J-10,from China,I am proud of it

Originally posted by Leopardo
everybody keep forgetting that CHINESE people DONT have freedom, they live in a communist #ed up regime, and its really not something i would like to have....
u have no right to criticize americans/europeans when your own goverment opresses u

What kind of freedom do you have? Freedom of killing innocent Iraqi? There is nothing that freedom is related with communism or what so ever, if you know what communism really is. If most of people in China agree with their government, then their government has every right to represent their people. If you really read the European newspaper, you will find out most of the people in the world believe that the U.S. is the biggest threat to peace and mankind. We are not criticize the americans nor europeans who loves peace, but those ugly american politicians who are still dreaming of building an evill empire. If you've never been in China, and never do a survey on how chinese people feel about their government, you don't have the right to criticize that Chinese people don't have freedom. You have been mind washed by those slanted media, period. I posted some links in previous post on the same page, check out how beatiful the cities in China are. In China, only speechs that will threat the national security or national interest will be prohibited, but people have the right to say whatever they want if they do not say anything harmful to others. In Chinese philosophy, we believe that every should be arrange in harmony. We suggest socialism whereas the americans believe in individualism. The differences also reflected in tow different foreign policies between the U.S. and China. The U.S. will always persue it's own interest whereas China will suggest every country work together and compromise to get the best result that will be beneficial to all sides.

[edit on 22-6-2004 by simon1749]

[edit on 22-6-2004 by simon1749]

[edit on 23-6-2004 by simon1749]

actually ppl have more freedom in the US have lots of freedoms i thnk more freedom than any other country.

I don't understand why there are still so many people carrying hostile attitude that should be forgortten after the cold war had ended between the east and west?

Why cant U.S and China build a collaborative relationship rather than thinking throw nukes to each other. Undoubtfully, U.S is leading the world in many fields, but why u guys always forcing other to accept your sense of value and thinking you are going to sustain your leadership forever? That's too dangerous.

China and U.S are developing through different administrative manner, what is the problem of this? Because of the cold war, those propagandas from both side had ruined our minds. We lack of understanding to each other. But I think, Chinese has stepped forward, no longer thinking captalism is the evil essential at all and trying out their own interpretation of communism. (I am saying this not because I am Chinese) Why don't u cowboys give us some time and prove that this will work?

About the human rights, guys, before you make any statement, can you please, as my folks said, see from your own eyes and wear our shoes, put yourself in our postion what sort of decision would you made if you are the Chinese leader at that time. Many events was not as bad as you think of.

My suggestion is come to China and experience this communism country yourself. Many Chinese had stepped on to the beautiful and advanced country -- U.S.A. They admired the amazing achievement americans made to their home land and decided to learn from you and go back to create the same miracle in their home country. This is why thousands of Chinese students flood over U.S every year. Same thing is happening in every leading western countries, I took my degree in U.k. and still doing my master course here. I can tell you tens of thousands of Chinese students are here, too.

What is wrong of using others technology? U.S is the biggest outsourcing country in the world, even technology-wise, every year you bought huge number of new technologies all over the world and apply them to some of your products. It's information age, how many thing can you do with limited number of resources and support? Don't tell me each single technology is developed in U.S, I am telling you that, some thing on your prouded F/A 22 is actually British technology. The point I am making here is don't always keep your fat azz(why is thesystem filtering my word??) in your comfotable couch dreaming your glories. Get out more and see the world, China paid a very high price in last 200 years. We were once in the same throne u guys are sitting now. That time we thought we are the king of the world and closed our eyes, you know what, the time we woke up, yankees are already leading us 30-50 years. Don't tell me you guys want same thing happen to you!

[edit on 22/6/04 by Fan]

[edit on 22/6/04 by Fan]

Originally posted by simon1749

Originally posted by Leopardo
everybody keep forgetting that CHINESE people DONT have freedom, they live in a communist #ed up regime, and its really not something i would like to have....
u have no right to criticize americans/europeans when your own goverment opresses u

What kind of freedom do you have? Freedom of killing innocent Iraqi? There is nothing that freedom is related with communism or what so ever, if you know what communism really is. If most of people in China agree with their government, then their government has every right to represent their people. If you really read the European newspaper, you will find out most of the people in the world believe that the U.S. is the biggest threat to peace and mankind. We are not criticize the americans nor europeans who loves peace, but those ugly american politicians who are still dreaming of building an evill empire. If you've never been in China, and never do a survey on how chinese people feel about their government, you don't have the right to criticize that Chinese people don't have freedom. You have been mind washed by those slanted media, period. I posted some links in previous post on the same page, check out how beatiful the cities in China are. In China, only speechs that will threat the national security or national interest will be prohibited, but people have the right to say whatever they want if they do not say anything harmful to others. In Chinese philosophy, we believe that every should be arrange in harmony. We suggest socialism whereas the americans believe in individualism. The differences also reflected in tow different foreign policies between the U.S. and China. The U.S. will always persue it's own interest whereas China will suggest every country work together and compromise to get the best result that will be beneficial to all sides.

[edit on 22-6-2004 by simon1749]

[edit on 22-6-2004 by simon1749]

If we are going to discuss FREEDOM, it would take forever. If freedom means you are able anything you want to do, then neither side has more than others (even thoug I think the US has way more). Here is a quote that i read once in a book, i can't remember whose it is:

"If society fits you well enough, you call it freedom"


I think that is very true. Chinese government thinks (not necessarily the people) that freedom comes from stability, and that means "one party, one nation governed by the people."
In the US, our concept of freedom is slightly different from Chinese, we are able to so many things without the government nosing in but we pay a lot of tax ( you guys have to agree with me on this one).
1. The US gives you freedom to travel to other countries, unlike China.
2. The US gives you freedom to worship. China does not. In fact it directs Christian persecution in South East Asia.
www.worldnetdaily.com...
3. The US gives you freedom of speech (at least it has more). Why did China keep the news of the space launch until after its success? Why don't Chinese newspaper run articles critize its government ( It's like Saddam Hussein said he got 99 percent of the vote in the reelection before Gulf War II).
4. ..... YUp the Us has more freedom.

We Americans appreciate your opposite views in this thread. Ours are opposite from yours. It keeps all of our minds open and be less ignorant... Well i got off track. sorry guys. Remember : if society fits you well enough, you call it freedom. Thank you for reading this. If you guys have any more to add, feel free to do so

Nobody denies American have pretty good "freedom". And personally as a Chinese I do admit that American people got more freedom than Chinese people do, or let's say, you government does a better job in taking care of American people than ours do Chinese people. We are learning and changing to catch up (I dont think comments like "Chinese people dont have freedom" makes too much sense). Besides, there are several points in details I want to clarify:

1. The US gives you freedom to travel to other countries, unlike China.

Not true, getting passport is quite easy in China -- it's getting visa the hard part, thus you cant say we don't have freedom to travel.

2. The US gives you freedom to worship. China does not. In fact it directs Christian persecution in South East Asia.
www.worldnetdaily.com...

Not true, there are many churches, christian and catholic, in China. Although not encouraging, Chinese goverment doesnt forbid people worship. -- However worships need to be in the churches or priate places, not on street.

3. The US gives you freedom of speech (at least it has more). Why did China keep the news of the space launch until after its success? Why don't Chinese newspaper run articles critize its government ( It's like Saddam Hussein said he got 99 percent of the vote in the reelection before Gulf War II).

Not quite true, I am wondering... how do you come up with that, if you read Chinese newspaper... I admit that critizing is far from enough, there are more and more of them, but mainly in CHINESE media -- it's pointless to write those in English isnt it?

Finally, let me say one thing about American's freedom. Although Americans are living happily and free, your freedom is based on denying freedom of other nations. In another word, you government may take fairly good care of you but treat other people bad, no matter you wanna know about it or not. Therefor I dont think this is the best freedom for the world.

"If society fits you well enough, you call it freedom", so ture.

Originally posted by Wild_Sunflower

Finally, let me say one thing about American's freedom. Although Americans are living happily and free, your freedom is based on denying freedom of other nations. In another word, you government may take fairly good care of you but treat other people bad, no matter you wanna know about it or not. Therefor I dont think this is the best freedom for the world.

"If society fits you well enough, you call it freedom", so ture.

In my opinion, that is true. We do not go to other countries to just simply liberate them from oppression, we need things in return. If we have had won in Vietnam, I think the US would have had benifited from its extremely rich natural resources (rubber, coal, ect.). Instead we lost. The point is nothing is free. No one is just going to waste a few billion dollars for nothing in return. I think until every country in the world became Americanized, living our way, we will continue look at them as a level below us.
But recent news about US soldiers and the beheading of two American cililians and one South Korean make me sick. US soldiers are getting "revenge" on the Muslims for blowing up the WTC eventhough not every one of them is a terrorist. The extremists now have a reason to get back at the US and its allies in Iraq by beheading people.
Those people are animals (including the Americans soldiers). I am surprised by the barbarity level that those soldiers were willing to stoop down. The extremists are again, animals!.

It would be great if the US, China and Russia could all work on more collarborative, less destructive things. It really isn't our right as a country to try and change a government of another, especially if the other country is content with the status quo i.e. China. If anything we should try to help them develope into their fulliest potential, while influencing our own. The Chinese have a rich culture that has many good qualities that Americans could use in their lives to enrich, such as their sense of order and harmony illustrated in Confucianism. That isn't to say that the US doesn't have many things it can't offer to the Chinese. We have a stong sense of innovation and can help the Chinese to pioneer that kind of spirit.

We really should be lending a helping hand, not aiming a Nuke at their face and visa-versa. Humanity won't survive if we as a species cannot overcome our minute differences and learn to live together in Peace; this planet is too small for only one way of thinking, we as Americans should remember that it doesn't just apply to the way we view our citizens but the entire Worlds population. I was very disappointed in the U.S(politicians) when we refused to let the Chinese help with the ISS, that kind of thinking will get us nowhere!

[edit on 23-6-2004 by Sigma]

"If society fits you well, you call it freedom". Well said. Besides, the so-called "freedom" is really a personal feeling thing, which shouldn't be judeged by other people.

The last few posts have been way off the original topic, but it is getting interesting. Thank God not all Americans think using their toes. As a matter of fact, I believe most of Americans are very nice hard-working understanding people. It was these people who keep US vivid, not those people with "... freedom ... liberate ... blarblar " every day.

I am glad to see that lots of people in this forum are really understanding and rational. We likes to watch and discuss military affairs and weapons not because we are warlike, but because in the real world, weaponary represents the most advance technology in all time.

Originally posted by jazzmaster

In my opinion, that is true. We do not go to other countries to just simply liberate them from oppression, we need things in return. If we have had won in Vietnam, I think the US would have had benifited from its extremely rich natural resources (rubber, coal, ect.). Instead we lost. The point is nothing is free. No one is just going to waste a few billion dollars for nothing in return. I think until every country in the world became Americanized, living our way, we will continue look at them as a level below us.
But recent news about US soldiers and the beheading of two American cililians and one South Korean make me sick. US soldiers are getting "revenge" on the Muslims for blowing up the WTC eventhough not every one of them is a terrorist. The extremists now have a reason to get back at the US and its allies in Iraq by beheading people.
Those people are animals

(including the Americans soldiers). I am surprised by the barbarity level that those soldiers were willing to stoop down. The extremists are again, animals!.

hmmm, severals comments:

1. My point of view is, the main purpose of your going to war is that you want something, not that you want to give something. I mean, it's the "things in return" leads you to war, and "liberate them from oppression" is more like an excuse and byproduct.

2. War is not quite busniess. People die. It's not only "waste a few billion dollars", but also lifes.

3. If this is a deal, America gave billions of dollars + 1000 soldiers life, will get cheaper oil (and somebody get re-elected maybe), I leave it to you to decide if it is a good deal, it's your business anyway. But is there a good deal for those countries and their people? And no matter the deal is good or not, when America wants a war against them, could they just say, no deal, thanks?

4. You probably will think, well they are bad countries, so why not we kick their ass and take advantage of them? Well let's see how you classify countries. "I think until every country in the world became Americanized, living our way, we will continue look at them as a level below us." man that sounds fimiliar and scary, I hope you didn't mean what it sounds like. Firstly, although I do envy your government system and law system, I prefer living in a Chinese way and not being Americanied in many other aspects of life, and I don't think that makes me in a level under yours. Secondly, what will you do when a country you think is in a level under yours? Well you have gone to wars with some of them which, I guess, are waaay under yours. But when there is potential interest for America, is there a line that defines those you may fight with from those you may not among all "below you"s?

5. Yeah, both of those who decapitated civilians and who abuse POW are animals, I agree with you. Someone put it well: no matter what are their causes, they have failed them. I guess violence is be able to take care someone's problem, but definetly not for all of us -- for it leads to other violence for sure.

and now back to the J-10...

The acquisition of Su-27, after China had attempted for years to develop the J-10 aircraft with equivalent technology to perform similar functions, demonstrates a lack of confidence in domestic industrial capabilities. China�s record on reverse engineering aircraft has not been impressive, and it remains in doubt whether the J-10 will ever join China�s interceptor inventory.

It is unclear what specific technologies and systems Israel has provided, although it is reported that the Jian-10's radar and fire-control system is the Israeli-made ELM-2021 system, which can simultaneously track six air targets and lock onto the four most-threatening targets for destruction. Some experts believe that the Israeli contribution will focus on avionics and radar, with Russia supplying the engines.

In December 1991, US intelligence officials announced that Israel was planning to open a government coordinated and sponsored "arms office" in the PRC. In light of what the Israelis have to offer, and what the Chinese need, it was most likely that a transfer of avionics and other technologies developed in the Lavi program would ensue, since there is a void in the Chinese avionics and fire control system capability due to the 1989 termination of a US/Chinese program in response to Tienanmen square.

...In November 1995 the Jian-10 fighter prototype crashed during a test flight, and consequently it was decided to indefinitely suspend manufacturing plans which had anticipated deliveries to users by 1998. By mid-1999 flight testing had resumed, with little prospect of entering service by 2005

www.fas.org...

Originally posted by Wild_Sunflower

Originally posted by jazzmaster

In my opinion, that is true. We do not go to other countries to just simply liberate them from oppression, we need things in return. If we have had won in Vietnam, I think the US would have had benifited from its extremely rich natural resources (rubber, coal, ect.). Instead we lost. The point is nothing is free. No one is just going to waste a few billion dollars for nothing in return. I think until every country in the world became Americanized, living our way, we will continue look at them as a level below us.
But recent news about US soldiers and the beheading of two American cililians and one South Korean make me sick. US soldiers are getting "revenge" on the Muslims for blowing up the WTC eventhough not every one of them is a terrorist. The extremists now have a reason to get back at the US and its allies in Iraq by beheading people.
Those people are animals

(including the Americans soldiers). I am surprised by the barbarity level that those soldiers were willing to stoop down. The extremists are again, animals!.

hmmm, severals comments:

1. My point of view is, the main purpose of your going to war is that you want something, not that you want to give something. I mean, it's the "things in return" leads you to war, and "liberate them from oppression" is more like an excuse and byproduct.

2. War is not quite busniess. People die. It's not only "waste a few billion dollars", but also lifes.

3. If this is a deal, America gave billions of dollars + 1000 soldiers life, will get cheaper oil (and somebody get re-elected maybe), I leave it to you to decide if it is a good deal, it's your business anyway. But is there a good deal for those countries and their people? And no matter the deal is good or not, when America wants a war against them, could they just say, no deal, thanks?

4. You probably will think, well they are bad countries, so why not we kick their ass and take advantage of them? Well let's see how you classify countries. "I think until every country in the world became Americanized, living our way, we will continue look at them as a level below us." man that sounds fimiliar and scary, I hope you didn't mean what it sounds like. Firstly, although I do envy your government system and law system, I prefer living in a Chinese way and not being Americanied in many other aspects of life, and I don't think that makes me in a level under yours. Secondly, what will you do when a country you think is in a level under yours? Well you have gone to wars with some of them which, I guess, are waaay under yours. But when there is potential interest for America, is there a line that defines those you may fight with from those you may not among all "below you"s?

5. Yeah, both of those who decapitated civilians and who abuse POW are animals, I agree with you. Someone put it well: no matter what are their causes, they have failed them. I guess violence is be able to take care someone's problem, but definetly not for all of us -- for it leads to other violence for sure.

What i meant by the comment nothing is free is that the purpose of the US government willing to interfere or intervene in some countries is not purely freedom and democracy, there are things behind it, benifits in return. The US wants Iraq's oil along with freeing the people of Saddam Hussein's tyranny, they planned the war before 9/11. They did not consider many factors that would slow down the process/progress of this, they did not see that they would be still be fighting after war was declared over. Instead they are fighting and losing bad. We are fighting the wrong type of battle right now, urban warfare, just like the VN war, guerilla warfare. In another word, unconventional warfare. The US is not fully prepared for those kinds of battle. If we did not have these obstacles in Iraq, the war we fought is "just." Plus we would have benifited alot from this war, instead of deficit spendings and daily casualties ( both soldiers and civilians)

If you guys ever read "The Pentagon Papers" published back in the 70's, you would see that the US going to Vietnam was not just to stop the spread of communism, they had other things on the table, like its stragic military location (naval bases, waterway (really important)), natural resources, and of course, a US presence in the region. Instead the US was not prepared to fight guerilla warfare, we sank deep in a hole that we could not get out. We spent a lot of money and lives trying to recover but was not successful.

That is why it does not seem like Iraq is a good place in the world right now, too many complex matters that could have been avoided.


What I meant by looking a level below us is that we are so rich and powerful that we think we are the best. We are ignorant of other countries, that means culture, the people, ect. But the fact is we should be learning about other people's cultures more than we are right now if we say US is the place for everyone. The US is composed of many different types of people, Africans, Asians, Europeans. The term "melting pot" is really true. But that is not enough. We clearly do not understand they way of life in China. We clearly do not understand the way of life in the Middle East, We clearly do not understand the way of life that is different from us.

[We make J-10 just want to keep predominance to Taiwan,not for other purpose.

I doubt that the people of taiwan would like to live in your Communist paradise. However, the J-10 will reamin a paper tiger untill it develops an actuall combat record. As far the J-10 posing a treat to Taiwan based F-16's or a US Carrier battle group I doubt that. Both are armed to the teeth and well trained. Between the Patriots on Taiwan or the Ageis crusers of the CBG, the J-10 will be nothing but high tech chaff.

As far as you asserting that China build the J-10 for dominace over just Taiwan, you have been listining to your own propaganda way to much. China has territorial ambitions like everyone else. Just ask the Phillipines about the Spratly Isands.

[We really should be lending a helping hand, not aiming a Nuke at their face and visa-versa. Humanity won't survive if we as a species cannot overcome our minute differences and learn to live together in Peace; this planet is too small for only one way of thinking, we as Americans should remember that it doesn't just apply to the way we view our citizens but the entire Worlds population. I was very disappointed in the U.S(politicians) when we refused to let the Chinese help with the ISS, that kind of thinking will get us nowhere!

You make a point however, the current government of China with its abysmal human rights record etc etc. should not be helped. Thier government is directly opposed to our type of democracy. Im not sugesting that we wage war, however it is navie to think that thier government will not use our "Help" aginst us. China was not allowed to participate in the ISS because of technology concerns. Why give them access to material that will allow them to point better weapons at us?

I bet the US is hoping some sort of invasion of Tiawan. The US and China are on a collision course- fight them now rather than later.

Progress through conflict

[edit on 3-7-2004 by Vanguard]

Originally posted by WestPoint23
actually ppl have more freedom in the US have lots of freedoms i thnk more freedom than any other country.

Any other country. But have a look at the city of Amsterdam. Prostitution in the red light district, drugs are legal. Just about anything is legal in Amsterdam.

Originally posted by Jaypeth
And Humans are all copying alien techs so who cares who gets it first.... it is a gift of destruction for a race hairless apes

what aliean techs?

Yeah I think Amsterdam has to be one of the most free societies in the world. I would love to visit there but I dont think I would want to live there

New Zealand sounds pretty good as well. I know Australia give them hell at every turn, but from everything I've heard on the news, they're the most free nation along with most the Scandinavian countries.

Back onto the J-10 its not to bad for China's needs but when compared to US fighters its a turkey. But a more fair competition would be the J-10 vs. the Sweedish Gripen. But judgeing by the J-7 vs. Mig-21 Chinese copies aren't as good as the real thing. But if they faced a Gripen the Gripen is probably the better fighter.