12 confirmed murdered and 25 injured after Gunman runs amok in Whitehaven, Egremont and Seascale, Cu

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


What I was mainly looking for, rather than isolated cases, is a sort of breakdown of how many crimes like this actually happen in the US on an annual, 5 yearly or whatever basis. Then, as I posted, the proportion of these ended by armed citizens as opposed to other reasons.

I'm not being lazy. I am looking too, but it would help if someone already knows of such info.

I will declare I am anti-gun, at least in the uk, for the reason I posted before. I am not naive enough though to say that I am anti-gun in the USA too. I was, until I learned a bit more about it.

Therefore I am genuinely interested to see if the claim that armed citizens are useful in ending these situations, rather than making them more likely to happen, is borne out by the facts.

Although I still say that the dense population here in the UK (both in terms of proximity and education) means that general gun ownership could never work here, except as a means of keeping the numbers down

Some of the people who have posted on here disgust me.

I think it's quite noticeable that the OP, members who live in the actual area where these events took place and actually know some of the victims and others who were contributing when it was actually about the EVENTS and were seeking facts and understanding have long since left this thread alone.

It has become nothing more than a bitch fest with people just wanting to spout their own personal convictions regardless of the will of other people and has little to do with the tragic events of today.

Continue as you wish safe in the knowledge that you have denied members the opportunity to share news, and grief, with each other.

This site is becoming inundated with bigotted, arrogant, opinionated egotists who have no interest other than seeing who can shout the loudest and who has the biggest penis!

Sorry. Only joined on the last page and did not realise. Will leave the thread alone.

Originally posted by windowlicker80

It wouldn't be long before this question would be asked, i fully agree with you if the british were armed it might of stopped this madman in his tracks but compare Britian with an armed country, this happens on average once every ten years here, how often does this occur in the states?

I think the awnser to that is very clear when there are 2034 crimes committed in the U.K. per 100,000 people, and in the U.S. there are 466 crimes per 100,000 people.

Crime, and more so gun crimes have increased in the U.K. since the ban of handguns.

If gun control works then why is it that EVERY country, and even in states in the U.S., where guns are banned, or heavily restricted gun crimes INCREASE? .... Every time...

Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade
By James Slack
Last updated at 8:42 AM on 27th October 2009

Gun crime has almost doubled since Labour came to power as a culture of extreme gang violence has taken hold.
The latest Government figures show that the total number of firearm offences in England and Wales has increased from 5,209 in 1998/99 to 9,865 last year - a rise of 89 per cent.
In some parts of the country, the number of offences has increased more than five-fold.
In eighteen police areas, gun crime at least doubled.
The statistic will fuel fears that the police are struggling to contain gang-related violence, in which the carrying of a firearm has become increasingly common place.
....

www.dailymail.co.uk...

reply to post by Freeborn


I'd left it alone partly becasue of what you have stated Free and also i have an exam tommorow and have been revising!

I'll try once again to get the thread back to the story.

It would appear this all began last night.

The killings were said by relatives to have begun with Bird shooting his twin brother, David, and the family’s solicitor, Kevin J. Commons, whose home was cordoned off by police last night. Those murders were said to have happened several hours before the first reports of shooting in Whitehaven.

One female relative told The Times that the twins’ other brother, Brian Bird, was in a state of utter shock. She said: “He is sitting there knowing that one of his brothers has killed the other brother. God knows how that feels.”

However the 90 year old Mother of Bird, as reported by woggleuk earlier in the thread, has not been shot.

Police corrected reports that Bird’s 90-year-old mother had been shot but refused to comment on claims by close family friends that there was a bitter legal dispute over her will.

www.timesonline.co.uk...

So this could have all started becasue of a dispute over his Mother's will?

[edit on 2-6-2010 by Peruvianmonk]

reply to post by Freeborn


This is a forum for discussion of events, and not everyone is going to think like you.

Whether you like it or not this tragic event involved a weapon, hence it is only natural that people would discuss the merits of gun ownership.

Yes, it is very tragic that this had to happen, but life continues on, hence people will try to think of ways to avoid this in the future to save lives.

If you don't like the fact that you will find people who think differently than you and who can, and should voice their opinions, then perhaps a public forum is not for you.

reply to post by waynos


According to Gary Kleck, Criminologist, Florida State "Guns prevent an estimated 2.5 million crimes a year, or 6849 per day." This was back in 1994.

He conducted a national survey in 1994 (the National Self-Defense Survey) and, extrapolating from the 5,000 households surveyed, estimated that in 1993 there were approximately 2.5 million incidents in which victims used guns for self-protection, compared to about four hundred thousand crimes committed by offenders with guns.

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


There is no need to be so aggressive toward Freeborn. This thread is breaking news about what happened in Cumbria today. Yes of course its fine to have a debate.

But this one about guns, U.S.v U.K. is pointless. The U.S. will never ban the free carrying of guns and Britian will never leaglise this. Simple

[edit on 2-6-2010 by Peruvianmonk]

Wow. They can't even defend themselves because they are barely allowed to have guns in the UK.

Edit:
I see I'm not the only one who immediately made note of the problem with owning guns in UK.

[edit on 6/2/2010 by OrphenFire]

reply to post by Peruvianmonk


I can't imagine what Bird's family must be going though at this moment in time.

To have lost your 2 brothers, or father and uncle etc, must be awful in itself.
But one at the hand of the other.
Beyond belief.
And then to think that one of your brothers was responsible for the resultant carnage, heart breaking.

And then all the families of the other victims.
To lose a loved one to such an indiscrimanate act must also be so hard to come to terms with.

The collateral damage is unimaginable.


I hope woggleuk's family and friends are all ok.

Oh, and good luck tomorrow with your exam.

reply to post by Peruvianmonk


I was aggressive towards freeborn?... I guess you didn't read his last response... in fact I left the discussion civil due to the fact that this is a tragic event...

According to "freeborn" when anyone tries to show facts they are "trying to shout the loudest and trying to show whose penis is larger"...

But of course freeborn doesn't say anything about the British members who have tried to use this tragic event to post their opinionated claims, which are wrong, trying to advocate gun control...



[edit on 2-6-2010 by ElectricUniverse]

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


Listen pal, I've been a member here for nearly 3 years, I know this site is right for me!
The only people who will stop me from coming on here are me, if I ever decide I've had enough, or the staff etc if I ever seriously contravene T&C.
Neither are likely to happen just yet!

And the likes of you will never shut me up or discourage me, so sorry, looks like your stuck with me for a while yet!

I totally agree, gun law should be discussed.
Just not in this thread where we were trying to determine the actual events, who had committed the shootings, who had been hurt and maybe, just maybe why.

I don't understand why someone didn't start their own thread and discuss gun laws etc in light of these events, and guess what, I would probably have contributed.

Edit to add.

And I've never differentiated between UK and USA pro-gun carrying advocates, just that the debate is not for this tread.
The fact that the US constitution protects your right to bear arms is an American issue and is not 'breaking news' on this subject.

[edit on 2/6/10 by Freeborn]

Originally posted by Peruvianmonk
.............
But this one about guns, U.S.v U.K. is pointless. The U.S. will never ban the free carrying of guns and Britian will never leaglise this. Simple

There are many British people who disagree with you. In fact the largest British peaceful demonstration in the history of your nation was done to get back your right to own firearms, and your right to hunt, among other rights.

www.youtube.com...

As for the U.S., there are more than enough politicians who are part of the elite, and who like the politicians in the U.K. they want to ban firearms in the U.S.

Anything can happen in both countries.

reply to post by stealthyaroura


I hate how this is turned into a gun debate.. But since I don't mean to make a point and/or take some sort of political stance.. I'll post

Put simply; We own guns because we can. It's a tool that is available to us, I use it. There's no reason not to. Most of us don't go running around and shooting each other over stupid things. That's not how things work, and I don't understand why people in Europe think it is. I think there is a lack of understanding between cultures, and different views that comes strongly into play anyways.

i live about 15 miles away from this area, and i have family who live in seascale. luckily they were not attacked, however they knew some of the victims

mu thoughts are with them

reply to post by Freeborn


Surely it was inevitable that the whole gun issue would be brought up on a thread like this? It's not a pretty debate, but when I heard about this it did raise the gun control thing in my head. Sometimes there isn't a right time or place for such a thing to be discussed. It just happens when it happens. I am sure that this will be a probable catalyst for some sort of anti-firearms movement as well, but only time will tell.

I've said my bit about it though, and will leave it at that and hope that the families involved can come to terms with everything that happened, and my condolences to every single one of them.

Originally posted by Freeborn

Listen pal, I've been a member here for nearly 3 years, I know this site is right for me!
The only people who will stop me from coming on here are me, if I ever decide I've had enough, or the staff etc if I ever seriously contravene T&C.
Neither are likely to happen just yet!

I didn't say that you should leave, but rather that perhaps a public forum is not for you since you got so angry when people like me tried to show the facts to the members making false claims.

You dind't say anything against the British members who were making false claims, and were advocating gun control, in fact you defended British members claiming your people were the only ones contributing... Yet there were UK members in this same thread who were making false claims, and advocating gun control.. Those were the people some other members and I were responding to... We were trying to show the facts.

BTW, yes, this event continues to be tragic, but are we going to learn from it, or keep making the same mistakes?

Originally posted by Freeborn

And the likes of you will never shut me up or discourage me, so sorry, looks like your stuck with me for a while yet!

... I never said you should shut up, it was you trying to stop those of us who were giving facts and responding to the false claims made by several British members....

Originally posted by Freeborn
I totally agree, gun law should be discussed.
Just not in this thread where we were trying to determine the actual events, who had committed the shootings, who had been hurt and maybe, just maybe why.

Because even British members were making false claims in this thread...and of course you weren't saying anything about those members...you started complaining after some of us were trying to show facts...

Originally posted by Freeborn
I don't understand why someone didn't start their own thread and discuss gun laws etc in light of these events, and guess what, I would probably have contributed.

If there was a car accident of someone famous, even a famous conspiracy theorist, and that person died because of their seat bealt you think people wouldn't have discussed the merits of having laws making seat belts mandatory in that same thread?... More so when members already were discussing seat belts?.... We have had such threads in the past btw, and let's not forget the 911 threads...

[edit on 2-6-2010 by ElectricUniverse]

Another crazy guy...what's wrong with people these days?

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


Ha ha ha ha. Largest peaceful protest in our history!?? You are actually having a laugh aren't you?

I think you will find that that honour gos to the march against the British joining of the U.S. illegal invasion of Iraq in 2003.

I'm out.

[edit on 2-6-2010 by Peruvianmonk]

Originally posted by Peruvianmonk
Ha ha ha ha. Largest peaceful protest in our history!?? You are actually having a laugh aren't you?

I think you will find that that honour gos to the march against the British joining of the U.S. illegal invasion of Iraq in 2003.

I'm out.

...As it was reported by the British media, and you would have noticed if you had watched the video....

But anyway, perhaps now people can realize the real reason for you posting this thread. But I could be wrong...


[edit on 2-6-2010 by ElectricUniverse]