God or Satan

Originally posted by SNAFU38

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by SNAFU38
God is not fair, I gave until I was physically & financially bankrupt, its done me no good.

If you are a person of God, you know full well that it has done you good. Store up your treasures in heaven, not on Earth, eh? I find it unusual that a person who has given as you have would be disappointed in the lack of physical and material well being, and most particularly that you'd blame God for it.

How can I be sure there is a heaven if I cant be sure I trust the entity that claims to have created it ? Why would any person who sacrificed all but his life (& was willing to) want to keep following blindly for nothing, eh ?

I see no sign of god, yet for some reason I cant stop believing. Ive done all I can, & if he can do ALL, then whats the harm in him proving to me, even in just a little way, that he does exist & does actually give a #@*!

God is not going to give you any more proof than you already have. Faith is not about you doing "tricks" and God rewarding you with a look behind the curtain. Do good because you want to do good, not because you're looking to get something out of it. Remember the Pharisees, who Christ said "had already received their reward" because they looked for Earthly honours.

No matter how hard you try, you are not saved by your works. Your works demonstrate your faith, but it is your faith that saves you.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by SNAFU38

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by SNAFU38
God is not fair, I gave until I was physically & financially bankrupt, its done me no good.

If you are a person of God, you know full well that it has done you good. Store up your treasures in heaven, not on Earth, eh? I find it unusual that a person who has given as you have would be disappointed in the lack of physical and material well being, and most particularly that you'd blame God for it.

How can I be sure there is a heaven if I cant be sure I trust the entity that claims to have created it ? Why would any person who sacrificed all but his life (& was willing to) want to keep following blindly for nothing, eh ?

I see no sign of god, yet for some reason I cant stop believing. Ive done all I can, & if he can do ALL, then whats the harm in him proving to me, even in just a little way, that he does exist & does actually give a #@*!

God is not going to give you any more proof than you already have. Faith is not about you doing "tricks" and God rewarding you with a look behind the curtain. Do good because you want to do good, not because you're looking to get something out of it. Remember the Pharisees, who Christ said "had already received their reward" because they looked for Earthly honours.

No matter how hard you try, you are not saved by your works. Your works demonstrate your faith, but it is your faith that saves you.

Well as I have no proof & he has provided NO, literally NO proof to anyone, then I may as well look for earthly pleasures because an unfair god will not let those that question his out dated ideology have any hope, let alone hope of seeing heaven. I may as well start living like the selfish, at least they get something they know exists.

Nomatter what you or anyone says, nomatter what texts you quote in your own interpretation of them, this is gods doing & it is up to him to win us back, IF he cares about our souls. Does he care about us ? Prove it, not you, god, prove it & I will follow !! Blind faith, maybe if I was in the stone age, but not today. A god that will allow a mother to eat her own childs brain, thats no caring god, thats evil in all its true form.

Again, I believe in god, jesus etc, but I refuse to believe he is caring as he claims (or rather as those who interpret the texts claim). I have no doubt you will try to convince me your interpretation of what is written is the absolute truth, you cant convince me of that, its up to him now. If anything, you are convincing me more & more he may not exist at all. This is the 1st time I have ever written without using a capital at the start of him, god etc. Maybe I should thank you for removing what dwindling faith I have.

reply to post by SNAFU38


Again, I am sad to say that your posts don't reflect someone who knows God. God never said "give all your stuff away and I'll give you proof of my existence" so it's irrational to feel let down when that doesn't happen. It seems odd that someone would be so altruistic, and then post anonymously on a forum about one's significant disbeliefs. Particularly one who lists "UFO's, DUMBS, Tech Suppression" on his ATS profile, and not charity or religion.

If you are on the up and up, find comfort in knowing that you have helped others, who really needed your help, and any reward you think you might deserve, God holds for you. But God is not a trained monkey who will do parlour tricks at your behest.

If, as seems the case, you are not who you claim that you are, no one is laughing at your joke, and realize that it's one thing to deny God, quite another to try and turn others against him by lying.

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by SNAFU38

 

Again, I am sad to say that your posts don't reflect someone who knows God. God never said "give all your stuff away and I'll give you proof of my existence" so it's irrational to feel let down when that doesn't happen. It seems odd that someone would be so altruistic, and then post anonymously on a forum about one's significant disbeliefs. Particularly one who lists "UFO's, DUMBS, Tech Suppression" on his ATS profile, and not charity or religion.

Again, I am sad you try to preach to me while only achieving the opposite of what you seek. What is irrational is believing in some great gift when there is NO evidence that who you blindly obey has any ability to give it to you, let alone the intention to give you what you need. I submitted the required info about myself, if you check my other posts you will see, I am not stupid enough to post all my detaisl on the net, especially when there's irrational pshychopathic preachers awaiting my response to their beliefs.

I believe in UFO's as I saw one (not PROOF its an alien), I believe in in DUMBS & tech suppression as I KNOW from personal military experience that it DOES exist, thats PROOF I HAVE seen ! No blind faith they are there, Ive seen it !!!!

If you are on the up and up, find comfort in knowing that you have helped others, who really needed your help, and any reward you think you might deserve, God holds for you. But God is not a trained monkey who will do parlour tricks at your behest.

I do feel good about the help I provided others, so why make me more of an invalid so I was forced to stop helping them, due to injuries sustained while volunteering for others ? So god isnt a monkey, neither am I nor you, though we are related

He wants blind faith from me, he can do a simple trick or 2, not that that is what I asked for.

If, as seems the case, you are not who you claim that you are, no one is laughing at your joke, and realize that it's one thing to deny God, quite another to try and turn others against him by lying.

What are you talking about, not who I claim to be ? Blind faith is the joke, therefore you, so you are correct, nobody is laughing at you, just feeling sorry. I dont deny gods existance, I deny his ability to care. Yes, it is quite some thing to try forcing someone to believe what you do !! Hypocrite. Here is a final thought for you. If we are made in gods image (according to the texts you blindly follow), then looking at me, what is god ? Selfish, arrogant, self centered ?

However, I am not here to answer your insecurities, nor to try as hard as you are to change someone elses point of view. I gave my opinion on the original question. You are the one feeling so insecure about your own beliefs that you feel the need to preach so hard, try so hard to make me feel as if my beliefs are worthy of pitty rather than experience. I pitty you, the person seeking for justification so hard you must belittle another persons opinion.

From Isaiah 45 (King James Ver)

"7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things"

Who makes peace and create evil in this world?

Man does.

Apparently so does God.


Psalms 82

6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”;

you are all sons of the Most High.’

7 But you will die like mere men;

you will fall like every other ruler.”

John 10:34
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are gods? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?


Whatever I do, God does, and whatever God does, I do.


Gospel of Thomas

77. Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.

Split a piece of wood; I am there.

Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."


113. His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?"

"It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' Rather, the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people don't see it.


We seem to have blinded ourselves from the truth, maybe on purpose...

Who ever said there was a separation between God and I?

first off id like to state that i dont believe the bible, quran, or the tanakh (torah, nevi'im, ketuvim) are true at all. maybe some parts may be based on stories that were based on something that was true at some time, but thats about it.

personally if i was a bible believer id would definitely be a luciferian as yahweh (i choose not to say god because god isnt a name) seems like one evil mofo and satan i see as a liberator and teacher of knowledge. if i was adam i would have made friends with the serpent after yahweh cast me outta the garden. then id proceed to do everything i could to spite yahweh for wanting to keep me and eve ignorant.

edit to add that i dont think lucifer and satan are one in the same.

edit 2: also i cant recall ever hearing a story of satan killing anyone

[edit on 26-7-2010 by bismos]

Originally posted by bismos
first off id like to state that i dont believe the bible, quran, or the tanakh (torah, nevi'im, ketuvim) are true at all. maybe some parts may be based on stories that were based on something that was true at some time, but thats about it.

personally if i was a bible believer id would definitely be a luciferian as yahweh (i choose not to say god because god isnt a name) seems like one evil mofo and satan i see as a liberator and teacher of knowledge. if i was adam i would have made friends with the serpent after yahweh cast me outta the garden. then id proceed to do everything i could to spite yahweh for wanting to keep me and eve ignorant.

edit to add that i dont think lucifer and satan are one in the same.

edit 2: also i cant recall ever hearing a story of satan killing anyone

[edit on 26-7-2010 by bismos]

Seems lucifer is the embodiment of desire, freedom and happiness through materials while god is of restraint , obediance , and happiness.

Originally posted by scratchmane
From Isaiah 45 (King James Ver)

"7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things"

Who makes peace and create evil in this world?

Man does.

Apparently so does God.


Psalms 82

6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”;

you are all sons of the Most High.’

7 But you will die like mere men;

you will fall like every other ruler.”

John 10:34
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are gods? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?


Whatever I do, God does, and whatever God does, I do.


Gospel of Thomas

77. Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.

Split a piece of wood; I am there.

Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."


113. His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?"

"It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' Rather, the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people don't see it.


We seem to have blinded ourselves from the truth, maybe on purpose...

Who ever said there was a separation between God and I?

There are so many ethical , criminal, and masochist ideals you just tainted Jesus and god with using those verses. Tsk tsk

Originally posted by SNAFU38
What are you talking about, not who I claim to be ? Blind faith is the joke, therefore you, so you are correct, nobody is laughing at you, just feeling sorry. I dont deny gods existance, I deny his ability to care. Yes, it is quite some thing to try forcing someone to believe what you do !! Hypocrite. Here is a final thought for you. If we are made in gods image (according to the texts you blindly follow), then looking at me, what is god ? Selfish, arrogant, self centered ?

Blind faith isn't a joke, but it's not super admirable, either, as one can easily be swayed into doing something that is not correct. I do not "blindly follow" anything, text or otherwise, I prefer to critically think about things before I accept or reject them, though that gets much easier as time goes on.

You cannot look at yourself and expect to see God. You were made in his image (whatever that means,) not the other way around. An atheist would argue that point, obviously. The traits that you cite are human traits, not divine traits, and references to God having them in scripture are most likely the author misapplying them.

However, I am not here to answer your insecurities, nor to try as hard as you are to change someone elses point of view. I gave my opinion on the original question. You are the one feeling so insecure about your own beliefs that you feel the need to preach so hard, try so hard to make me feel as if my beliefs are worthy of pitty rather than experience. I pitty you, the person seeking for justification so hard you must belittle another persons opinion.

I am not belittling your opinion, and if I have offended you by misreading what you have written, I apologize. Your first post indicated that you were a follower, who had led an ascetic life, and after reaching a low point, you were angry that God didn't seem to be around. Subsequent posts have cast that in a different light, and there are some here (and in many other forums) who misrepresent themselves in order to either make fun of Christianity or to try and cast doubts on it. If that is not you, again, my apologies.

However, my original point still stands. Do good because you want to do good, not because you think that if you "do enough", you'll get an insight that others do not. Mother Theresa struggled with her faith during her ministry, for similar reasons -- feeling that God had abandoned her, but she always regained that faith, because it's a matter of accepting, not expecting.

As Jesus has said, if there are rewards to be expected for following his commandments, they are rewards stored up in heaven, not here.

reply to post by scratchmane


The Gospel of Thomas is not canonical.

The Psalm was written by man, stating that the 'gods' (note quotation marks) that the enemies relied on would be crushed by the true God of Israel.

Jesus was one with God, the only human who can make that claim.

God gives us free will, which is not evil, but it allows evil to exist through our bad choices. That is how he "creates" evil, and note that "creates" is different than "causes". If God took away free will and made our decisions for us, evil would cease to exist.

Originally posted by IamBoon

Originally posted by scratchmane
From Isaiah 45 (King James Ver)

"7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things"

Who makes peace and create evil in this world?

Man does.

Apparently so does God.


Psalms 82

6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”;

you are all sons of the Most High.’

7 But you will die like mere men;

you will fall like every other ruler.”

John 10:34
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are gods? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?


Whatever I do, God does, and whatever God does, I do.


Gospel of Thomas

77. Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.

Split a piece of wood; I am there.

Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."


113. His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?"

"It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' Rather, the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people don't see it.


We seem to have blinded ourselves from the truth, maybe on purpose...

Who ever said there was a separation between God and I?

There are so many ethical , criminal, and masochist ideals you just tainted Jesus and god with using those verses. Tsk tsk

Did I now?
Care to elaborate?

Do you perceive the world as being seperate from yourself? The standpoint of duality denies certain viewpoints.

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by scratchmane

 

The Gospel of Thomas is not canonical.

As I understand it the bible was voted on, votes deciding what to put in and what not. Who were they to decide, by vote none the less, which gospels should be used?

Originally posted by adjensen
The Psalm was written by man, stating that the 'gods' (note quotation marks) that the enemies relied on would be crushed by the true God of Israel.

It may have been written by a human, but why would Jesus then quote it unless it had some truth to it?

Originally posted by adjensen
Jesus was one with God, the only human who can make that claim.

Well there was a Sufi once, who exclaimed that he was God, and got his head cut off. Numerous Yogi's say basicly the same.

Originally posted by scratchmane

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by scratchmane

 

The Gospel of Thomas is not canonical.

As I understand it the bible was voted on, votes deciding what to put in and what not. Who were they to decide, by vote none the less, which gospels should be used?

Writings weren't rejected as scripture because people didn't like them, they were rejected if the ideas contained in them were not consistent with the teachings of Christ. There were plenty of early documents that had all sorts of claims in them, but the early Church leaders were able to discern what was correct and what was not.

The Gospel of Thomas is a collection of saying attributed to Christ, and while it includes some things that he did say, it includes a number of things that are contrary to the Christ described in the Synoptic Gospels and the Gospel of John, as well as the teachings of the early Church (which was the organization of the 12 Apostles, so they most likely had it right,) and the work was not included in official canon because it was judged to be inaccurate.

Originally posted by adjensen
The Psalm was written by man, stating that the 'gods' (note quotation marks) that the enemies relied on would be crushed by the true God of Israel.

It may have been written by a human, but why would Jesus then quote it unless it had some truth to it?

Yes, it has truth in it. Read what I wrote again. The enemies of the Psalmist claimed to have "gods" on their side, but the psalmist says that the Jewish God will destroy them as men, whatever they might be.

Originally posted by adjensen
Jesus was one with God, the only human who can make that claim.

Well there was a Sufi once, who exclaimed that he was God, and got his head cut off. Numerous Yogi's say basicly the same.

I never said he was the only one who did make that claim, but the only one who can make it truthfully (by the Christian faith.)

[edit on 26-7-2010 by adjensen]

Originally posted by scratchmane

Originally posted by IamBoon

Originally posted by scratchmane
From Isaiah 45 (King James Ver)

"7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things"

Who makes peace and create evil in this world?

Man does.

Apparently so does God.


Psalms 82

6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”;

you are all sons of the Most High.’

7 But you will die like mere men;

you will fall like every other ruler.”

John 10:34
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are gods? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?


Whatever I do, God does, and whatever God does, I do.


Gospel of Thomas

77. Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.

Split a piece of wood; I am there.

Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."


113. His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?"

"It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' Rather, the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people don't see it.


We seem to have blinded ourselves from the truth, maybe on purpose...

Who ever said there was a separation between God and I?

There are so many ethical , criminal, and masochist ideals you just tainted Jesus and god with using those verses. Tsk tsk

Did I now?
Care to elaborate?

Do you perceive the world as being seperate from yourself? The standpoint of duality denies certain viewpoints.

Duality is the viewpoint the difference between the object and the thing perceiving it. Yes I am of this viewpoint.. aren't you? Just because a being must be able to separate himself from his world to "be" and use functions doesn't mean he himself is not a body within it . en.wikipedia.org...

"7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things"

I create evil. not much more to say. If you created evil would you be considered "good"? Jesus is god so there you go.


77. Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.

Split a piece of wood; I am there.

Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

He is all? So he is me , floods , famine, hatred , murder, child sodomy , welll everything good and bad.... and that doesn't make perfect , loving , or just. Simple concepts really.

[edit on 26-7-2010 by IamBoon]

Originally posted by IamBoon
77. Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.

Split a piece of wood; I am there.

Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

He is all? So he is me , floods , famine, hatred , murder, child sodomy , welll everything good and bad.... and that doesn't make perfect , loving , or just. Simple concepts really.

Again, the Gospel of Thomas is not canonical and is not believed to be a true representation of Christ. He is not all.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by IamBoon
77. Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.

Split a piece of wood; I am there.

Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

He is all? So he is me , floods , famine, hatred , murder, child sodomy , welll everything good and bad.... and that doesn't make perfect , loving , or just. Simple concepts really.

Again, the Gospel of Thomas is not canonical and is not believed to be a true representation of Christ. He is not all.

And what of the other verses? Jesus states he is GOD ,is as GOD , is where god is, and does what god does. God is everywhere and god is everything , as well as created everything.

So are you going to say your holy book is not literal or to be taken seriously? Without it your whole belief system crashes and with it you cannot believe in a perfect, compassionate , all-loving Christ or father. SORRY!

Originally posted by IamBoon

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by IamBoon
77. Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.

Split a piece of wood; I am there.

Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

He is all? So he is me , floods , famine, hatred , murder, child sodomy , welll everything good and bad.... and that doesn't make perfect , loving , or just. Simple concepts really.

Again, the Gospel of Thomas is not canonical and is not believed to be a true representation of Christ. He is not all.

And what of the other verses? Jesus states he is GOD ,is as GOD , is where god is, and does what god does. God is everywhere and god is everything , as well as created everything.

So are you going to say your holy book is not literal or to be taken seriously? Without it your whole belief system crashes and with it you cannot believe in a perfect, compassionate , all-loving Christ or father. SORRY!

If you mean the other verses you listed, they are all from the Gospel of Thomas.

There is nothing in the Bible that says God IS everything. He is not material. He is not this desk, or my computer, or me. Omnipresence means he can exist everywhere, not that he is the "stuff" that everything is made of.

And I am not a fundamentalist, so my faith is not predicated on the Bible needing to be taken literally, in full. It obviously should be taken seriously, but Christians come to God through Christ, not through the Bible, so, no, nothing comes crashing down in its absence.

reply to post by adjensen


Know your bible.... Jesus states he is the same as and does the same as his father in every canon about him.

Since you are using backwards logic I will source a verse or verses that state this fact from every canon. And if you can deny one canon , what excludes the rest? cherry-picking time. I swear if Jesus said a square had no measurable sides you would argue me that it didn't . That is called Blind Faith and if a mental test would find you mentally handicapped.

Originally posted by IamBoon
reply to post by adjensen

 

Know your bible.... Jesus states he is the same as and does the same as his father in every canon about him.

Since you are using backwards logic I will source a verse or verses that state this fact from every canon. And if you can deny one canon , what excludes the rest? cherry-picking time. I swear if Jesus said a square had no measurable sides you would argue me that it didn't . That is called Blind Faith and if a mental test would find you mentally handicapped.

You seem to have an inerring ability to either not read or fail to understand what I write. Jesus IS the same as the father. This is the Doctrine of the Trinity.

Neither Jesus, nor the father, nor the holy spirit is everything, as you claim. Jesus' human part is material, nothing else is. God is not a table, nor a computer, nor a person. There is no direct support for saying that he is in Scripture.

Go back and reread what I said about the exclusion of non-canonical writings for the rationale of it.

yeah, kind of like how God imprisons adam and eve in the garden of eden, while satan tries to get them to gain knowledge to become like a god. So, God would be traditionalism and authority, while Satan would represent questioning and knowledge. If you value science and truth, God certainly seems like satan, and "satan" certainly seems like God, meaning there is still the term God, and all you need to do is add an "o" in the middle of God, and you have Good, which is the less religious concept to think about.