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J-10,from China,I am proud of it

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posted on Aug, 2 2004 @ 06:55 PM
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Originally posted by feindflug

Originally posted by AD5673

The U.S. has got missle defense and will probably shoot down any Chinese nuclear missle..


ahahahhahahahahahah *cough* wait ahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahahahahhaahhahahahaha

US MISSILE DEFENCE IS IN THE GRAVE ALONG WITH REAGAN, i dont call couple of unproven uncomplite interceptrors in couple of years that supposed to shoot down scud copies a missile defence ok?
Airborne Defense Laser. You lose.




posted on Aug, 2 2004 @ 08:11 PM
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By the end of this post you may think that my name is a misnomer...but i assure you its not... BTW I am joining this post late (just discovered this site and I got a lot to say) A lot of smart ppl have expressed opinions here which I agree with.

Well Peeps I personally think that we are all gonna be fubar come 10-15 years from now. And it wont come down to who has the best fighter, cause it wont matter. China has been eyeing taiwan like a kid eyeing candy through a glass window. No matter what china claims, they want taiwan back and will pay any price to unify. They KNOW that if they do, we (US and possibly the world) will respond with force which is why ALL of their future military equipment, not just aircraft but everything, is geared to take down its US competitor. The su-35/37 v. raptor (sure Russia doesnt have funds to produce it but guess who will in years to come), missiles that use cameras instead of heat or radar to lock on to stealth aircraft, special type of stealth subs etc, the sunburn missile that can travel at extremely fast (mach4?) speeds hugging the ocean water to avoid radar pickup which could slip past AEGIS and devastate a carrier battle group etc... TRUST ME when i say that i burst at the seams with American Pride, I am a die hard patriot. But i believe our greatness in its vastness and glory will be our down fall. People like West Point who Underestimate the enemy (present and future) live on past glory, will ultimately hurt this country. Westpoint if you are truly going to be in the army, God bless, but NEVER EVER underestimate your opponent, even if he is riding naked on a camel. I hope they teach you at west point that confidence wins war and arrogance looses them. I know west point you shudder the thought of Americans not being number one, so do I, BUT we must not be arrogant and foolhardy into thinking we are the best, that no one can take us down, ever. Sure we have the edge now, but how long will that last? Remember all good things must come to an end and what goes up must come down. If we can have the foresight to meet our challenges, not deny them, maybe we can prolong our greatness. But if we claim that we have no challenges, we stand a snowballs chance in hell. Bush isnt helping us stay on the top either. Hes not the only problem, or foreign policy, and thoughts on globalization mixed with grass roots problem will really shake us down if left unchecked in years to come. Gastric I believe that your Chinese empire will rise like no other empire ever has (in time), thats to our stupidity, and Bill Clinton selling top military secrets to you guys as well. But china too will see its demise sometime (if humanity even gets that far, aka if we dont nuke each other to oblivion) Remember west point its because we are so conceited and arrogant that the world hates us. Not because they are jealous of what we have. We also stick our noses where it doesnt belong. When China attacks, and they will, we will respond. I can only pray that no one is stupid enough to launch a nuke, because that would be the end of the world. Gastric claims that china will be left with "no choice" because we are superior, Maybe thats what your government tells you but I dont buy it. (there is always a option rather than a first nuclear strike) When china attacks they will have a large enough force modern enough force to do so(10-15 years) so using nukes on their part would only be a means as a ultimate offensive weapon. Chinas reach for Taiwan will be the trigger to WWIII and the end of the world as we know it. So I hope they are never stupid enough to try a stunt like that.. This will truly be a battle of the titans where the world will be collateral damage.

Food for thought:

I dont know what WW3 will be fought with, But I do know that WW4 will be fought with sticks and stones

Before I go, more food for thought, some have been raving about tech that the US has that we dont even know about. I agree, sure we def have the competitive tech edge, who knows wtf the government has probably some sick stuff. BUT need I remind you all that Our military forces were very small and antiquated when WWII broke out, Germany totally beat us hands down in tech, BY FAR.. there is no denying this.. Yet with our sheer will power and ablity to mass produce stuff we overcame the odds. Tech DID NOT win that war, MAN did. Because we have shipped all our manufacturing jobs to ahem ahem CHINA we will be caught with our privates in our hands if we ever need to mass produce stuff (which is what every war in history boils down to, masses) Our tech is useless if we lack the means to mass produce it, and in a war with china that has 1 billion + people.. I think production will be an issue. I hope and pray that we live in peace, but I know thats wishful thinking

Later



posted on Aug, 3 2004 @ 01:21 AM
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Nice though out post I agree with 90% percent of it, but anyways you have my vote for way above nice going hope to see you post more here on ATS later.







West Point, Out



posted on Aug, 3 2004 @ 04:07 AM
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I agree. Excellent post.



posted on Aug, 3 2004 @ 09:31 AM
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I just got too annoyed reading this thread after page 10 and decided to reply. I would like to make a few points. To those who say that the j-10 should stay in the 80s, the 1980s was such a great time for military aviation, with groundbreaking Soviet and Western designs coming out. Even with the consisten upgrades many planes have received, planes in the 80s can still tangle pretty darn well with modern fighters, be it BVR or a dogfight. Fighter pilots rely on their fighters radar, AWACS or visual sight. There is many ways of tricking radar and awacs, then all this advanced technology in planes doesnt mean anything. It's two pilots, their cannon and the phyisical properties and capabilities of their machines. And it always is the best pilot who wins, not the best plane in a dogfight!
Secondly, particularly directed towards the americans who boast about the advanced computers in the f22. By aviation standards, they are more advanced than what the rest of the world has. But the fastest processors in the F-22 run at an amazing 80mhz! whoah a mil-spec x-86 Intel Pentium! just wait till some other country puts a pentium 2 in there plane, it will be heaps better! more processor power to do those millions of calculations for multiple targeting and more accurate flightstick correction! I personally am impressed by the 22's supposed thrust-vectoring capabilities
. IMO i think it's silly to waste so much money on weapons and not put it into teaching your kids!



Another thing to the Americans. The typical American response is that in war time people have to just shut up and go along with the war to support the troops. Have you ever thought that your government may be lying to you or twisting the truth?? that you are supporting the troops for all the wrong reasons and the right thing to do is get up and protest and get your brothers and sisters back in college where they belong?

What I would like the American members on this board who wholeheartedly support their government and their troops reasons is not to believe what you are being told. The American people post 9/11 are about the most mindless and indoctrinated people in the western world. Do you really think terrorism is a danger to you? it isnt a danger at all! you are more likely to die in a car crash than to be affected by terrorist attacks!

there are contending forces in the world and we just sometimes have to accept them. 9/11 was inevitable because of the recklessness of US intervention in many conflicts. That is how America paid for its sins, and does it repent? no it just picks up the sword and keeps sinning!

I've kinda got off topic here, but I believe that the US could do so much good for the world i just get angry when i see it doing awful things around the world.

I would like the US ppl on this forum who scoff at the chinese capability to give the chinese credit for so much progress. They are really trying to improve their capabilities and i think they are doing a pretty good job. If they keep up the pace they are going at, they will be making some pretty sweet stuff in the decades to come. To whoever compared the j-10 to the f-4, it is considered by many aviation enthusiasts on the board i'm on that the mig-21 was a superior aircraft to it.

thanks,
drfunk

now lets continue debating!



posted on Aug, 3 2004 @ 12:35 PM
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OK First, 80 mhz.. what kind of crack are you smoking and why arent you sharing.... where every you got that info from is dead wrong how can you even believe that knowing all the advanced avionics that are in the F22, you think a 80 mhz computer can handle that? are you crazy? any way..

"The F-22 has the computing power of 2 cray super computers."

www.globalsecurity.org...

(which BTW dont operate at 80 mhZ...


you are right its not the plane it is the pilot which wins the war, ( to a certain degree but i think we can all agree that no one is gonna take a f-22 down in a biplane
)

Secondly, damn right we support our troops. We may not support what our government does with them but our troops are the ones who have spilt their blood for our country (and chances are yours too, where ever you are) and there is no reason to berate or not support our troops for stupid decisions our government makes. So support the troops all the way, but question the governments use of troops to a reasonable extent. I understand that our government doesnt tell the truth.. DOES YOURS? I think not.... all politicians lie. Its just a fact of life.. sure we stick our noses where it doesnt belong, but i cant believe you have the nerve to say taht justifies what happened on 9/11. (and again, dam right we came outa there swinging.. what would your country have done if that happend to you guys? take it sitting down??) there are plenty of ways that people can tell us to FO without plowing planes into buildings. I know we need to be told to FO, but that was just the wrong way of doing it. You think terrorism is not a threat? It is a threat and a very real one. The only reason why you have more chances of ppl getting killed in a car accident is because there are so many cars, even if a nuke goes off in a major city that useless fact would still hold true because so many number of ppl have been killed by cars.. so your statistic holds no water.



posted on Aug, 3 2004 @ 03:40 PM
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Another thing to the Americans. The typical American response is that in war time people have to just shut up and go along with the war to support the troops. Have you ever thought that your government may be lying to you or twisting the truth?? that you are supporting the troops for all the wrong reasons and the right thing to do is get up and protest and get your brothers and sisters back in college where they belong?


That is the best thing to do. You may disagree with the government but to not support your troops is the lowest level you can reach. How do you think our service men and women feel, when their own people are out in the streets protesting like idiots and not supporting what they are doing.


there are contending forces in the world and we just sometimes have to accept them. 9/11 was inevitable because of the recklessness of US intervention in many conflicts. That is how America paid for its sins, and does it repent? no it just picks up the sword and keeps sinning!


What I cannot believe you said this, you call killing 3.000 innocent civilians reasonable and fair? You actually agree with what UBL is doing. I guess you think were infidels to sent by the devil right?


I've kinda got off topic here, but I believe that the US could do so much good for the world i just get angry when i see it doing awful things around the world.


Lets see the US has liberated more people in its 230 year history than any other country in the world. The US liberated 30+ Afghani form the Taliban. The US liberated 23+ Iraqis from Saddam. The US saved and now is protecting 40+ million S. Koreas from the north. The US liberated part of china form the Japanese invasion during WWII. The US is also protecting 20+ million Taiwanese from being forced to join china. The Us took part in liberating France from Nazi Germany in WWII. The US has donated more money than any other country in the world to AIDs treatment for Africa. The US gives food to counties that suffer disasters even if they are our enemies, we gave Iran food and supplies after they had an earthquake. We gave North Korea food and supplies after the train blast they had. I guess the US doesn't do any good in the world after all



If they keep up the pace they are going at, they will be making some pretty sweet stuff in the decades to come.


I have no doubt that china will be making and building great jets in the decades to come, but the US will also be producing even greater things in the decades to come.



posted on Aug, 3 2004 @ 03:58 PM
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I thought Britain liberated most people in the world. After all we helped America in quite a few of their ventures plus we withdrew from the Empire, ahem, the Empire we conquered in the first place which spoils the argument a bit



posted on Aug, 3 2004 @ 04:15 PM
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Originally posted by WestPoint23
You may disagree with the government but to not support your troops is the lowest level you can reach.


- if you look that is not what was said.

One can honourably protest the gov's actions and still support the troops.


How do you think our service men and women feel, when their own people are out in the streets protesting like idiots and not supporting what they are doing.


- I think most of them aren't so dumb as to see it like that in the first place Westy. That is not what protesting the gov's actions is about. Come on man even an infant can see that difference.


What I cannot believe you said this, you call killing 3.000 innocent civilians reasonable and fair?


- How did you reach that conclusion? That's not what was said.


You actually agree with what UBL is doing.


- I didn't see this either.


The US liberated 30+ Afghani form the Taliban.


- An indefinite occupation is not the conventional definition of liberation you know.


The US liberated 23+ Iraqis from Saddam.


- Ditto, whether there is an installed regime or not.


The US saved and now is protecting 40+ million S. Koreas from the north.


- er, UN forces did that actually. The US was a part of that but not the entire effort.


The US liberated part of china form the Japanese invasion during WWII. The US is also protecting 20+ million Taiwanese from being forced to join china.


- er, no. Taiwan is a part of China. The entire mess of the partition is no solution at all.


The Us took part in liberating France from Nazi Germany in WWII.


- True but the US forces were outnumbered by the Brits and Canadians during the invasion.


The US has donated more money than any other country in the world to AIDs treatment for Africa.


- Well that will help make up for US drug companies gouging the Africans for so long in the recent past then won't it?


The US gives food to counties that suffer disasters even if they are our enemies, we gave Iran food and supplies after they had an earthquake.


- Sorry......is there a state of war between the USA and Iran right now? I know the Iranians have every right to be angry at US interference and subversion in their country over the last 30 yrs or so but I didn't think things had reached that stage!


We gave North Korea food and supplies after the train blast they had. I guess the US doesn't do any good in the world after all


- Your people gave the people of NK the food. Hopefully. Are you saying this was wrong or to be regretted?



posted on Aug, 3 2004 @ 11:06 PM
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Lets see the US has liberated more people in its 230 year history than any other country in the world. The US liberated 30+ Afghani form the Taliban. The US liberated 23+ Iraqis from Saddam. The US saved and now is protecting 40+ million S. Koreas from the north. The US liberated part of china form the Japanese invasion during WWII. The US is also protecting 20+ million Taiwanese from being forced to join china. The Us took part in liberating France from Nazi Germany in WWII. The US has donated more money than any other country in the world to AIDs treatment for Africa. The US gives food to counties that suffer disasters even if they are our enemies, we gave Iran food and supplies after they had an earthquake. We gave North Korea food and supplies after the train blast they had. I guess the US doesn't do any good in the world after all


Liberation:







Retribution:







posted on Aug, 3 2004 @ 11:41 PM
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Showing pictures of a war is like showing pictures of an aborted fetus as an argument against abortion. It means nothing.

15,000 Frenchmen died on just the first day of the the invasion in bombing raids. That's nearly equal to the number that died in both Iraq and Afghanistan in both wars combined.

The number that died under Saddam far surpasses the number we killed, and we're also bringing them freedoms. Regardless of your stance on the war, I really don't see how you could deny this. Even if you thought the government was a puppet the Iraqis have seen a large increase in freedom. They've even used that to mock the new government several times already.



There is many ways of tricking radar and awacs, then all this advanced technology in planes doesnt mean anything. It's two pilots, their cannon and the phyisical properties and capabilities of their machines. And it always is the best pilot who wins, not the best plane in a dogfight!


Dogfighting doesn't happen anymore. American fighters are made to pick off targets from a distance, especially the F-22. What makes the F-22 so impressive is that it will always get the first shot off, and its most likely going to be a kill.

I'll just say that I doubt ANY fourth generation plane can compete with the F-22, let alone a force of F-22's backed up with impressive fourth generation planes like the F-15. China really is not in a position to overwhelm us with numbers.



Germany totally beat us hands down in tech, BY FAR.. there is no denying this.. Yet with our sheer will power and ablity to mass produce stuff we overcame the odds.


This is true to an extent. Germany did not dominate in every area of technology, though. They were also fighting on multiple fronts. They overstrained themselves, but America could not have beaten Germany without the Russians or any other ally.

Mass production will not decide a war with China. Any war with them would ultimately be fought in China, and that means they'd experience massive bombing raids on their industries.

Even if China could pump out a number of planes, finding competent pilots to use them would be hard. They already have far inferior pilots to our own. A J-10 with an awful pilot isn't going to matter.

The Korean war showed this to be true. The Mig was a superior plane to our Sabre, and they even had over ten times the ammount, many of them being flown by Russian elites from WW2. We still ended up with a one-sided kill ratio of 10:1 on these things.

Now, let's ignore all of what I said so far. Do you really think China could produce more planes then we can? The J-10 is really no better then our fourth generation planes, and we can still modify those. We can produce just as many of these as China can J-10. We already have huge numbers of these while China is only going to have something like 600 fourth generation fighters by 2010, and of these only 300 would be J-10's. By the time China has a large number of J-10's we'll be pushing out large numbers of F-35's.

There is little threat from China in the air, whether it be numbers of technology.



posted on Aug, 4 2004 @ 01:45 AM
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Pictures of war or the death of civilians during war will always happen but what happens in the long run and for the better good is more important. You can never eliminate civilian casualties, but like I said the greater good is more important. In WWII do you know how many German civilians died in the liberation of Berlin and how many buildings were destroyed
the number is astronomical! But it doesn't mean it was the wrong thing to do, look at the better good Germany was better off afterward.



The number of civilians killed in World War II is approximately 40 million, including 17 million Russians, 10 million Chinese, 4 million Germans and 300,000 Japanese.


Even thought the number of civilians is horrible the war was for the better good of the world and the countries involved.



posted on Aug, 4 2004 @ 05:09 AM
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hi all,

spose it's time for a reply. Yes it is true that the fastest processor in the f-22 is rated around 80mhz! though ofc it uses many of these for different operations, and even by late 90s standards a cray supercomputer isnt terribly fast. I was just trying to highlight that though in military circles the computers in the F-22 are very advanced, but compared to what we see in civvie sectors it isnt that great
.

"What I cannot believe you said this, you call killing 3.000 innocent civilians reasonable and fair? You actually agree with what UBL is doing. I guess you think were infidels to sent by the devil right?"

firstly I did not say it was right, I said 9/11 is how America payed for its sins. 3000 people dying is a tragedy, but don't you think your government and media blew this out of proportion? more Iraqi civilians died of "collateral damage" in Iraq than in 9/11 More people die from malaria every day than 3000 people on 9/11. tens of thousands of people died in a earthquake in Iran last year, and did you see the media coverage it got? insignificant! while 3000 people die in 9/11 and we get bombarded for months and years on end about it. Not a day goes by where I do not hear about 9/11. The only reason I can think of is because the media thinks American lives are worth more than the lives of other nations!

I do not believe in a God, but I believe in Karma. And many actions by the US government and US corporations of exploiting the blood, sweat, oil and tears of the less fortunate or of immoral actions to others that dont see eye to eye with how the US government believes how the world should be run or how wealth should be distributed is wrong. You are right that America has done great things for others. But you must also acknowledge America has done many shameful things as well.

With great power comes great responsibility.

To the gentleman who said that dogfighting does not happen anymore. It does and there are many many ways of getting past radar systems and I guarantee you that dogfights will be here for the time to come. On an aviation forum i am a member of we generally have come to the conclusion that the dogfight isnt obsolete quite yet
though of course there's the general argument once in a while .
. But dont get me wrong, the f-22 is an awesome aircraft and i am supremely impressed with its on paper stats! I've heard that F-16's have trouble keeping up with it with their afterburner on while its on a cruising rating!
. And the use of datalinks is definitely the way how information will win wars in the future.



posted on Aug, 4 2004 @ 07:17 PM
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Jesus Christ, i can't beleive how people are stupid, brainwashed and ignorant. This site is supposed to deny ignorance, but it seems it actually attracts it!



posted on Aug, 4 2004 @ 09:57 PM
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we all have our beliefs, and we all stick by them even if it does seem ignorant or stupid by others



posted on Aug, 4 2004 @ 10:51 PM
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yeah the f22 is a nice plane but nothing compared to the YF23.
anyway the J-10 i have to say is an OK plane. for one of the chinese's first attempt's at a good fighter its OK.
also even though america may have tech it doesnt mean it can stop a larger airforce on home turf.



posted on Aug, 4 2004 @ 11:04 PM
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The Chinese air forces isn't larger. They have something like 3,000 planes. That's about the same size as America's. Most of those are actually 3rd generation or lower planes. They'll only have 600 fourth generation by 2010, while all of America is fourth generation, with a few hundred fifth generation. By 2020 we'll be pretty much all of fifth generation, while China will be mostly fourth generation. At the same time China is trying to reduce the size of their air force to increase training of their pilots and improve technology.



posted on Aug, 5 2004 @ 09:37 AM
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This is true to an extent. Germany did not dominate in every area of technology, though. They were also fighting on multiple fronts. They overstrained themselves, but America could not have beaten Germany without the Russians or any other ally.

Mass production will not decide a war with China. Any war with them would ultimately be fought in China, and that means they'd experience massive bombing raids on their industries.

Even if China could pump out a number of planes, finding competent pilots to use them would be hard. They already have far inferior pilots to our own. A J-10 with an awful pilot isn't going to matter.



I dont know guys, I dont think you arent giving china its due, as far as manifacturing power.. EVERYTHING is made there, now i know most of that is clothing and little trinkets and what not (well then again a lot of electronics are as well) bottom line is that we have lost our production muscle, and while yes mass production may not be a thing of modern war like it was for WWII, remember a WW is a WW and sh*t gets blown up, you are going to have to not only overwhelm your enemy but replace all your F'd up stuff faster than your enemy. Look how big china is, look how many ppl they have, you REALLY thing that a war with china is NOT about numbers? You claim that we can blow up their production plants, but im sure its not going to be that easy. Remember we still have to get the ordinace over there. If with their focus on better subs and a better navy thats going to be quite hard. Give them a bit of time and due to their exponential growth they will catch up within a decade and a half. Also 2 things to remember 1) Air raids never won a war, it always took grunt activity on the ground to get the job done. 2) our pilots are just as raw as theirs for all im concerned, when is the last time we were in major air combat? I know we do mock training and excercises but anyone can do that. Im sure if they were ever in a position to go after taiwan, they would not only have the offensive capability to do so but the defensive capability to relpell any attacks on the main land. This war isnt going to happen tomorrow, they would sign their own death warrant if that happend (well that death warrant would be signed no matter when they attack but esp if it were sometime soon). It will happen when THEY are ready, and not the other way around. Either way you slice it.. its not gonna be pretty. Also remember our intelligence sucks, they could have sh*t that we dont even know about...since they are a commie society its much easier to hush up stuff there, they have that to their advantage. Poor gastric cant even comment on his military capability without fear of the guestapo knocking down his door
The ONLY thing that could be a great balancing factor in our favor if we got into a war with china would be if we had INDIA as an ally, they are slightly more advanced than china right now, with more people and they are the only ones that could really tip the scale in our favor. And besides they nieghbor China, im sure chinas act of agression would skeeve them out a abit.

Lastly



even by late 90s standards a cray supercomputer isnt terribly fast.


Yea maybe not in terms of CPU cycles, im not even sure what Crays got as far as that goes im talking about raw computing power.. OPS (operations per second) and you better believe the raptor can do Teraflops worth of signal processing .. it has to:

"Raw digital data arrives at rates of trillions of bits per second (terabits/sec) but must be understood and applied to target detection in real time. Todays processors compute at billions of floating-point operations per second (gigaflops), which may not be adequate"

-Avionics magazine


Id love to see your P4 at home do that


Super Lastly, I dont know if it was on this thread or another but they mentioned that the future enemy of ours no matter who it is has one weapon that will be used against us : our own media! ...Unless the chinese attack first.. and they WONT because they know that would unite this nation of ours thats growing unpatriotic by the second. If they attack US as a preemptive strike that would only be pearl harbor/WWII all over again, We are going to go over there and step to them and our media will have a FIELD DAY...good luck finding people to man our planes then. Recruitment is at a all time low, we not only need good pilots pilots, but talented and motivated crew to support them. Not people who are just in it for the college money.

[edit on 5-8-2004 by RealisticPatriot]

[edit on 5-8-2004 by RealisticPatriot]

[edit on 5-8-2004 by RealisticPatriot]



posted on Aug, 5 2004 @ 03:47 PM
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Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
The Chinese air forces isn't larger. They have something like 3,000 planes. That's about the same size as America's. Most of those are actually 3rd generation or lower planes. They'll only have 600 fourth generation by 2010, while all of America is fourth generation, with a few hundred fifth generation. By 2020 we'll be pretty much all of fifth generation, while China will be mostly fourth generation. At the same time China is trying to reduce the size of their air force to increase training of their pilots and improve technology.

what ?
the chinese airforce is massive.
hell the navy one is massive as well.
the navy one alone has over 4500 in strikeing distance of taiwan never mind the whole country.



posted on Aug, 5 2004 @ 07:28 PM
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the j-10 is intresting, pretty good, even if its a copy of the f-16 falcon. It is no match for the f-22 raptor, but i thinkit is a good step towards a competitive future



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