Thou shalt not make graven images

reply to post by helen670


Interested point about the Ark of the Covenant, But:

Only the high priest viewed the ark, and only once a year.

The bearers of the Ark were not to touch it, to do so actually incurred death.

The Ark served a very specific purpose, and was specifically called for and designed by God. It was not used in worship by the population of Israel.



The golden calf, created by Hebrews while Moses was on Mt. Sinai is more analogous. They said the image was going to be used to worship God. It was not, and did not honor Him.


Jesus never commanded his servants to make images of him or the instrument of his death, and use them in worship.

Jesus did not need images to identify himself as God's son.


Our actions, should prove who we are, and who we serve.

Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims and Jews make graven images as well.

Reason G-d knocked the crap out of that statue this week. ( the skeptic says...just a coincident...the christian says it was the devil or antichrist...G-d says...it was him
(fish's, crucifixes, torah talmud books in the doorways, hexagrams or star of david if you want to water it down.

Then ya got freemasons, oTo, wiccans, pagans, Bohemian Grove Owl club.

Ya realize G-d doesn't care or love you any more with the symbolism;s, chants and ceremonies.
I hope you do know that.

Relax...stop fighting and seeking approval

[edit on 16-6-2010 by superluminal11]

reply to post by Titen-Sxull

s for the question at hand, I don't know why they make graven images - maybe its part of that "The old testament law doesn't apply to us" cop-out they always use to squirm their way out of uncomfortable realizations.

In this case, the Bible is on your side, Titen.

reply to post by catwhoknows


Look don't include the Protestant Christians in with the Catholic Christians and the organization in Rome.

You really,really need to do a little bit of research on the reformation and people like Luther and Calvin.

Not all Christians worship craven images.

Besides you do know that commandment the Catholic church removed.

They also split the 9th commandment into so there would still be 10.

I personally like the 10th because it says "do not covet thy neighbors property".

I suppose millions of Mexican Catholics never read that one.

Actually most Catholics have never even read the bible at all.

It is never read from during mass and if you were to enter a Catholic household there will be a altar with the Virgin Mary and a dust covered bible in front of it.

Protestant Christians believe Mary was just a person.

Catholics pray to her as if she was just as important as Jesus.

Catholics baptize babies.

Protestants do not.

Catholic "Christians" led by that organization in Rome have been responsible for the deaths of nearly a billion innocent people.

The Spanish Conquistadors,the European Crusaders all were organized by and paid for by the Catholic church or it's royal representatives.

The Catholic church even spreads the false belief that Peter the Apostle was the first pope.

Peter was married.

Jesus performed a miracle and saved Peter's mother-in-laws life.

DO NOT confuse Catholics with Protestant Christianity.

Protestants believe no mortal man can represent god on earth.

And particularly one as evil as to allow pedophiles to molest innocent children,by the hundreds of thousands worldwide.

They will all burn in their own hell,some day.

A "graven image" has been struck down.

Pretty amazing.

I rest my case.

Originally posted by dusty1
reply to post by helen670

 

Interested point about the Ark of the Covenant, But:

Only the high priest viewed the ark, and only once a year.

The bearers of the Ark were not to touch it, to do so actually incurred death.

The Ark served a very specific purpose, and was specifically called for and designed by God. It was not used in worship by the population of Israel.



The golden calf, created by Hebrews while Moses was on Mt. Sinai is more analogous. They said the image was going to be used to worship God. It was not, and did not honor Him.


Jesus never commanded his servants to make images of him or the instrument of his death, and use them in worship.

Jesus did not need images to identify himself as God's son.


Our actions, should prove who we are, and who we serve.

Hi Dusty/

Did you know that the 'Ark of the covenant' that God asked Moses to build was also prophecy of what was to come in the New Covenant?
Higher meaning of the 'Ark of the Covenant''
The Bible is clear that God revealed to Israel how to worship, and it was patterned after things in heaven.
[1] These specific forms or liturgies of worship were first seen in the Tabernacle of the early Israelites, and were consummated in the Temple worship which took place later in Jerusalem.

It is from the Old that the New began!
It was a fullfillement of the Old Testament into the New Testament.

The honoring of God's saints, their icons and relics (holy remains) does not contradict the second commandment. Angels and saints should be considered our elder brothers who help us to attain salvation and pray for us before the throne of God (Rev 5:8). The Lord Himself enjoined: "Pray for each other." As we know from the Gospels, the Lord always helped those for whom others interceded.

~meaning of the TEN COMMANDMENTS~


"Behold I make all things new" (Rev. 21:5).
It is true that Jesus Christ did not need images to prove who He was/Is!
He also left His image on a cloth....
The history of the icon of Christ "not made by hand" goes back to a miracle that Jesus performed for king Abgar of Edessa when, at the king's request, Jesus restored the king's health....READ MORE

Yes, our actions indeed prove who we are,not to the people, but to God who knows everyones true intentions!
This is why we need 'Gods Mercy' to save us, and not some modern idea of whom Jesus Christ is!

ICXC NIKA
helen

Originally posted by Oneolddude
Besides you do know that commandment the Catholic church removed.

I was raised Catholic and was "taught" that the first

1st I am the LORD thy God. Thou shalt have no strange gods before Me.

Was meant to include that idea that idols were examples of the strange gods you were not suppose to have. Then again, I was told that in a Catholic Church full of statues, stained glass pictures, and paintings so needless to say I did not get that. I also did not understand why 1 should now include 2 but we needed to make a distinction between the neighbor's wife and his other good. Growing up Catholic felt much to me like they just make it up as they go along.

Originally posted by dusty1
The Ark served a very specific purpose, and was specifically called for and designed by God.

The cross was a design by God which served a very specific purpose, it was the method He had chosen His son's death upon so that we may never forget the price that was paid for our place in heaven for those who choose to believe.

Originally posted by dusty1
It was not used in worship by the population of Israel.

A cross is not worshipped by Christians. The Ark was indeed used in worship, it is how the priests communed with God.

Originally posted by dusty1
The golden calf, created by Hebrews while Moses was on Mt. Sinai is more analogous. They said the image was going to be used to worship God. It was not, and did not honor Him.

Yes the Golden Calf was worshipped:

"They have been quick to turn away from what I commanded them and have made themselves an idol cast in the shape of a calf. They have bowed down to it and sacrificed to it and have said, 'These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.'" - Exodus 32:8

God is very specific of the law that is broken. Again, the cross is not worshipped, nor is it considered a god.

Originally posted by dusty1
Our actions, should prove who we are, and who we serve.

I understand the need of the opposition to mute what I believe, though respectfully disagree. My actions show what I do, not Who or why I do them.

[edit on 17-6-2010 by saint4God]

Being a Christian myself believing in both OT/NT I chose to renounce the Catholic religion as a youth as I couldn't reconcile its history, beliefs & practices any longer--inc. the rampant idolatry/Mariolatry within the institution--with my understanding of the Bible. I believe the 2nd commandment prohibits all idolatry, which is so pervasive in society e.g. celebrity worship, materialism, money hungry attitude, pornography, etc. & that my Christian faith should be demonstrated through my convictions & acts not as some token gesture via trinkets/tattoos. Like others I too have questioned whether the 2nd commandment prohibits the host of media in use in our image saturated society e.g. photos, movies, tv, etc. since "image is everything" or as its mirror image has it, "everything is image" & Levenda (vol 3 Sinister Forces) observes:

The Greek word from which we get “fantasy”-fantasia-is translated as “imagination, the power by which an object is presented to the mind (the object presented being fantasma)”, & was common usage in the age of Plato & Aristotle. It represents a surprisingly prescient understanding of how the brain “sees”: an object is presented to the brain as a phantom, as an image. In other words, there is an intermediate step between the perception of an object & its appearance in the brain: the image. The ancient Greeks understood this &, later, the Renaissance philosopher-magicians who realized that in this image-making faculty of the brain there resides great power, for the brain relies on images exclusively, & treats everything it “sees”-trees, sky, people, artifacts-as images. It is not dissuasive that the images thus perceived also bring with them sounds, & smells, & tactile sensations. These are all part of the complex “image” created by the brain in order to contemplate “reality”. To the Renaissance magician, this entire construct could be fabricated in order to cause change to occur in the world: focus on the image itself, on the “technology” of the image, & one could obtain tremendous power, for the language of the brain is image. Image is reality, & reality is nothing more than one long propaganda film.

& vv elsewhere noted in Scripture are clear re God's intention:

Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: Lest ye corrupt yourselves, & make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air, The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth: & lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, & when thou seest the sun, & the moon, & the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven--Dt 4:15-19

The graven image of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it unto thee, lest thou be snared therein: for it is an abomination to the LORD thy God. Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thine house, lest thou be a cursed thing like it: but thou shalt utterly detest it, & thou shalt utterly abhor it; for it is a cursed thing--Dt 7:25-26

Ye shall utterly destroy all the places, wherein the nations which ye shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, & upon the hills, & under every green tree: & ye shall overthrow their altars, & break their pillars, & burn their groves with fire; & ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, & destroy the names of them out of that place--Dt 12:2-3

Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, & destroy all their pictures, & destroy all their molten images, & quite pluck down all their high places--Nu 33:52

Originally posted by catwhoknows
reply to post by ignorant_ape

 

Yes, the Russians do as well, thank you, ig ape.

My point is, why do these so-called belevers in God do what He says not to do?

Do not kill for example, yet it is stated in Genesis if a town/city/settlement is found to be worshipping another god, they should be killed. Same with lusting after women, can every religion person say they have never had a lustful thought, ask a preist who has raped a child.

The bible is full of contradictions, it's total control. The tyranny and enslavement to a metaphysical concept that can never be proved has to end for sake of love, freedom and an outlook based on love for the human race.

EDIT to ADD:

"Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, & destroy all their pictures, & destroy all their molten images, & quite pluck down all their high places--Nu 33:52"

What a really nice god, that's me believing now, a converted atheist. Im going to start praying to him because if a book says he's real, he must be, i'll just have my faith, my prayers will manifest i'm sure. Jesus save us, i mean God ermm....


[edit on 17/6/10 by awake_and_aware]

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
Do not kill for example,

The Bible does not say "Do not kill".

The Bible says, "You shall not murder" - Exodus 20:13

Once we know the difference between the two, then we can begin to discuss why there is one. Further off the original topic however and there are many versions of this discussion not only already out there, but already addressed.

[edit on 17-6-2010 by saint4God]

reply to post by saint4God

The cross was a design by God which served a very specific purpose, it was the method He had chosen His son's death upon so that we may never forget the price that was paid for our place in heaven for those who choose to believe.

Jesus shed blood is what paved the way for the forgiveness of sin and everlasting life. The Lord's Supper is the reminder of his sacrifice and a command. Luke 22:19 1 Corinthians 11:24

A cross is not worshipped by Christians. The Ark was indeed used in worship, it is how the priests communed with God.

The Ark was used in worship by the High Priest alone. He was the only one to view the Ark, without the vail (Exodus 40:3) and only once a year, when he sprinkled blood on the mercy seat. As you know, this was done as an atonement for the sins of Israel. Leviticus 16:1-17 Hebrews 9:7

Israelites did not wear small versions of the Ark around their necks. They did not view or touch the Ark.

The Ark was so holy, its bearers were not to touch it, so that they would not die. Numbers 4:15 2 Samuel 6:2-11 1Chronicles 13:1-11

I understand the need of the opposition to mute what I believe, though respectfully disagree. My actions show what I do, not Who or why I do them.

Yes brother, but as James 2:17 says "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone"




If someone you loved dearly, was murdered in cold blood, would you venerate the object used to kill them?

[edit on 17-6-2010 by dusty1]

We agree on most points in your last post. I agree faith needs to be met with action, though faith can be shown as well in addition to action. Action alone typically does not show faith. There's a clarity of communication that can be established.

Originally posted by dusty1
If someone you loved dearly, was murdered in cold blood, would you venerate the object used to kill them?

I don't venerate any object, cross included. The cross is a sign, the same sign mentioned repeatedly in the New Testament. It is also a reminder of the cross we are to carry when following our saviour:

"and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me." - Matthew 10:38

"For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power." - 1 Corinthians 1:17

"May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world." - Galatians 6:14

Certainly it would be better if I were to say to everyone I ever see, "I believe in what Christ did for me on the cross!" but most people already know what the cross means and therefore know what I believe when they see the cross. Those who do not know typically ask. For me, it's an unobtrusive way of opening a discussion...but I have to admit, after hearing a lot of these responses, I'm wondering if I should put it away the symbolic seal and instead preach on the street corner. Which do you feel is more effective? Why?

[edit on 17-6-2010 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God

Certainly it would be better if I were to say to everyone I ever see, "I believe in what Christ did for me on the cross!" but most people already know what the cross means and therefore know what I believe when they see the cross. Those who do not know typically ask. For me, it's an unobtrusive way of opening a discussion...but I have to admit, after hearing a lot of these responses, I'm wondering if I should put it away the symbolic seal and instead preach on the street corner. Which do you feel is more effective? Why?

[edit on 17-6-2010 by saint4God]

Whether Christ died on the cross or not, no-one has the right to claim he died for future generations, died for our "sins"...that means before i was even born i was bound to Jesus because a human sacrifice took place that good people were not there to stop.

I don't care what he believes, he doesn't have the right to say he died for our "sins" when looking at quotes in the bible, sins are often subjective, and in the bible those sins fall under the subject of stupidity and ignorance, and an illogical path of imorality; Stoning, abusing, killing and generally made up to control people, This bible isn't a book of "good" at all.

The religious often quote there texts, but they fail to see the contradictions, things that they don't even believe even though it comes from this "Holy" scripture they keep boasting about... theres no respect for an adherence to a master, to slavery because . Here's some more quotes that i enjoy:-

Anyone who dreams or prophesizes anything that is against God, or anyone who tries to turn you from God, is to be put to death. (Deuteronomy 13:5)

If you find out a city worships a different god, destroy the city and kill all of it's inhabitants... even the animals. (Deuteronomy 13:12-15)

Kill anyone with a different religion. (Deuteronomy 17:2-7)

If a man or woman has sex with an animal, both human and animal must be killed. (Leviticus 20:15-16).

They just pick and choose which things they like, and call themself a true follower of their god. How can you trust these scriptures when some of their idealogy reaks of this "evil" they keep babbling on about. Lets think about who's the evil ones, the people who created the bible and distributed it?

Lets think about who is more logical, more reasoning, more careful in thought for not believing in something that cannot be proved.

[edit on 18/6/10 by awake_and_aware]

[edit on 18/6/10 by awake_and_aware]

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
Whether Christ died on the cross or not, no-one has the right to claim he died for future generations,

Why not? Are you willing and able to limit God's rights?

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
I don't care what he believes,

This isn't a point of contention.

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
he doesn't have the right to say he died for our "sins"

This is the second time being said, see questions above.

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
when looking at quotes in the bible, sins are often subjective, and in the bible those sins fall under the subject of stupidity and ignorance,

Stupidity yes, ignorance, no. There is a very important and distinct difference.

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
Stoning, abusing, killing and generally made up to control people,

Please substantiate this statement.

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
The religious often quote there texts, but they fail to see the contradictions, things that they don't even believe even though it comes from this "Holy" scripture they keep boasting about...

If they don't believe it, then surely they're not a follower. We can at least agree on this, yes?

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
theres no respect for an adherence to a master, to slavery because . Here's some more quotes that i enjoy:-

Anyone who dreams or prophesizes anything that is against God, or anyone who tries to turn you from God, is to be put to death. (Deuteronomy 13:5)

Read from the beginning of that chapter please to know what this passage is talking about:

"If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," - Deuteronomy 13:1-2. Same as having no other gods, it is consistent with the 10 commandments and the law given to the Levites. This was the Law people required. Times then were rough times, I will not dispute that. Flash forward to Christ who teaches a new way (New Testament) after centuries of seeking God's forgiveness for poor decisions. Jesus was a saviour not only from sin, but from the harsh judgement by the old law.

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
They just pick and choose which things they like, and call themself a true follower of their god. How can you trust these scriptures when some of their idealogy reaks of this "evil" they keep babbling on about. Lets think about who's the evil ones, the people who created the bible and distributed it?

Lets think about who is more logical, more reasoning, more careful in thought for not believing in something that cannot be proved.

It can be proved, although you've not received your proof yet. I'd be glad to help anyone who is sincerely interested.


[edit on 18-6-2010 by saint4God]

You all have to back up and ask yourselves why would the Bible prohibit graven images?

Making a statue seems like a pretty innocuous act. Why should it be a sin, let alone one of the big 10 sins.

Perhaps we need to look at the harm idols caused ancients.

For starters, idols are just statues. They are powerless, they can do nothing for us. Yet many ancients looked to idols for help, especially during difficult times in their lives. People in the idol business in ancient times, just as many religions do today, capitalized and exploited desperate people.

Second, resources like metal or other materials, were often scarce in ancient times. It was a waste of resources for people, especially desperate people, to make or use idols. For example, a poor farmer would be better off buying a metal tool he could use in his fields than a worthless metal idol.

Keeping these two things in mind, let us get back to modern religions and their use of idols. The test as to whether somebody is committing idolatry should be (1) is a desperate person being deceived into using or relying upon a useless thing or (2) are resources being wasted on a useless thing. Some statues that pop up in churches are neither of these things. Some are.

So don't feel bad about hanging that plastic budha you got in a gumball machine if you think it looks cool. Do feel bad when you go into a church in a poor neighborhood and see a solid gold Jesus statue. Do feel bad when you see somebody buying 80 Virgin Mary candles because they think it is going to cure their child's cancer.

Originally posted by hotpinkurinalmint
You all have to back up and ask yourselves why would the Bible prohibit graven images?

Making a statue seems like a pretty innocuous act. Why should it be a sin, let alone one of the big 10 sins.

Perhaps we need to look at the harm idols caused ancients.

For starters, idols are just statues. They are powerless, they can do nothing for us. Yet many ancients looked to idols for help, especially during difficult times in their lives. People in the idol business in ancient times, just as many religions do today, capitalized and exploited desperate people.

Second, resources like metal or other materials, were often scarce in ancient times. It was a waste of resources for people, especially desperate people, to make or use idols. For example, a poor farmer would be better off buying a metal tool he could use in his fields than a worthless metal idol.

Keeping these two things in mind, let us get back to modern religions and their use of idols. The test as to whether somebody is committing idolatry should be (1) is a desperate person being deceived into using or relying upon a useless thing or (2) are resources being wasted on a useless thing. Some statues that pop up in churches are neither of these things. Some are.

So don't feel bad about hanging that plastic budha you got in a gumball machine if you think it looks cool. Do feel bad when you go into a church in a poor neighborhood and see a solid gold Jesus statue. Do feel bad when you see somebody buying 80 Virgin Mary candles because they think it is going to cure their child's cancer.

#1 God is number one, don't worship any other god.

Here's another bull rule to control the people. Someone of them are obvious ideas, don't kill, don't steal. People understand these are right, but adultary, what happens if you're girlfriend condones it? Honour thy mother and father? what happens if they beat you up? Its full of rules and control to get the people to abide by a governing cosmic superforce.

Anyone who still believes this, their intellgience MUST be questioned, they can't just play the faith card and expect respect.

reply to post by saint4God

but I have to admit, after hearing a lot of these responses, I'm wondering if I should put it away the symbolic seal and instead preach on the street corner. Which do you feel is more effective? Why?

No matter what you do, you have to be prepared with Bible based answers, to peoples questions. Titus 1:9

reply to post by awake_and_aware


If you read things to literally and not critically (which many religious people do by the way) the Bible is silly and leads to absurd results. With regards to "honor thy mother and father," it makes sense that there should be exceptions if your mother and father are acting dishonorably. Perhaps the best thing you could do to honor a parent that is acting destructively is to get them help and right their destructive behavior, even if that means temporarily abandoning your parents.

You are correct in that people who blindly put their faith in any god or gods without much thought are acting irrationally. Perhaps this is where the ban on idolatry comes in. Wasting your time on any false god is not only foolish, but counterproductive and destructive. We can both agree that there are many Christians, Jews, and Muslims who claim not to be idolatrous, yet they waste so much time and energy pursuing a false god.

reply to post by awake_and_aware

Anyone who still believes this, their intellgience MUST be questioned, they can't just play the faith card and expect respect.

Respect has to be earned. You show a lack of respect to those with faith.


The problem with the world has always been this, people want to pick and choose what is right and wrong. We are fast approaching a world in which EVERYONE has a different view of right and wrong.

Surely you see the need for laws.

More important though, is living by principles.


Do to others, as you would have them, do to you.