So if Germany started both world wars....

reply to post by redseal


The difference, which you are keen to omit, is that what Germany did happened a long time ago - at least a generation ago. The politics of Germany of old are NOT the same as the current Germany. And neither are the attitudes.

Not the same with the US, however.

The US is still scared of everyone and everything on the planet; the evidence of this is their very aggressive stance on foreign policy - attack first, cover up second and then gloss over.

The US feels the need to govern the planet and the typical view of the US system is that they are the only "modern and civilised" society on Earth. And that attitude comes through in their foreign policy.

So yeh. Germany was mainly responsible for WW1 & 2. But that was then and this is now. And I have to say, as a non-American - the politics and aggresive stance of the US is very VERY scarey. Shades of a 4th Reiche...

[edit on 6-8-2010 by noonebutme]

Originally posted by spaznational
Sure there are a lot of haters, especially in Europe, but so what?

I almost pity Europeans who irrationally hate the US. "Forgive them for they know not what they say." They have, for hundreds of generations, lived under-the-thumb of various forms of governmental control, from warlords to kings to dictators to the current faceless bureaucratic socialism.

They literally have no concept of individualism, self-determination, or freedom. Or worse, they confuse freedom (AKA liberty) with their right to get drunk and brawl at soccer matches. It must be so belittling to have no voice outside of mass protesting and rioting... I'd need some booze too.

Again, you prove my point of why much of the world isn't fond of America. Your attitude and assumption of how we all live, that we're no where as "advanced" as you, culturally, is very offensive and insulting.

And hey - we're all people. We still have the social issues and problems the continent over.

However, how many other countries, apart from America, have their military installations all over the world, feel the need to invade and control any other country that they perceive as a threat?

Originally posted by spaznational
Sure there are a lot of haters, especially in Europe, but so what?

I almost pity Europeans who irrationally hate the US. "Forgive them for they know not what they say." They have, for hundreds of generations, lived under-the-thumb of various forms of governmental control, from warlords to kings to dictators to the current faceless bureaucratic socialism.

They literally have no concept of individualism, self-determination, or freedom. Or worse, they confuse freedom (AKA liberty) with their right to get drunk and brawl at soccer matches. It must be so belittling to have no voice outside of mass protesting and rioting... I'd need some booze too.

[edit on 5-8-2010 by spaznational]

Really you seem to have no clue about europe , you do realise Greece is the birthplace of democracy?You seem to be one of those Americans who ignorantly and irrationally hate or are jelous of Europe.


"no concept of individualism, self-determination, or freedom.

Omg do you really think that the english are just like the italians like the polish, like the germans , like the spanish??etc,

when in fact it is the usa determined to become one homogenous state mass?Americans even all have the same fake teeth ......where is the individualismn...or is it individualism in its own image the USA wants as it has very little history and tradition and individualism of its own?






"Or worse, they confuse freedom (AKA liberty) with their right to get drunk and brawl at soccer matches."

REALLY , surely you are the one misunderstanding liberty from the above....
brawling at soccer matches is such a (80s)cliche , and Mass protest is the other side of the coin of democracy , cant have one without the other......

Made your mind up about how/why the wars 'started' ?

ignore the video titles...

Originally posted by meteoritics
reply to post by Aristophrenia

 

Nice list, but you missed a few. The War of 1812 comes to mind www.kingsown.net...

And the Civil War, where we kicked our own asses! www.historyplace.com...

There's also smaller wars/incidents which don't get regular mention, but should if only to showcase the brutality of American foreign policy.

For example not only did the USA back the right wing in the Greek civil war during/after WW2, they are also responsible for installing the right wing junta, the effects of which are still seen in Greece in the form of a fractured society along left and right wing ideologies.
In time it will also come to light in more detail the USA's hand in the so called "territorial" dispute between Greece and Turkey, and certain incidents like the Imia islets crisis which nearly led to all out war between two NATO countries in 1996.

Then you have the invasion of Cyprus. At the time of the junta in Greece, backed by the USA. Of course some details have been aired already recently, especially about Kissinger the devil, and how the invasion by Turkey was pretty much a proxy job for the USA & UK due to Cyprus' strategic location in the region and the bases and listening stations the USA/UK have setup there.

Another "well" known fact is Israel's cover unofficial support of Kurdish terror groups in the region. Given they are operating in US controlled territory, there is obviously US participation or complicity. It's said the Israeli's have even provided training. It certainly is no coincidence that the PKK has stepped up attacks in recent weeks..since Turkey has sh** all over it's relations with Israel.

There are similar stories of US backing of terror groups & drug cartels in the Balkans. One only needs to know where to look.


For some people this all translates into hatred of America and it's people. Which is wrong. It's American foreign policy, and that is not the fault of the American people. They can only vote for who wins them over like the rest of us in our own countries. The candidate who comes across as the lesser of two evils.

Germany didnt start ww1, usa cleaned up the mess, in ww1 no they didnt in ww2 the russians mainly sorted out the mess. usa went in for money, this choice was made by a handful of people. usa is dislike because of

"do as I say, not as I do"

regards, naeem

Originally posted by BLV12
reply to post by davidmann

 

Doesn't matter who the US fought against.
The end result would have still been the defacto global corporate-capatalist empire/tyrany/slave labour in the developing world that we have today, just in a different form with a different name.

Sure Stalin was a mass murderer too, on a bigger scale then Hitler, and don't worry the attrocities aren't lost on me considering my family had to first flee the Black Sea coast of northern Turkey(aka Pontus, a place my people called home for over 3,000 years) to survive the genocide, and then settled in Russia where they were later driven out again from another home this time by Stalin. Of course these are the genocides and ethnic cleansings which aren't cool to talk about because most people don't know about them.

But anyway, perhaps if the USA had fought on Germany's side and they had won the war, we would already have the mark of the beast, be in a totally cashless society, with big brother monitoring everything including our thoughts and behavioral patterns.

You may be right. The Germans were quite developed. Their vacuum tubes are unrivaled in audio application. Perhaps it didn't matter at all which side we fought against. It may have been an operation simply to gain more state power, everywhere. Also, since the formation of israel was involved, everything hinged around their desires. Once in control of the media, every ounce of machining skill, every scrap of spare metal, in America, went directly against germany, and went toward the formation of israel. Mass marketing is an undeniable force. Is there anything we won't buy?

When I consider russia's technological infrastructure, I can see how Hitler had the balls to attack; even now, their machinists are hacks. When applied to the invasion of the brain, I wonder who built the best 'robots'? Those who can't drill a straight hole, or those whose machining was so exact that they moved on to better things? By fighting, and defeating them, we did gain their secrets. What could we have taken from the russians, as spoils of war? Nothing. Unless you consider mail order wives.

Sadly, what awaits us is terror, any way you look at it.

I look at the wars as a nice diversion from reality. Like you said...monitoring everything, even thoughts. Most of us will die blissfully unaware of it. Only those who are willing to risk a visit to the state mental institution are willing to verbally acknowledge it. This day is sheer terror, and I will apply myself again, day after terror filled say, to look for the highest power in the universe. I am not religious by nature. There's really no other choice for me. Even in the warm weather, I can hear the roof creak oh so subtle, when discussions are forming between me and my 'significant other'. I have good hearing, and I know the sound of a warm up ray (millimeter scanner) discerning any matter standing between my brain, and space. One time, right after I learned about this (10/19/2009)..by direct shocking experience, a firecracker like pop came right out of the area by the small telescreen set. I mention this because another poster said the exact same thing, and I'd never mentioned this until now. My small dog, who was nearly deaf, heard it as well. May God not consider forgiveness for them.

[edit on 6-8-2010 by davidmann]

[edit on 6-8-2010 by davidmann]

I am English but I don't hate the US and I don't know many that do however I don't understand why so many Americans hate the English.

Originally posted by gambon

Really you seem to have no clue about europe , you do realise Greece is the birthplace of democracy?You seem to be one of those Americans who ignorantly and irrationally hate or are jelous of Europe.

Yes, between 500 and 400 BC, particularly in Athens, Greek city-states practiced early forms of direct democracy. Socrates' student Plato wrote The Character of Democracy, a far cry from modern-day Greece. I assume you are aware--since you're not ignorant like me--that the United States is a democratic republic, not a democracy in the Greek sense of the word. Enlightenment-era philosophers built upon the work of the great Greek philosophers.

I don't hate Europeans and what's irrational is you assuming I do hate them or that I'm jealous of them.

Originally posted by gambon
"no concept of individualism, self-determination, or freedom.

Omg do you really think that the english are just like the italians like the polish, like the germans , like the spanish??etc,

Of course I don't think that. In fact, I don't believe YOU even think I think that. You're quite off-topic and being a little intellectually dishonest here.

Europe is ethnically diverse, with language, customs, religions, and arts varying greatly between countries. What I am addressing is collectivism and statism. Europeans are highly dependent, on a personal level, with their social governments. They require from birth to death government involvement in their lives. What's really sad is this description is coming to describe the United States as well.

Originally posted by gambon
when in fact it is the usa determined to become one homogenous state mass?Americans even all have the same fake teeth ......where is the individualismn...or is it individualism in its own image the USA wants as it has very little history and tradition and individualism of its own?

We have very little history? Really? I don't even know how to answer your profound ignorance. Just because they don't teach much American history in your schools (and why would they?) doesn't mean we don't have much history or tradition. We are a nation of immigrants and our history traces back largely to Europe, as do most of our traditions. We were even at war with Great Britain a couple times!

The comment about the teeth... Yes, it's true. A great tragedy my country faces is that many take their liberty for granted. They raise children who are out of touch with their history and who become either extreme narcissists or confused and nihilistic. This is undeniable.

Originally posted by gambon
"Or worse, they confuse freedom (AKA liberty) with their right to get drunk and brawl at soccer matches."

REALLY , surely you are the one misunderstanding liberty from the above....
brawling at soccer matches is such a (80s)cliche , and Mass protest is the other side of the coin of democracy , cant have one without the other......

I was watching some videos of the latest riots in Greece. Really sad, watching people destroy property and shut down businesses... talk about shooting themselves in the foot! They literally don't connect economic activities such as business with their own personal existence. They think money rains from heaven and they somehow, magically, god-givenly, deserve to retire early and live a non-productive and hedonistic lifestyle.

Your protests are like slaves shaking their chains. Free people don't destroy, they protect their lives and livelihoods.

Originally posted by Aristophrenia
Anything else you want to know ?

Yeah, where did you get such a lame-ass list of crap? "American wars" indeed. We have troops assist in the evac of our citizens from a country going thru a civil war, and it's suddenly an "American war".

What a joke.

Originally posted by Aristophrenia
You are right thought - the planet as a collective hates the US to the very core - the fact you wonder why is part of the reason.

Yeah, right. Get a grip. Your hatred of the US is blinding you.

Originally posted by Aristophrenia
Oh - and as far as Germany starting both wars - they did not START the first world war - they were attacked building a pipeline to the middle east for oil - the Brits would not stand it and attacked - the assassination of the Duke Franz Ferdinand is the biggest steaming pile of BS I have ever heard,
Why dont as a little exercise look up WHY the first world war started - and you will get that reply - millions upon million dead for one assassination - i think not my friend.

Yeah, right. Got a legit source for that little BS claim?

Originally posted by noonebutme
However, how many other countries, apart from America, have their military installations all over the world, feel the need to invade and control any other country that they perceive as a threat?

The Soviet Union was doing a pretty good job back in their day. Seems that most people on ATS seem to forget that.

Originally posted by noonebutme

Originally posted by spaznational
Sure there are a lot of haters, especially in Europe, but so what?

I almost pity Europeans who irrationally hate the US. "Forgive them for they know not what they say." They have, for hundreds of generations, lived under-the-thumb of various forms of governmental control, from warlords to kings to dictators to the current faceless bureaucratic socialism.

They literally have no concept of individualism, self-determination, or freedom. Or worse, they confuse freedom (AKA liberty) with their right to get drunk and brawl at soccer matches. It must be so belittling to have no voice outside of mass protesting and rioting... I'd need some booze too.

Again, you prove my point of why much of the world isn't fond of America. Your attitude and assumption of how we all live, that we're no where as "advanced" as you, culturally, is very offensive and insulting.

And hey - we're all people. We still have the social issues and problems the continent over.

However, how many other countries, apart from America, have their military installations all over the world, feel the need to invade and control any other country that they perceive as a threat?

Keeping the world safe for commerce (which keeps bread on your table) is a thankless job.

Originally posted by woogleuk
Yes America did get a lot of supplies through, but they were quite busy at that point plotting the strategic genocide of tens of thousands of Japanese civilians by dropping a couple of nasty devices on their noggins. (OK granted it, brought that part of the conflict to a swift end).

I'm sorry, did you forget who started the war in the Pacific? How about the Rape of Nanking? How about the Bataan Death March, and the treatment of Filipinos by the IJA? And since you're British, how about the massacre of British doctors, nurses and wounded in Singapore?

So, we dropped the nuclear hammer twice on Japan. Keep in mind who started it all.

Originally posted by woogleuk
The simple fact is, when it came to it, all the Allies all pulled together as a team in their respective roles, sure the was might have taken longer without the USAs help, but no way did they play the leading role. I would like to say, ON THE EUROPE FRONT it was the British Commonwealth, then the Russians not far behind, then the USA, but I will be accused of basing that notion on my patriotism, and not simple facts.

By the end of WW2, the British Army was being well supplied by the US. You wouldn't have gotten too far without that.

And the Russians? Keep in mind something called a "non-aggression pact" that they signed with the Germans. People here tend to forget that little tidbit of info. I'm sure the Polish remember.

reply to post by Aristophrenia


excellent response! the op has no education. germans are very efficient and doing better business and had a better economy than the british back early last century. so the brits and others decided to reduce their efficiency. political/corporate greed was rampant even then.
stand by for the next false flag event, it will occur before xmas 2010, so "they" can have another war, this time against iran.

I'm sorry, did you forget who started the war in the Pacific? How about the Rape of Nanking? How about the Bataan Death March, and the treatment of Filipinos by the IJA? And since you're British, how about the massacre of British doctors, nurses and wounded in Singapore?

So, we dropped the nuclear hammer twice on Japan. Keep in mind who started it all.

And the USA are the first country to cry foul when another country tries to develop a bomb, and don't give me that learn by our mistakes crap

But I suppose innocent civilians are classed as collateral damage to the US army, and that makes it ok right?

By the end of WW2, the British Army was being well supplied by the US. You wouldn't have gotten too far without that.
And the Russians? Keep in mind something called a "non-aggression pact" that they signed with the Germans. People here tend to forget that little tidbit of info. I'm sure the Polish remember.

The US produced a large quantity of weapons but the majority of countries, other than Brazil and Mexico, used British or Russian made ones. The Lee Enfield and Mosin-Nagant rifle were produced in such numbers that they are still the top 2 most prolific weapons in the world. Although the US did supply vital things like boots, trucks and cargo ships, this can hardly be used as an excuse to say the USA was the reason the war was won.

[edit on 6/8/10 by woogleuk]

Originally posted by woogleuk
And the USA are the first country to cry foul when another country tries to develop a bomb, and don't give me that learn by our mistakes crap

Never crossed my mind a single time.

Originally posted by woogleuk
But I suppose innocent civilians are classed as collateral damage to the US army, and that makes it ok right?

I wonder if they were classed that way by the IJA in WW2?

Originally posted by woogleuk
The US produced a large quantity of weapons but the majority of countries, other than Brazil and Mexico, used British or Russian made ones. The Lee Enfield and Mosin-Nagant rifle were produced in such numbers that they are still the top 2 most prolific weapons in the world. Although the US did supply vital things like boots, trucks and cargo ships, this can hardly be used as an excuse to say the USA was the reason the war was won.

And the US produced tanks, planes, weapons, food, uniforms, medical supplies......list goes on.

reply to post by jerico65


They sat on their backsides stuffing their faces until the Japs bombed Pearl Harbour, The British Empire and the Russians had the war practically won, but were struggling, the Americans turned the tide, but they didn't even commit to half the struggle, millions of Europeans died fighting for our freedom, America just stepped in to serve their own interests. If Germany came after them next after taking over Europe they would have been screwed, so our boys had them on the run and thought they would make sure it stayed like that. They supplied pretty much what I stated in my previous post, any other "hardware" was what they used themselves and cannot be classified a supplies.

Like I said THEY can claim the Pacific, but they cannot claim the European conflict.

FOR THE BRITS......

Who do you think you are kidding Mr. Hitler?
If you think we're on the run,
We are the boys who will stop your little game.
We are the boys who will make you think again.
'Cus who do you think you are kidding Mr. Hitler?
If you think old England's done?

Mr. Brown goes off to town
On the 8:21.
But he comes home each evening
And he's ready with his gun.

So watch out Mr. Hitler
You have met your match in us.
If you think you can push us
We're afraid you've missed the bus.

so who do you think you are kidding Mr. Hitler?
If you think old England's done.

Please note that last song was added for humour, and a bit of nostalgia for us older ones.



[edit on 6/8/10 by woogleuk]

Originally posted by woogleuk
They sat on their backsides stuffing their faces until the Japs bombed Pearl Harbour...

Slowly, FDR was supplying the British with war materiel. Americans were volunteering to fly with the RAF, or the Canadians, etc.

Originally posted by woogleuk
The British Empire and the Russians had the war practically won...

By 1941? Really?

Originally posted by woogleuk
...but were struggling, the Americans turned the tide...

True.

Originally posted by woogleuk
...but they didn't even commit to half the struggle, millions of Europeans died fighting for our freedom, America just stepped in to serve their own interests....

Really? Their own interests? I guess, "helping England" was selfish of the US...

Originally posted by woogleuk
Like I said THEY can claim the Pacific, but they cannot claim the European conflict.

Yes, the US did the burden of the fighting in the Pacific, but unlike you, I also recognize that the Brits and other Commonwealth countries were fighting hard there, too. I try to give credit where credit is due.

And I'll be more than willing to pass on your views to my Grandfather. He was wounded outside of Nijmegen during Market-Garden. I'm sure he's aware that he was just "serving the interests of the US" and not trying to free the Dutch. You remember Market-Garden, right?

reply to post by redseal




WALL STREET AND THE RISE OF HITLER
By
Antony C. Sutton

www.reformed-theology.org...

www.amazon.com...

Most Americans seem to view the unprovoked unlimited slaughter of foreign civilians by the US military as "bringing freedom and democracy to that country".

When martial law is declared in the US, and the same type of massacres are carried out upon American civilians (by the most horrible banned weapons of war).

I guess it will be viewed as "bringing freedom and democracy to America".

America is about to self destruct.
Americans see that as the total end of freedom on this planet.
Foreigners see it as a just and fitting end to a ruthless, greedy, corrupt, and bloody Empire.