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Thou shalt not make graven images

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posted on Jun, 15 2010 @ 07:10 AM
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reply to post by ccsct203
 


i love how you leave out baptism.

all those scriptures and quotes, and your leaving out some of the most important of all....

the biggest puzzler, is that the same people your quoting from were the biggest advocates of baptism of them all. but im sure you knew that..




posted on Jun, 15 2010 @ 07:20 AM
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posted on Jun, 15 2010 @ 07:25 AM
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reply to post by catwhoknows
 


In my bible it says something else.
The exact translation from Dutch to English is :

You should not make images from the heaven as well from beneath the waters.
More or less...

What do you make of that



posted on Jun, 15 2010 @ 09:00 AM
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reply to post by ovenden
 


I think you nailed it there... graven images can be considered art... but when one is used as an idol or altar or something that is intertwined with faith thats when it becomes a bad thing... so... the cross worn by many christians around the neck or in the homes is one of the many things keeping them from the true faith...

now the logical next question is WHO introduced these practices in christianity?



posted on Jun, 15 2010 @ 09:31 AM
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GOD does not like images or the mockery of him or his son... and I will leave you with proof.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Love you guys and thanks for the post.



posted on Jun, 15 2010 @ 09:34 AM
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most religious people are just spoiled hypocrites.

using the cross symbol or a star is proof to that point.



posted on Jun, 15 2010 @ 09:54 AM
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reply to post by theuhstuf
 


same goes for the pretty star one puts on top of his christmas tree... heck this goes for the whole idea of christmas

Truth is that these days christians practice so many different things like christmas or easter or using the cross and portraying jesus like some weakling (just watch out for it... almost every depiction of Jesus Christ has him being very fragile and weaklooking..) If there is one thing he WASN'T it would be weak..

None of these practices is either mentioned and/or aproved of in the bible...

Christianity these days is far from what it was meant to be...

[edit on 15/6/2010 by faceoff85]



posted on Jun, 15 2010 @ 09:59 AM
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reply to post by catwhoknows
 


I think the commandment should be re-written as:

"Thou shalt not cover a condutive metal frame with flammable materials and try to pass it off as a tribute."

-OR-

"Thou shalt not waste money on crappy sculpture. Use thine money to feed the hungry, clothe the poor and give refuge to the destitute"



posted on Jun, 15 2010 @ 10:15 AM
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reply to post by dontblink
 


i agree

this " statue " was a lightening strike magnet

1 - a steel supporting frame

2 height - 20m above the surrounding area

3 thermal properties - the fibreglass shell would create a hot zone which would form a collum of warm air above the statue -

laatly - did it [ the statue ] have correctly bonded lightening conductorts ?

the fact that a single strike started a catastrophic fire would suggest it didnt



posted on Jun, 15 2010 @ 10:32 AM
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Ex20:4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God...


Graven image of Christ destroyed by lightning: news.yahoo.com...


Lev 26:1 1 "Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am the LORD your God."


People tend to worship things that they can see such as idols. People will worship anything; pieces of wood, stone, gold, shells, trophies, etc. However, God wants us to believe in Him, who is temporarily unseen. The idols of this world are passing away but God is forever.


1 John 2:17 The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.


Incidentally, just because the Catholic Church or any other christian church does something doesn't mean that it is right. For example, Catholics call priests 'father' even though the Bible says not to. Just because someone claims to be christian doesn't mean they follow Christ and the Bible.


Matthew 23:9 And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.



posted on Jun, 15 2010 @ 10:51 AM
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This is difficult for me. I feel deep down that it is wrong to wear a cross, but at the same time I want people to know I am a Christian and that i'm proud amongst my muslim neighbours to say so. Looking at me, i'm just a regular guy, so for me it is my way of letting people know where my allegiance lies.

I've just taken my cross off though, as it is more important to follow the Bible than deciding for myself. However it might get put back on again. Consider this:
Num 21:9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

Moses was directed by God to make an image of a serpent and when it was looked upon it healed.



posted on Jun, 15 2010 @ 10:56 AM
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I would like to say that it is also against God to make the symbol of the cross with your fingers as many believers in Jesus do. Also, many believe it is through Jesus you will gain favor in Gods eyes. This is a lie. If you are a gentile, you will have a place in heaven if you follow the seven laws of Noah. There is no need for Jesus and going through him to reach God is a sin, and you won't be able to do it.



posted on Jun, 15 2010 @ 11:23 AM
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reply to post by aboxoftrix
 


Those are pretty bold statements. Do you care to qualify any of them?



posted on Jun, 16 2010 @ 09:36 PM
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Originally posted by sinthia
... I want people to know I am a Christian and that i'm proud amongst my muslim neighbours to say so. Looking at me, i'm just a regular guy, so for me it is my way of letting people know where my allegiance lies.


Wear your symbol people, whatever it is. Who knows, it may start an interesting conversation. I cannot understand why anyone no matter what religion, nationality, race or culture would wish to hide it. I guess we could walk around ignorant about what others think, feel, and believe and deceive ourselves that everyone is exactly the same, but for what purpose?


Originally posted by sinthia
Consider this:
Num 21:9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

Moses was directed by God to make an image of a serpent and when it was looked upon it healed.


Interesting, thank you for this addition.



posted on Jun, 16 2010 @ 10:00 PM
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*Chuckle, chuckle*
Perhaps the Hebrew God of the Old Testament KNEW ahead of time that a NEW God-man was going to be INVENTED in a SECOND part of the Bible (New Testament) in which it would be CLAIMED that this NEW God-man (Jesus) was to be God's EQUIVALENT, and therefore the reason the Hebrew God SPECIFICALLY, and CLEARLY said NO to graven images WAY, WAY, AHEAD OF TIME!!!!

Unlike most things in the Bible, THIS COMMANDMENT IS VERY CLEAR!!!

So Christians, WHATS THE DEAL?

It seems the faith is crumbling now as people are STARTING TO QUESTION THE FAITH and RESEARCHING it outside the "box".

Oh yea, and WHY is God striking this statue of our "Savior" Man-God Jesus with LIGHTENING?!!
God wouldn't do such a thing to his REAL Son would he? WOULD HE??

I think this is as CLEAR A SIGN AS EVER!! Lightening?! It doesn't get ANY clearer than THAT!!


[edit on 16-6-2010 by Shine71]



posted on Jun, 16 2010 @ 10:07 PM
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reply to post by catwhoknows
 


Another question would be why don't Christians who believe in the ten commandments protest against freedom of religion.

Yahweh clearly states: Thou shalt have no other gods before me

If worshiping any other God than Yahweh is a sin where are the Christian protest groups claiming that Freedom of Religion is a bad thing? This also decimates the common argument that American law and values are based on the ten commandments (what a crock) - then why did the founding fathers protect our right to worship what and how we want?

As for the question at hand, I don't know why they make graven images - maybe its part of that "The old testament law doesn't apply to us" cop-out they always use to squirm their way out of uncomfortable realizations.



posted on Jun, 16 2010 @ 10:17 PM
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Originally posted by ancientfuturist
God does agree with the OP.

Lightning strike destroys King of Kings statue in Ohio



No he doesnt. If he did then explain why he allowed it to be built in the first place and stand for 6 years or was god on vacation at the time? Also what about ALL the other statues in the world including the most famous jesus statue of all time.

Here is a pick of the jesus statue in Rio being struck by lightning. Guess God just didnt get it right because its still there. Maybe the person who created it is more powerful than god? Oh who knows.

Jesus In RIO lightining strike



posted on Jun, 16 2010 @ 10:40 PM
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Originally posted by catwhoknows
I would like to ask people who believe in God and Jesus, who say "Thou shalt not make graven images", how that believe that they should?

Why do you make graven images?

The whole Greek nation makes graven images.

The Catholics make graven images.



Hi catwhoknows///

Graven Images....

Tell me, do you have a picture of your parents?
Girfriend?
Boyfriend?
Friends?
Grandparents?
relatives?
maybe a favourite singer,actor?
Do you 'Worship' these people that are on the picture?
Do you 'Worship' the frame it is in?
Yes?
Then this is not right!
No?
Why not?
A picture tells a thousand words!
It is a 'Reminder' of what lays beneath the surface!
It is what we see with the eye that reminds us of what is 'Holy' and what is is 'not' Holy!
eg/
If a loved one has passed away, we have a tombstone to 'remind' us of that person....we 'Do not' worship the tombstone or that which is depicted on the surface!

“Thou shalt have no graven images” (Exodus 20:4)
What does this mean?
Look at Exodus 26:1.
In God’s commands to Moses concerning the taber­nacle,
given just a few chapters after the giving of the Ten Commandments, is this instruction:
“Moreover you shall make the tabernacle with ten curtains woven of fine linen thread,
and blue and purple and scarlet yarn; with artistic designs of cherubim you shall weave them.”
And yet again....Ark of the Covenant instructed Moses to have two cherubim of hammered gold at the ends of the mercy seat. God said,
“And there I will meet with you,
and I will speak with you from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim which are on the ark of the Testimony,
of all things which I will give you in commandment to the children of Israel” (Exodus 25:22).
Here are images directly connected with the presence of God, and commanded by God!
A graven Image is that which is not from God!


And yet the Ark and the Bronze serpent........
God worked a miracle through the relics of the Prophet Elisha, through the shadow of a Saint, and through things that had merely touched a Saint.
Why?
Because God honors those who honor Him (1st Samuel 2:30),
and thus takes delight in working miracles through his Saints, even by these indirect means.
The fact that God can sanctify material things should come as no surprise to those familiar with Scripture.
Another example not only was the Altar of the Temple holy,
but anything that touched it was holy as well (Exodus 29:37)....It is Gods Will!





"Of old,
God the incorporeal and uncircumscribed was never depicted.
Now, however, when God is seen clothed in flesh,
and conversing with men,
I make an image of the God whom I see.
I do not worship matter,
I worship the God of matter,
who became matter for my sake,
and deigned to inhabit matter,
who worked out my salvation through matter.
I will not cease from honouring that matter which works my salvation.
I venerate it, though not as God.
How could God be born out of lifeless things?
And if God's body is God by union, it is immutable.
The nature of God remains the same as before,
the flesh created in time is quickened by, a logical and reasoning soul."

Doesn't Deuteronomy 4:14-19 forbid any images of God? How then can you have Icons of Christ?
This passage instructs the Jews not to make a (false) image of God, because they had not seen God, however, as Christians, we believe that God became Incarnate in the person of Jesus Christ, and so we may depict that "which we have seen with our eyes" (1st John 1:1). As St. John of Damascus said:



It is also interesting to not that 'PROPAGANDA' works wonders in Television with its FALSE images!

And to answer your quote////


The whole Greek nation makes graven images

.
NO.....It is not a Nation Greek thing,to make graven images!

It is an early Christian teaching!
Jesus Christ took flesh and gave us His image!
''The WORD(LOGOS)became flesh!

ICXC NIKA
helen



posted on Jun, 16 2010 @ 11:15 PM
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Originally posted by aboxoftrix
I would like to say that it is also against God to make the symbol of the cross with your fingers as many believers in Jesus do. Also, many believe it is through Jesus you will gain favor in Gods eyes. This is a lie. If you are a gentile, you will have a place in heaven if you follow the seven laws of Noah. There is no need for Jesus and going through him to reach God is a sin, and you won't be able to do it.


What she is meaning here is that according to jewish belief that there were 7 laws laid out for the sons and daughters of noah which really refer to all of mankind since noah and his family were all that were supposedly left after the flood. According to these 7 laws, 6 of which had already been laid out to adam and eve, gentiles would have a place in the world to come alongside the jews. It was not necessary and according to some rabbi's teachings it was even a sin for non jews to follow all the Mosaic laws. There are people today that follow this belief and they are called children of noah or naohides. However the belief that jesus is not the way and to follow him is a sin is a statement that they do not believe in jesus as the saviour of sins. Christians who do believe this believe that they are no longer compelled by the law but by a new testament and commandment that jesus gave. That salvation does not come from observance of the law alone but by belief in jesus christ as mediator between man and god. For no man comes to the father except by me John 14:6



posted on Jun, 16 2010 @ 11:25 PM
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As far as a reply to the topic of the OP, this debate is not new nor is it ever going to be resolved because the answer to this lies squarly in your interpretation of graven image. This is a debate that has been raging for thousands of years and depending on what makes you feel comfortable and ok to do then do it i say. Also depending on your idea of veneration and worship.


For the fella who decided he wont wear his cross anymore then i ask you this. If you feel your moved by the spirit of god and that the holy spirit is in you and you follow the word of god in good faith, and now your questioning your decision to do something you at one time thought was GOOD to do then how is it god has allowed you to be decieved? I dont think its as simple a matter as letting what someone on ATS says change your mind. If you truly felt that venerating a symbol was not the same as worshiping it then why do you feel its wrong now. Many will coe in this world to make you question your faith and make you think that what you do is wrong. It can be very confusing especially with religion because there is always 2 sides to every argument. At least 2 sides. So which is real and which is false? In christianity especially your taught to listen to your heart and follow what good men say and look at their works for the truth. According to Matthew 7:17 a tree is known by its fruit. So many times you are called to listen with your heart to judge what is good and what is not. MAny men appear tobe rightous on the outside but are workers of evil on the inside. Politicans mostly lol. Anyways i am saying dont start to question what in your heart you have done in faith and in love for your faith and god. There are just as many arguments for the use of a cross as their are against. You have to go with your heart on this one and dont be a yoyo for peoples religious banterings. Otherwise every long winded religious nut case will have you second guessing everything you have ever thought was good and make you think your the devil himself. Live your life by your heart and listen to what god tells you.

This coming from someone who quit listening. Sound advice my friend even if it comes from an unsound source.

(edited for spelling errors)

[edit on 16-6-2010 by fizzy1]




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