God or Satan

reply to post by wassy


Well Bob, I think I will put it all on "what's behind the curtain."

(audience erupts in riotous applause)

Contestant is jumping up and down now...Bob is about to pull back the curtain:

Point being, nobody knows any of the what, why, where or whens concerning mankind or it's origins.

Pointless to antagonize anyone over particular religious presumptions.

We have plenty of evidence and can mark a staggering path toward evolution and what we have become today. The more we learn the more questions it seems to raise. I do think some basic premises of Christianity and all of the Worlds greatest and oldest philosophies ring true.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

I wonder who was the first to say this? I will call them God.

reply to post by adjensen


First quote is from Isaiah.

"I do as god does , god does as I do" Psalms

1 Chronicles 29:14
"But who am I, and who are my people, that we should be able to give as generously as this? Everything comes from you, and we have given you only what comes from your hand"

Psalm 139:
7 Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?
8 If I go up to the heavens,
you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths,
you are there.
9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
if I settle on the far side of the sea,
10 even there your hand will guide me,
your right hand will hold me fast.

Jeremiah 23:24
Can anyone hide in secret places
so that I cannot see him?" declares the LORD.

IKing 8:27
27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded? (KJV)

Prov 15:3
3 The eyes of the LORD are in every place, beholding the evil and the good.

Eph 1:22-23
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all.
^^^^ GOD IS ALL (i.e. EVERYTHING!)
There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called—one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. (Ephesians 4:4-6)
"Do not I fill heaven and earth?" declares the LORD.
^^^^^ GOD IS ALL !!!!!!AGAIN Christ you should study before you debate.)

These show god is in everything and is everywhere according to The Bible. THese show that Jesus is the same as god according to the Bible.

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,


John 5:17,18 - “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Therefore the Jews sought to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.


John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”

Acts 4:12 - “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

These show Jesus advocated evil.....

Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” Matthew 15:4-7

Mark 7.1 to 7.9 Argues that Jews should be killing their disobedient Children

47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.Luke 12:47 BEAT SLAVES JESUS SAYS!

Jesus telling poeple if they leave their house wives , kids they get an award.
19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

Seeing as how Jesus IS god and GOD is Jesus look at this!!!!!

Joshua 23:15
Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things.

Judges 9:23
Then God sent an evil spirit

1 Kings 9:9
...therefore hath the LORD brought upon them all this evil.

2 Kings 22:16 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place

2 Chronicles 34:24 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof...

Nehemiah 13:18 Did not your fathers thus, and did not our God bring all this evil upon us, and upon this city?

Jeremiah 4:6 Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction.

Jeremiah 6:19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people

Jeremiah 11:11 Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon them

Jeremiah 25:29 For, lo, I begin to bring evil

Jeremiah 35:17 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon Judah and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem all the evil that I have pronounced against them:

Jeremiah 44:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Ye have seen all the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, and upon all the cities of Judah

Jeremiah 45:5 ...behold, I will bring evil upon all flesh, saith the LORD:

Jeremiah 49:37 ...I will bring evil upon them, even my fierce anger, saith the LORD; and I will send the sword after them, till I have consumed them:

Micah 1:12 .... evil came down from the LORD

Micah 2:3 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, against this family do I devise an evil
“Exodus 22:29-30 "You shall not delay to offer from the fullness of your harvest and from the outflow of your presses. The first-born of your sons you shall give to me. You shall do likewise with your oxen and with your sheep: seven days it shall be with its dam; on the eighth day you shall give it to me.”

Ezekiel 20:25-26 Moreover I gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not have life; and I defiled them through their very gifts in making them offer by fire all their first-born, that I might horrify them; I did it that they might know that I am the LORD.”


[edit on 26-7-2010 by IamBoon]

Jesus "brethren eh? Children? lolol

"After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days." (John 2:12)
Evil from god (Jesus)
"And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him." (I Samuel 16:23)

Death serpents from god!

"And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread. And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died." (Numbers 21:5-6)

God of war (kratos is cooler)
"The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." (Exodus 15:3)

Jesus saying he comes for war , not peace.

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household." (Matthew 10:34-37)


I am done.

[edit on 26-7-2010 by IamBoon]

Originally posted by IamBoon
I am done.

Indeed you are. Because you are not a member of the faith, you lack belief and understanding and take an eisegesis approach to Scripture -- selectively reading in order to find support for a viewpoint that does not exist. I'm not going to refute your points, because your initial claim, that God is everything, was dismissed about 1800 years ago by scholars more knowledgable than you or I, so your points are irrelevant.

Believe what you like, but accept that your belief has been considered, debated and rejected, exactly on the basis of the document you're citing.

reply to post by adjensen


They reject "PANTHEISM" Bible verses say god is everything and everywhere at once .... THIS IS CALLED PANENTHEISM and is accepted by church doctrine..... He is all but not totally for he is otherplaces as well and this is what it says in THE BIBLE ...
DO YOU DENY ?


Looks like Mr.Faith is running scared now instead of seeing evidence and owning up to the fact his "god/jesus/satan" are the same basic things AS DESCRIBED BY THE HOLY BOOK they are SOURCED FROM.

Run little guy.. and remember by your logic a square is circular.

[edit on 26-7-2010 by IamBoon]

Originally posted by IamBoon
reply to post by adjensen

 

They reject "PANTHEISM" Bible verses say god is everything and everywhere at once .... THIS IS CALLED PANENTHEISM and is accepted by church doctrine..... He is all but not totally for he is otherplaces as well and this is what it says in THE BIBLE ...
DO YOU DENY ?

Neither Pantheism (God IS everything, what you keep saying) nor Panentheism (God "contains" everything) is "accepted by church doctrine." Here, for example, is the Catholic Church's statement:

The Church has repeatedly condemned the errors of pantheism. Among the propositions censured in the Syllabus of Pius IX is that which declares: "There is no supreme, all-wise and all-provident Divine Being distinct from the universe; God is one with nature and therefore subject to change; He becomes God in man and the world; all things are God and have His substance; God is identical with the world, spirit with matter, necessity with freedom, truth with falsity, good with evil, justice with injustice" (Denzinger-Bannwart, "Ench.", 1701). And the Vatican Council anathematizes those who assert that the substance or essence of God and of all things is one and the same, or that all things evolve from God's essence (ibid., 1803 sqq.).

Referenced here: www.newadvent.org...

That is the Church's view (well, one of the core churches), not cherry picked Scripture that you think says something it does not.

By Adjensen
Writings weren't rejected as scripture because people didn't like them, they were rejected if the ideas contained in them were not consistent with the teachings of Christ.

They weren't consistent with the viewpoint the people of the day had(duality) And as such could only discard those teachings/understanding as being false.

By Adjensen
I never said he was the only one who did make that claim, but the only one who can make it truthfully (by the Christian faith.)

So by definition(via faith) only Jesus can make that claim, and anyone else will be liars? Those Sufi's and Yogi's and whatnot say there is a way to realize who you are, like Jesus did.

Where does the light of God and the light of my soul meet? Can such a distinction be made?

By IamBoon
He is all? So he is me , floods , famine, hatred , murder, child sodomy , welll everything good and bad.... and that doesn't make perfect , loving , or just. Simple concepts really.

Did you mean to say "and that doesn't make God perfect..."?

[edit on 26-7-2010 by scratchmane]

Read God is All in all.
Eph 1:22-23
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all.
^^^^ GOD IS ALL (i.e. EVERYTHING!)
There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called—one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. (Ephesians 4:4-6)
"Do not I fill heaven and earth?" declares the LORD.
^^^^^ GOD IS ALL !!!!!!AGAIN Christ you should study before you debate.)


^^^^ Read you !

[edit on 26-7-2010 by IamBoon]

Originally posted by IamBoon
Read God is All in all.
Eph 1:22-23
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all.
^^^^ GOD IS ALL (i.e. EVERYTHING!)
There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called—one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. (Ephesians 4:4-6)
"Do not I fill heaven and earth?" declares the LORD.
^^^^^ GOD IS ALL !!!!!!AGAIN Christ you should study before you debate.)


^^^^ Read you !

Look, I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt to say that maybe you and I are not understanding what the other means. When you say "GOD IS ALL (i.e. EVERYTHING!)", do you mean the belief of Pantheism? If not, what do you mean?

The reason I ask is because you are so insistent on your being right by finding snippets of scripture here and there that you think make your case, when I've shown you directly that the Church rejects Pantheism.

The passage you cite above in Paul's letter to the Ephesians is Paul's description of the Church, not reality. The Church is often referred to as "the Body of Christ" because of Paul's phraseology. You fault me for "not studying", but you clearly didn't even read Ephesians, or, if you did, you failed to grasp a pretty basic concept.

You're not a Christian, you clearly have little or no grasp of Christian history, doctrine or theology, so stop trying to use Christian sources to prove something that is not Christianity. You want to believe that God is everything, that's fine, but you are not a Christian, because this is not a Christian belief, it was rejected by the Church, and will likely never be a Christian belief.

(Disclaimer to point out that some Universal Unitarians hold this belief, but making that part of the argument is akin to saying Republicans believe in the right to free last minute abortions because you're able to find one or two in the party who do.)

reply to post by adjensen


The church does not dictate Christian belief , only Catholic belief.


The passage I quote is describing the nature of god and what he permeates. There are many , many passages that state he is IN everything but he is not everything. .

The rest of the passages I quote show the malicious nature in Christ and god , both being god of course.

Pantheism states god is nature and the universe.. as in he is just nature i.e. paganism. This is what the church denounced I already said that if you actually read my posts.

Panentheism states god is nature and outside of it within everything being infinite. Huge difference and the church has never really commented because there is nothing in the Bible that refutes the claim and most actually support it.



[edit on 26-7-2010 by IamBoon]

Back in high school I made a comic about Lucifer and God.
It was pretty funny, they both had serious egotisical flaws
and used humanity as pawns.
Kinda like in the Bible.

[edit on 7/26/10 by ohsnaptruth]

Originally posted by IamBoon
The church does not dictate Christian belief , only Catholic belief.

The Catholic Church, the Lutheran Church, the Methodist Church, the Baptist Church, etc, etc, etc, all dismiss your belief as heresy. If you want to create "the Christian Church of Boon" that is based on your theory, go right ahead. Plenty of people have done similar things in the past.

Again, your lack of understanding of Christian history and theology precludes you from making insights into this faith, just as my lack of understanding of physics precludes me from explaining Feynman's study of quantum gravity.

Originally posted by adjensen
The reason I ask is because you are so insistent on your being right by finding snippets of scripture here and there that you think make your case, when I've shown you directly that the Church rejects Pantheism.

Thats my point exactly, the Church rejects it.

Love your neighbour as you love yourself, because your neighbour IS your Self?

Originally posted by scratchmane

Originally posted by adjensen
The reason I ask is because you are so insistent on your being right by finding snippets of scripture here and there that you think make your case, when I've shown you directly that the Church rejects Pantheism.

Thats my point exactly, the Church rejects it.

The Church IS Christianity. The doctrinal differences that separate Catholics from Protestants, and different Protestant denominations from each are important, but don't preclude a whole lot of commonality, including a rejection of Pantheism. I didn't know it until this weekend, but the schism between the Catholic churches (into Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox) occurred, essentially, over three words. That's the kind of foolishness that interpretive doctrinal differences nets you. But core beliefs, like the Doctrine of the Trinity, or Salvation or the nature of God, these are common and your believing them is required if you want to be a Christian, because to not believe them makes you something else.

If you would like to believe Pantheism, that's fine, but you are then not a Christian. The "Gnostic Christians" weren't Christians at all, they were people who liked both gnosticism and Christianity and wanted to find a way to bring them together. The result, a religion that was Gnostic, but not Christian.

Love your neighbour as you love yourself, because your neighbour IS your Self?

No, because God's unconditional love means that he loves your neighbour exactly as much as he loves you, you are equal in every way, so when you treat him worse than you treat yourself, you're demonstrating selfishness and a lack of love for God.

reply to post by wassy


Hello Wassy-

Here is the strange thing about that. First, what I think is good and what you think is good are two different ideas. Second, what I think is evil and what you think is evil are both different as well. Third, what I think is god is also different in what you think it god. and finally fourth, (i'm sure you know where i'm going with this) what I think the devil is and what you think it is are also different.

If you follow your heart and believe in your "god" then good things will happen (at least that is my view, i'm not trying to tell people how to think). If you don't follow your heart and get mad at "god" for not doing more for you or decide you want the "devil" in your life, then that is what will happen. Each day we wake up we have choices to make, each day we can choose to be "good" or "evil" it is our choice. Sometimes our choices are ballanced, and sometimes they are more to one side than the other.

If all you want is happiness but do "evil" things to others because you are not happy then, that is not "good". If you want destruction or "evil" things to happen but run around with flowers again, that is still not "good". If you choose one side then the other will try and do things to "test" you to try and change sides. If you are strong enough and listen to what you "believe" in, then you will be able to see these tricks that are played apon us in our lives that try and stray us away from what we want. Listen, and follow your heart, you will find what you are looking for.

reply to post by adjensen


It is not my misunderstanding it is your blind assertion and meandering around logical arguments that is tripe.

Even when you state god's love is unconditional. So much in the Bible says otherwise yet you still believe it. It is called cherry picking and also , unchristian.

The church says god is all-loving because it looks good and sounds good. Doesn't make it true .

I will leave you to your ignorance now, wish I could say the pleasure was mine.

Originally posted by IamBoon
reply to post by adjensen

 

It is not my misunderstanding it is your blind assertion and meandering around logical arguments that is tripe.

Even when you state god's love is unconditional. So much in the Bible says otherwise yet you still believe it. It is called cherry picking and also , unchristian.

It must be amazing to be so confident in your correctness, when 2,000 years of some of the world's deepest thinkers and greatest theologians disagree with you 100%.

Not that it matters -- since you are not a Christian, and apparently aren't interested in actually learning about it, it isn't surprising that you would come to a wrong conclusion. That you harbour a thinly veiled hatred for it is explanation enough as to why you avoid learning the truth, or admitting your error.

reply to post by adjensen


Panentheism... learn it. Pantheism learn it. The church denies pantheism and I agree it is not a part of Christian thought... why can't you read ? Panentheism is a part of Christian thought with support in scripture , hence the MANY verses I posted.

Unconditional love.... Love without conditions. Where is it possible within Judao-christian faith?

You cannot admit your error when it is obvious, my errors are not obvious and you still cannot come to a response on the other passages I posted proving hatred , malice , and malevolence within god and Christ . Both being the same entity.

Theologians come to many different conclusions and the world's deepest thinkers do also.

If your are speaking of the same people who used to debate how many angels could dance on the head of a needle then your definition is far different than mine on a "deep thinker".
I admit when I am wrong with proof and do listen and read about Christian thought.

You it seems do not and cannot even think about other possibilities because you are just a mindless sheep on the subject.

[edit on 27-7-2010 by IamBoon]

It is what it is. I think there are too many good things on Earth. yes pain is one of them. I feel that anything negative can be a positive. You burn yourself, you learn not to do it again. When your parents die you grow out of it. Everything has growth on Earth and that includes going through the rough spots in life. lol I almost spelled spelled life laugh. because life is joke to me. chuckles

carry your cross and keep going.

Let God and Satan figure that # themselves out. I have no control in the world at all. except for me.

Originally posted by adjensen
If you would like to believe Pantheism, that's fine, but you are then not a Christian. The "Gnostic Christians" weren't Christians at all, they were people who liked both gnosticism and Christianity and wanted to find a way to bring them together. The result, a religion that was Gnostic, but not Christian.

Do you consider the Pantheism/Panentheism a viable interpretation, even though you don't agree, or do you discard any such notion due to church doctrine?

Originally posted by adjensen

By Scratch
Love your neighbour as you love yourself, because your neighbour IS your Self?

No, because God's unconditional love means that he loves your neighbour exactly as much as he loves you, you are equal in every way, so when you treat him worse than you treat yourself, you're demonstrating selfishness and a lack of love for God.

I'm not sure what you are saying here. As I understand it "Love your neighbour as you love yourself" is a commandment directed at all humans, you and I included.

How can I love my neighbour as my self, unless I consider them to be my Self?