Why does God allow the existance of people who go to hell?

Originally posted by Salamandy

Originally posted by oilwatchernx2
Read the bible for the lessons but don't devote yourself to a story that was likely written by bitter old men with ill intentions.

If only the majority of our world's religions preached this fact as there most important concept, than our world would be a much kinder gentler place.

The majority of our world is dedicated to a workplace.
The workplace could have a effect on the belief system.
This not possible for the majority of the world to preach that fact.

God couldn't be a possible! It's being argued with unknown authors for dispute.


[edit on 10-7-2010 by Erad3]

Another inane post. Love lives forever. Many whom I loved will be there forever. No matter how bad I lived my life, there are those that will come to my rescue.

So Much love in my life, yet I have so much hatred to humanity.


Life will continue. Regardless of what you religious freaks think. It's a big ole circle. I will be become and I will love.

I don't need anyone's spectrometer to gauge my love for the people in my life. Forget your God. My God is Love. My family is love.

.

Originally posted by Salamandy
reply to post by Bedlam

 

Oh cool so there is a debate about it. Seems like a lot of filibustering to me. Honestly I dont understand if your were providing a succinct answer for me or pointing me in the direction of some type of wacky debate.

You were acting like you had discovered some new, telling, heretofore unconsidered philosophical point - mine is that you're about 2000 years too late, and if you're actually interested in what the founders of Christianity thought about that very issue, have a read.

Ghandi was fully aware of Jesus the man and what his many perceptions of him were. Nobody is sitting in a pit of fire. The pit of fire is more than likely your guilt when you do things you know are wrong throughout life.

Nah, no-one's there yet. You apparently don't get the pit of fire part until much later. Currently, the post-Christ dead are asleep in Christ. Gandhi won't get charcoal grilled until AFTER the judgement.

and look when i was in church as a youngster i was told that when i go to heaven there would not be any lions or bears or animals there. I looked forward to heaven so much just so i could snuggle with these beasts like i couldnt here on earth. so if there is a hell, there must be animals to snuggle with in heaven...

There are apparently animals in paradise. It's not mentioned pro or con whether they get to go to heaven. However, I'd assume since you could at one time visit hell if you liked, you could stroll down to Paradise and have a visit.

Originally posted by The Endtime Warrior
Well if [God] is responsible for suffering and misery, then he is responsible for everything else too. So the way you think is because of god right? God makes you think the way you do? Its all his thoughts in your mind? Even you know this is a silly notion.

Please explain to me how this notion is silly. Omnipotence implies universal responsibility. If God sees evil happening, can correct it but does not, then He is responsible for the evil because he could and should have prevented it.

Think harder. Think more clearly.

Originally posted by adjensen
To claim that God is evil because he allows bad things to happen simply shows that you neither understand God, nor the concept of good and evil.

I see. It's all my fault, because it cannot be God's.

Let's just say that evil is merely an aspect of good... the absence, in fact, of good.

Why should we say this? The facts don't bear it out. Evil is the infliction of misery and suffering that can be avoided, but is not. It is a real thing, not an 'absence', and it is in fact far more amenable to clear definition than goodness is.

No action is purely good or evil, because there is not just the action, there is the result, which factors in. So there's a spectrum of goodness, with pure good on one end and pure evil on the other.

Religiose doubletalk. The spectrum only exists in the reality of limited, circumstantially bound entities like ourselves. To God, who is supposedly omnipotent, there is no 'spectrum'. He should be able to eliminate evil from the world entirely without diminishing the good. Omnipotence, you know: the ability to do anything. Or are you saying that God is bound by circumstances just as we are? Why then should He be worthy of our reverence?

But, perhaps, from God's perspective, the act itself is evil, but the results are less so, when viewed in the context that only an omniscient being can comprehend.

So God is a moral relativist for whom the definitions of good and evil change with circumstances? And also a player of realpolitik, who weighs benefits against disadvantages? God is a manipulative pragmatist without any ethics?

God "allows" an evil dictator, who kills thousands of his subjects? Perhaps the injustice of this causes people to not allow the rise to power of another evil dictator, who would have killed millions.

Why not - being omnipotent an' all - prevent the rise of dictators altogether?

My wife died in March of a heart attack at age 46. Pretty awful, trust me, there's not much good that I can see in that. But I'm not God.

I honestly sympathize with your pain, but why do you feel obliged to make lame excuses for the God who - if He actually exists - was the cause of it?

He may see her brothers and sisters, taking better care of themselves because their sister's death showed the importance of doing so.

So He's willing to murder your wife ('natural causes' means 'murder by God' if you believe in Him) just to make her siblings live more responsibly? How evil is that? Why couldn't He - being omnipotent an' all - just make them more responsible to start with?

It's tough for me, but the good of extending the lives of many people, at the cost of my beloved wife, probably results in the better good coming from God "allowing" her to die, rather than fix her.

So God doesn't give a toss about your feelings. He deliberately causes you grief and loss and soul-numbing pain, just for some purpose of His own. And you say God isn't evil?

Your claim that God is evil, simply because evil exists, comes out of the ignorance and arrogance of thinking that because something seems unfair to you, from your human perspective, that makes it so to everyone, including God.

No. It comes from seeing things straight. Clearly, there is no God in reality. Just as clearly, the God people invent and put their faith in is an evil chimera.

Does 'god' allow them to to to 'hell', or do they allow themselves to go there?

Originally posted by Astyanax

Originally posted by The Endtime Warrior
Well if [God] is responsible for suffering and misery, then he is responsible for everything else too. So the way you think is because of god right? God makes you think the way you do? Its all his thoughts in your mind? Even you know this is a silly notion.

Please explain to me how this notion is silly. Omnipotence implies universal responsibility. If God sees evil happening, can correct it but does not, then He is responsible for the evil because he could and should have prevented it.

Think harder. Think more clearly.

I see your point I misunderstood your post. I only read one of your responses to another post. So let me understand you, God doesn't exist because of a contradiction of evil existing and not doing anything about it. Or were you saying hell could not exist and you do believe in god just that he wouldn't send people to hell? Please clarify to me.

reincarnation, and freewill. Simple

reply to post by Bedlam


I did forget that part. Ok so Ghandi gets fried after the second coming. Gotcha

If I get a chance Ill check out what other religious leaders have to say. I already have checked a few on a recent video i saw a they squirm and have that cornered fake smile and look about them when trying to answer.

all "evil" and all "goodness" is the product of the human mind. please place responsibility where it logically belongs. 7th century thinking leads to 7th century actions. and i for one do not want to go back to that barbaric way of thinking and living.
blaming "evil" on some outside source is childish and can lead to destructive actions. these people need to grow up and act like 21st century thinking, logical, reasoned adults.

Originally posted by monkeySEEmonkeyDO
I've always questioned why God, who is omni-present, allows the existence of people who will never make the decision to become "saved", and will go to hell.. According to the Bible, we all make our own decisions, and we are responsible for those decisions. But, if God KNOWS our decisions will place us in hell, then why would he allow us to come into existence? How can God "love us all" if God knows we are destined for hell?
What about the people who are born in total seclusion, and never have the chance to even hear about the Bible? Why would they be equally responsible compared to the ones who willfully ignore the Bible?
It all doesn't make sense to me...

I will read the rest of the comments, but why would you think GOD lets us go to hell? Hell is a Catholic invention. It has nothing to do with GOD. The bible is a human invention also.

GOD is just GOD in my opinion. no religion, just the creator.

We are actually discussing this in church this weekend among with other controversial topics such as abortion and suicide and how you get to hell. Ill get back to you after the service. It should be an interesting one

god doesn't as god doesn't exist. Simples

Originally posted by jimmyx

...blaming "evil" on some outside source is childish and can lead to destructive actions...

Great observation. Too bad most of the discussion is going to pass right by this important issue. Most of the religionist replies seem to just regurgitate what they learned as children, what they were told in their churches, etc. A few even get mileage out of quoting the Book. That's got to feel great, being able to throw ancient scripture into a discussion, somehow presuming it just has to be relevant.

SO, what about the MORALITY (or ethics) of a belief in Hell? I agree with you that it is germane to the discussion! But how many will just brush it off, because they don't see a scripture verse?

OK, so let's think about it. Maybe your religious sect is convinced that blood transfusions are wrong. But alas, your precious child has fallen ill! The doctors have told you and your spouse that she will die without the transfusion. Surely they are Satan's minions in white coats! But for some reason, Mama is having doubts. She sees her child in this terrible circumstance, and while she honestly tries to listen to her husband, and she does suspect the devil is "tempting" her, she is the "weaker vessel" after all!

Perhaps it is only when a person faces up to something real in their life, that the blinders finally fall off. In the above example, Mama was perfectly convinced that transfusions were evil--until her baby needed one. Suddenly, the universe changes! As observers, we await her decision, and might even venture to suggest that the mother finds herself in a MORAL dilemma. All scripture aside, what "should" she do?

And so it may be with "Hell", and those who truly (seem to) believe in it. Only when confronted by something "real", will the believer even find out if they ever really believed it! But when it comes to real morality, that is as it should be. I might even say, "thank God" there is still something in most of us, regardless of the lies we have been taught.

I could go on with other examples, but the real "moral" question the believer in Hell must ask themselves is not even connected to what they were told "God" may think on the matter. Because somewhere within themselves, they may already "know" that believing in such a terrible thing is very, very wrong, on too many levels.

How can I look at another person and tell myself they are likely to be "damned", and then imagine I should escape that fate myself? A psychiatrist might want to weigh in, but what kind of "complex" would I be suffering from? To imagine that ANYONE "deserves" such a terrible fate...what kind of person would I be, if that's the kind of thing I chose to imagine about my fellow human being?

I would even submit that I might even ACT differently (as you so succinctly pointed out). Perhaps on the battlefield, I might more easily kill the infidel (quite useful!), but when all was done, and I came home from the battle, what would remain? Hopefully, some realization that the "enemy" was no different than me. As I looked into their faces, seconds before they died, what did I see? A soul about to fall into the abyss? Or perhaps just a scared person, who could have been...well, God knows.

Anyway, I'd love to see more posts like yours, people who see that belief in Hell is not just inaccurate or foolish, but literally WRONG, morally speaking, and debases us as people.

JR

The old dillema that will sit still for some: Free will vs. God's omniscience...

There's no hell or reincarnation either.
These are only terms created by the catholic church, the same one that discourage all to read that old book sitting at the shelf, where you will not find them words...
Discussing themes we don't even stop to read and study about will lead nowhere.

Originally posted by Astyanax

Originally posted by The Endtime Warrior
Well if [God] is responsible for suffering and misery, then he is responsible for everything else too. So the way you think is because of god right? God makes you think the way you do? Its all his thoughts in your mind? Even you know this is a silly notion.

Please explain to me how this notion is silly. Omnipotence implies universal responsibility. If God sees evil happening, can correct it but does not, then He is responsible for the evil because he could and should have prevented it.

Think harder. Think more clearly.

God, Creator, the One Creator, call our Maker what you will. Everything is a part of our maker, be it good or bad, is a balance of both. Everything has within it, a balance of both. Where there is unbalance, balance will return, as what we will soon see in the unbalance around us now. Our maker allows us the freedom to live a life of good, or bad,(through free will) it is up to each of us. We can either live a life of nothing but good, or a life of nothing but bad, and sometimes a life of both. We draw from either one that is within us. We are allowed to experience either, or both. But, when one side or the other tips the balance, it will be brought back in line. One can say, yes, our maker will fix this, and beings we are a part of our maker, that includes us. Our maker + us = one, or all. We are all given free will, and if that free will causes an unbalance, the all or one will fix it.

Think about this, and I`m not saying the bible is all correct, but, one thing that does relate to what I am talking about is this. When you read the passage that says, when the Christ returns, the Christ will rein for a thousand years. Ok, let`s just say, that Christ is the balance for now. If that is the case, does that mean there will ba another period of unbalance after that, one way or the other? Could very well be, if you think about it.

By using just one or the other in our life, that creates the unbalance, and we know this. The use of free will teaches us this. And as a part of the Maker, we are self correcting, we will fully understand from the unbalance, that we were wrong. In short, when we finally figure out that it is we that causes the unbalance, we self correct it, and we will grow from that learning. So, when we DO finally learn to keep a balance within ourselves, there will not be a need to return to this school again.

Ok, it`s time I put on my flame resistant suit now.

[edit on 10-7-2010 by FiatLux]

reply to post by JR MacBeth


As far as the morality of a belief in hell goes, I look at it in a different way. Which way we go, Heaven or Hell, begins with what we create for ourselves here, and it lingers after death. It's our state of mind/soul.

If we have actively created suffering, guilt, and misery for ourselves and others due to our mindset and actions, how would that be different, or be suddenly, magically better after death if we don't already take steps to redress wrongs and change our thinking to something more positive while we're still here? It's up to us to fix it, but we can. And God will help us do that if we ask Him.

If we have lived in love with others to the best of our ability, have worked on being the best person we can and have forgiven ourselves and others for wrongs and failings, then we've already been creating Heaven for ourselves while we're here.

Just to comment on the blood transfusion topic, I'm not really sure where in the Bible that would come from. But from my understanding, there is bit of practical advice on medical/health issues in the Bible (hand washing, preventing the spread of leaprosy, etc.). So it could be that at the time the Bible was written, this was another piece of practical medical wisdom to prevent complications of giving blood, as at the time there was no way to determine blood type or screen for harmful bloodborne diseases. But if that's the case, then of course it wouldn't be relevant today.



[edit on 10-7-2010 by Ariel]

[edit on 10-7-2010 by Ariel]

reply to post by HSDA83


What is there then? We die and blackout. Nothing. No soul?

I advise you take a look and read some of the informations about near death experiences:

www.near-death.com...

Why do you guys hold it on religion, there are so many religions out there with similarities but different in perspective. Today's religions were just a way to explain things to people at that time in a way so they may understand. In a way they are outdated, they create wars, fanatics. For example, I think Jesus was this enlighten person and maybe he did transcend somewhere. He did stand out in the crowd, and maybe he told people how to be. Be good do good, just as I'm sure the other figures from the other religions did as well. But today people are twisting things around, changing them so it may serve the needs they have, like wage war in the name of Jesus or Islam when in fact these religions preached something else. But what would the control freaks do
if they could not turn it around, they had to somehow twist things and impose fear on people.

Fear is normal, any regular person has it. If you see a caged animal break
from the cage like a tiger for example that is rushing on you, you will have fear. Fear will warn you something is wrong, like an alarm.

I just hate it when they use it on people because they them self are not developed to come to an understanding that imposing your will on others does not bring you anything, it has no value, only regression.

They are not brave, if you can hit back and the shark becomes the pray they will find out they are not superior beings and it's back to normal from super crap mode to regular person.

Damn monkeys. There is god without religion, I know there is, the force.

reply to post by Ariel


"As far as the morality of a belief in hell goes, I look at it in a different way. Which way we go, Heaven or Hell, begins with what we create for ourselves here, and it lingers after death. It's our state of mind/soul. If we have actively created suffering, guilt, and misery for ourselves and others due to our mindset and actions, how would that be different, or be suddenly, magically better after death if we don't already take steps to redress wrongs and change our thinking to something more positive while we're still here? It's up to us to fix it, but we can. And God will help us do that if we ask Him.

If we have lived in love with others to the best of our ability, have worked on being the best person we can and have forgiven ourselves and others for wrongs and failings, then we've already been creating Heaven for ourselves while we're here."
------------------------------

Thanks Ariel, nice to see someone willing to think about any issue these days, within a moral context.

If I understand what you're saying, you subscribe to a Karmic system of transcendent justice, we essentially reap what we sow, and when we die, not much changes, for better or worse. Well, that's pretty standard, and not necessarily unreasonable of course.

It's interesting that most people do in fact have a certain common sense about these things. It doesn't always translate that way, but I try to read between the lines. The problem of course is not Karma, or justice being served, or people reaping what they sow. In fact it's the very opposite. Hell is a manifest lack of justice in any reasonable sense. Hell seems to be an Axe in the hands of a madman, when what is called for is a scalpel in the hand of the "Divine Physician."

This is a problem for a number of reasons, but what I was focusing on in my recent post about it, was the logical consequence of "believing" a terrible thing like Hell. It was more of an introspective approach, but I was hoping that my attempt would show how debasing the belief is for those who hold it. Instead of focusing on the mundane Karmic aspect of the belief in Hell (which doesn't work due to the fact that Hell is hardly "just"), "creating suffering", as you put it, I felt it was important to shift the focus back on what that terrible belief does to us, if we choose to hold on to it.

OK, I said that a few different ways, but the bottom line is that whether Hell be true, or not, belief in it is of itself an indication of a kind of "moral deficiency" in those who cling to it, no offense intended...

In other words, by merely believing in Hell, you would be "bad"! Bold, no doubt controversial in this thread put in that manner, but as I'm sure most Christians would agree, "Beliefs DO matter." Forgive the hyperbole, but it's too easy to blow right past the most important points otherwise.

Which is why I used the transfusion example. Whether it's in the Bible or not is actually irrelevant, and should just serve to underscore the point even more. Whether this or that religious sect has it right, or wrong, well perhaps that DOES matter! As in the case of the child, who might literally die due to her parents faulty beliefs, there is a point where "beliefs" might become a moral issue, and in fact, society recognizes this as well, if famous court cases be any indication.

And so in my example, the mother of the child needing the transfusion is forced by circumstances to face up to what has now become, not merely a "faith" issue, but a true moral issue as well.

The key to getting around it all is for us to recognize at some level the preliminary "need" for that illuminating proverbial "moment of truth" to begin with.

Of course, most of us may not get dramatic opportunities for real experiential "enlightenment", but all the same, what this could indicate is that many of us are walking around, seemingly "believing" (even the unbelievable), and it would not be until we faced that critical "moment", that the scales would fall from our eyes. Surely, when such a circumstance presented itself, we might be the most surprised of all to see what we were really about (all along).

All this being said, I should still acknowledge a certain practical "wisdom" concerning a rationale for Hell, that may still prove to outweigh microcosmic morality. If in fact the doctrine does serve to restrain the masses from a macro-cosmic indulgence in immorality, then the ancients were probably correct in establishing the monstrous thing. And no, contrary to a number of posters I have read here, the Catholics didn't dream up Hell, the pagan world had it first, and the noble Greeks and Romans spoke openly about how the belief was created specifically to help rule the unruly mob.

And so, maybe the belief should stay for the time being. With only the occasional individual figuring out the falsity of it, society can just continue along on it's path of high ideals...uh, or else maybe it's why there are so few high ideals to begin with...

Another can of worms!

JR