but it is an important historical fact. Undeniable.

edit on 4-8-2012 by filosophia because: (no reason given)

zioncrimefactory.com...

edit on 4-8-2012 by filosophia because: (no reason given)

www.time.com...

Even time.com admits lenin was half jewish, but the jewish aspect is only a secondary function of the plan set down by the rothschilds for world domination which uses the jewish and christian religion as a vehicle for that realization. Judaism to create a jewish homeland, and Christian willpower which claims is all the act of God. Israel is at the apex of the pyramid so to speak.

edit on 4-8-2012 by filosophia because: (no reason given)

Let me halt you right there. Lenin's wife was not Jewish. She was the daughter of minor Russian aristocracy. As for the rest of your post, it's meaningless and I will not lower myself to comment on it.

Originally posted by filosophia
reply to post by Biliverdin

 

zioncrimefactory.com...

I basically answered this question by saying the soviet murders were straightforward: bullet to the head or starvation. Nazi murders are so ridiculous as to be impractical and thus highly suspect. it isnt that murders did not happen in the prison camps, but authorized murders no, especially not six million or eleven million. Holocaust historians admit there is no written order for the holocaust, they claim it was all done verbally, also according to holocaust historian Raul Hildberg, the concentration camps only came into operation from 1942-1944, so that is two years, whereas the soviet REGIME lasted from 1917-1991 over seventy years. Is it possible for any group to murder six million in two years based on only verbal orders? This combined with the fact there is no known mass graves of six million at any concentration camps. Combine this with all the known revisions and admitted hoaxes like shrunken heads and skin lampshades, admitted as evidence at nuremberg, the same nuremberg hosted by the victors (who historically write the histories) and the pretext for holocaust denial laws since the trial established a war crime, but how pathetic is this ruling when US and Israel commit war crimes, yet since no one is powerful enough to give them a nuremberg trial, they go scot free. It is hypocritically sickening. That is why I suspect the holocaust is a lie.

The concentration camps were first set up in 1933. The extermination camps started their dreadful work in 1942. These are basic facts. Your research abilities are therefore somewhat lacking. As for Himmler's ability to murder, let me stop you right there. The initial order, from Hitler to his fellating minion Himmler was verbal. The subsequent orders from Himmler downwards were couched in code - "evacuation to the East", etc. It's repulsive but simple. This has been pointed out before to you. Your single-mindedness in ignoring this is... disturbing.

Originally posted by filosophia
reply to post by neformore

 

The soviet famine involved troops stealing peasants crops, thereby causing them to starve. The nazi holocaust involved trains, a cover story (claims of work eastward), gas chambers and crematorium ovens with impossible ratios (20 minutes to kill 100 prisoners, 3 hours to cremate one body), then the bodies were buried, all six million, then they were unburied, and buried again, all with jewish prisoner labor (how could anyone tolerate such work involving their own deceased family members without going insane).

So you can see, a famine is logical, nazi death chamber is not. In fact many of the actual deaths of national socialism prisoners was the result of starvation and disease after allied bombings of supply lines.

Also, no one goes around making exact statistics of the soviet genocide, historians estimate maybe at least 6 million died from collectivized farming, not EXACTLY six million as holocaust historians claim.

Holocaust historians still use the six million number despite Auschwitz OFFICIALLY lowering the deaths from 4 mlion to 1 million.

Look it up and try to prove me wrong.

edit on 4-8-2012 by filosophia because: (no reason given)

I'm not going to bother to refute you, as it would take too much time and enrage me too much.

reply to post by filosophia


I don't need to prove you wrong. You're the one who is denying a recorded historical genocide, and then trying to use another recorded historical genocide to back up your claims.

In other words, you're being hypocritical. As such, what's the point in arguing with you when you argue with yourself?

reply to post by filosophia


You seem to imagine that it is easy to shoot people. In cold blood. I think that there are many service men and women that will inform you that, even in combat, when the other person is armed, that killing is no easy thing. Especially if you are at close range. If that adversary is an unarmed woman or even a child, do you still think it is easy? The Einsatzgruppen, who were made up of mainly police and prison officers, some ex-servicemen, found the task of rounding up men, women and children, lining them up, and shooting them, one after another, for hours on end, incredibly arduous. Many of them had to be institutionalised. They suffered mental breakdowns, and alcoholism was a way of life. As the suicide rate amongst these men steadily rose, Himmler assigned Baldur von Schirach the task of finding a more 'humane' means of killing. Von Shirach in turn assigned the task to Artur Nebe. It was Nebe who suggested the reintroduction of the gassing vans that had been used in the Tiergartenstrasse4 Euthanasia programme, but this was decided to be too small scale to deal with the numbers now starving and spreading disease in the Ghettos. Submarine and motorcycle engines were therefore tested on buildings that had been made airtight, and this was somewhat more effective. Zyklon B was later tested on Societ POWs and found to be somewhat quicker, thus reducing the time it took to kill such large numbers of people.

This was all an ongoing process, as ways and means of making the process, not only more efficient, but also less damaging to the men who were tasked with the killing. Many meetings took place in this process, and Himmler himself met with Odilo Globocnik several times in the weeks proceeding the mass transportion of the Reich Jews from the Ghettos to the killing centre of Lublin. It may seem awfully contrived in retrospect, but this was mass murder on an unprecedented scale, and it was to be carried out with ultimate efficiency and as quickly as humanly possible. The Germans had created this situation, by denying the Jews the right to work, or own businesses, they had no means to support themselves, and the black market trade, as they bartered their belongings for food, was having a detrimental effect on the economy. Once they were completely sectioned off from the rest of society, and unable to barter at all, they were starving to death, without access to basic resources, cramped, overcrowded, disease was rampant. And people were complaining. The problem had to be solved, and since no one was willing to take the Jews from them, and emigration had failed due to the British Naval Blockades, well, there was really no alternative than to put them out of their misery. They couldn't feed them, that would mean rationing the ethnic Germans, and besides that, in temporary camps in occupied Poland, all those that had answered the Auslander call to return to Germany, were waiting for the homes that they had been promised and that were currently still packed full of Jews.

It is a strange thing how a number can enter into the consciousness and be oft repeated, from the top of the head, but that does seem to be the case with the six million figure. Off the top of my head, I typed in 50 million Africans and was somewhat surprised by the results.

www.google.co.uk...:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a

That poor man probably spent years going through sources looking for the term '6 million Jews', and probably missed a thousand and one, mentions of '4 million Jews', '10 Million Jews', and so on and so forth. That sort of single mindedness, I should imagine, is a form of delusion or obsession.

reply to post by filosophia


Some information that you might like to ponder...I'm not a huge fan of numbers, I like the nitty-gritty details, it is there that you usually find the devil...numbers, are so impersonal, don't you think?

The testimony of SS Oberscharführer Josef Niedemayer, the Commandant of the bunker, which was the prison inside the camp, and also the officer in charge of the infamous Block 20, was included in Choumoff's book; his testimony at the trial is quoted as follows:

There was a gas chamber in the camp. About four thousand prisoners were gassed there. When a transport arrived for the gas chamber, I informed the S.S. officers Bachmayer, Zutter or Altfuldisch. The men to be gassed were taken to the bunker where I, personally, with my assistants, S.S. officers Rommel and Proksch, verified the list of names and removed articles of value and documents. Then S.S. guards Roth and Gerber accompanied the condemned men to the gas chamber. After the execution, the S.S. dentists, Henkel and Franz Jutmann, removed the gold teeth. During March and April 1945, one thousand four hundred sick prisoners were gassed, selected by Doctor Wolter, the chief doctor (from August 1944).

www.scrapbookpages.com...

On the 23rd June 1942 SS-Oberfuehrer Viktor Brack wrote to the Reichsfuehrer-SS Heinrich Himmler. He him told that he had provided Brigadefuehrer Globocnik with some of his men to assist with ‘special tasks’. Globocnik was organising the building and operation of the death camps in eastern Poland, including Sobibor. He had been asked to supply more men because of the need for speed with the task.

...You yourself, Mr. Reichsfuehrer, expressed the view to me at an earlier time that one must work as fast as possible, if only for reasons of concealment....According to my impression there are at least 2-3 million men and women well fit for work among the approx. 10 million European Jews. In consideration of the exceptional difficulties posed for us by the question of labor, I am of the opinion that these 2-3 million should in any case be taken out and kept alive.

Of course this can only be done if they are in the same time rendered incapable of reproduction....Castration by means of X-rays, however, is not only relatively cheap, but can be carried out on many thousands in a very short time...Reichsleiter Bouhler will be ready to provide the doctors and other personnel needed to carry out this work. He also instructed me to inform you that I should then order the required equipment as quickly as possible.

ww2today.com...

reply to post by filosophia


A little more? Why not.

Testimony of SS-Unterscharf�hrer Schluch, In the Belzec-Oberhauser trial.
Quoted in "BELZEC, SOBIBOR, TREBLINKA - the Operation Reinhard Death Camps", Indiana University Press - Yitzhak Arad, 1987, p. 70-71:

After leaving the undressing barracks, I had to show the Jews the way to the gas chambers. I believe that when I showed the Jews the way they were convinced that they were really going to the baths. After the Jews entered the gas chambers, the doors were closed by Hackenholt himself or by the Ukrainians subordinated to him. Then Hackenholt switched on the engine which supplied the gas...

I could see that the lips and tips of the noses were a bluish color. Some of them had their closed, other's eyes rolled. The bodies were dragged out of the gas chambers and inspected by a dentist, who removed finger rings and gold teeth...

SS-Untersturmf�hrer Oberhauser on the death camp at Belzec.
Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 228-230:

The gassing of Jews which took place in Belzec camp up till 1 August 1942 can be divided into two phases. During the first series of experiments there were two to three transports consisting of four to six freight cars each holding twenty to forty persons. On the average 150 Jews were delivered and killed per transport. At that stage the gassings were not yet part of a systematic eradication action but were carried out to test and study closely the camp's capacity and the technical problems involved in carrying out a gassing...

About a week after Brack had come to Globocnik, Wirth and his staff returned to Belzec. The second series of experiments went on until 1 August 1942. During this period a total of five to six transports (as far as I am aware) consisting of five to seven freight cars containing thirty to forty people came to Belzec. The Jews from two of these transports were gassed in the small chamber, but then Wirth had the gas huts pulled down and built a massive new building with a much larger capacity. It was here that the Jews from the rest of the transport were gassed.

fcit.usf.edu...

reply to post by filosophia


And perhaps, just for good measure, some of the results recent research projects...proper research as opposed to cherry picking only for those bits of information that fit your agenda...

Germany's chief archivist, Hans-Dieter Kreikamp, is quoted by Bild newspaper as saying that the plans, which appear to have been made from 1941 to 1943, are "authentic certificates of a systematically planned genocide of European Jews", and "of extraordinary importance".

The find includes 28 meticulous sketches on a scale of 1:100. The documents were said to have been found in a flat being cleared out following the inhabitant's death; there were no details about their ownership.

The plans, thin and yellowing, with some drawn on linen, show detailed blueprints of barracks, gas chambers and a cross-section of the gate through which ran railway tracks - the route of the trains that brought the Nazis' victims into the concentration camp, built 37 miles west of Kraków, Poland.

A delousing facility, including a laundry and shower room, is shown leading to a dressing room, and from there to a room measuring 11.7 metres by 11.2 metres (38ft x36ft) labelled gas chamber. There are blueprints for a crematorium and an "L.Keller" - an abbreviation for leichenkeller, or corpse cellar. One plan, for the delousing facility, is said to have been signed by a prisoner

Some of the plans are thought to have been drawn up after Auschwitz was built and then used for its huge expansion during 1941; one bears a signature of the Gestapo commander Heinrich Himmler.

The documents are undergoing close examination. If confirmed as genuine they would adjust the timeline of the planned Holocaust. Historians believed the start of the genocide campaign was January 20 1942 when top Nazi officials met at the lakeside resort of Wannsee, west of Berlin, and concocted the "final solution". One of the drawings has a date that precedes the conference by eight months.

www.guardian.co.uk...

You guys are really interested in this topic, I applaud you, so why brush it into the corner a la off topic highly new ridiculous sub category? Maybe when this thread is placed in general conspiracies where it belongs I will care to give it my full attention, as for your personal insults, it is merely an indication of my moral righteousness.

Holocaust denial is outlawwed, ATS has proven that. You get shipped to an off topic 'concentration' category where the average member does not even know it exists- OR MAYBE THEY DENY IT EVEN EXISTS! Ha ha.

Originally posted by filosophia
You guys are really interested in this topic, I applaud you, so why brush it into the corner a la off topic highly new ridiculous sub category? Maybe when this thread is placed in general conspiracies where it belongs I will care to give it my full attention, as for your personal insults, it is merely an indication of my moral righteousness.

Holocaust denial is outlawwed, ATS has proven that. You get shipped to an off topic 'concentration' category where the average member does not even know it exists- OR MAYBE THEY DENY IT EVEN EXISTS! Ha ha.

I think that we are annoyed when facts are described as fiction. The Holocaust happened. We have the evidence. I suggest that, once again, you deal with it. Goodbye, defeated person.

reply to post by Biliverdin


Ah, hidden plans revealed on a 70th anniversary... Okay you don't find anything suspicious about that? I usually dismiss most holocaust 'discoveries' out of hand, like Ann Franks diary written in ball point pen. Holocaust 'survivors' giving false stories, etc. Amazing that the holocaust finds a way in the news every week or so, a new survivors story or discovery, dont you find that a tad sensationalist? I do, maybe it all happened, but again, bringing the soviet tragedy into this mix, why dont we hear about soviet discoveries concerning all their deaths, survivor stories, etc? There is no such thing as soviet denial, oh wait, thats what msm does, ha.

No surprise this 'discovery' attempts to open the camps eight months earlier, so there would be more time to do the gassings, like how you claim they were started in 1933 what before hitler came to power? Lol.

Also I have a lot of issues with the Himmler thing which