Young Aussie genius whipping NASA in Moon Hoax Debate!

Thank you James P. Dawson for being so honest in your oral history. www.jsc.nasa.gov/history/oral.../DawsonJP/DawsonJP_11-9-00.pdf

SPECIAL AWARDS:
Distinguished Alumnus Award, Southwestern Oklahoma State University, 1978.
Mensa Member Four Sigma.
Achievement Award, Science and Applications Directorate, Manned Spacecraft Center, 1969.
Achievement Award, Apollo Science Team, NASA, 1970.
Achievement Award, Lunar Receiving Laboratory Program Office, NASA, 1969.
Achievement Award, Apollo Principal Investigator on Lunar Samples, NASA, 1969-1975.

The point is, all three of these could not have been made at the same time under the same conditions, and could not have been made inside that rock. That rock had to be a composite. So what part were you going to count to make it four billion years old? You could not. You never heard NASA say anything more about the four billion-year-old rock. All the great scientists were flipping, because here are a bunch of young cats down there playing engineering, using engineering parameters, were really poking holes in the idea that the Moon was four billion years old, which is what NASA put out.

From what we could tell, it couldn't possibly be more than 20,000 years old. So the counts, the radiation counts, are almost fictitious, because you don't know what was there to start with. They say, "Well, when something is formed, like a rock formed, melted, from that point on, it decays." Well, that's fine. But what do you do if every rock out there is a mixture? I mean, how many pure rocks do you have? Diamond. Okay. This sort of thing. They don't know.

reply to post by SayonaraJupiter


Funny... why did you leave this part out?

PUBLICATIONS:
Dr. Dawson has published 87 technical articles in Thermodynamics, Radiation Physics and Remote sensing and written seven books:
I AM -- on Bible Prophecy; published by the Oklahoma Foundation, 1979, third printing 55,000 copies.
Why Believe? -- dealing with Biblical apologetics.
Truth versus Tradition -- A comparison of "common knowledge" to what the Bible actually states.
In the Days of Peleg -- an analysis of the Continental Drift and Plate Tectonic Theories from a biblical perspective, which indicates the center of movement is from Israel.
The Works -- a collection of articles on biblical topics.
Jacob's Trouble -- A novel dealing with the conditions just before and after the rapture.
Redscam -- A novel of Israeli intrigue, based on real experiences of Dr. Dawson when he was doing oil exploration in Israel.

drjpdawson.com...

Normally you use a person's fundamentalist Christian beliefs to tar their credibility. Now you're using a Creationist's testimony to support your claims. Inconsistent much?

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by FoosM

 

Thats what the videos show.

What videos? There were no video transmissions during the landing.

Good god man, keep up!
The videos that we have been posting here that we can get on the web!
The internets do not support any film formats that Im aware of.

Originally posted by SayonaraJupiter
FoosM, I think James P. Dawson has got some important things to say. Check it out.

You found a "goldmine" there SJ

In carbon dating, when samples of a known age are test, Radioisotope Dating doesn’t work. When samples are of an unknown age, Radioisotope Dating is assumed to work. This doesn’t make sense.

“Ever since William Smith at the beginning of the 19th century, fossils have been and still are the best and most accurate method of dating and correlating the rocks in which they occur. Apart from very ‘modern’ examples, which are really archaeology, I can think of no cases of radioactive decay being used to date fossils.” (Derek V. Ager, Fossil Frustrations, New Scientist, vol. 100, November 10, 1983, p. 425).

“Radiometric dating would not have been feasible if the geologic column had not been erected first.” (J.E. O’Rourke, Pragmatism versus Materialism in Stratigraphy, American Journal of Science, vol. 276, January 1976, p. 54).

“In the last two years an absolute date has been obtained for the Ngandong beds, above the Trinil beds, and it has the very interesting value of 300,000 years plus or minus 300,000 years (so they don’t really know). (J.B. Birdsell, Human Evolution, Rand McNally, 1975, p. 295).

Moon rocks brought back in 1969, were given to many different laboratories to be dated. One rock (specimen 10017) was divided into 6 pieces and dated many times. The ages ranged from 2.5 billion to 4.6 billion years. This is a 90% error rate, from the same rock.


James P. Dawson, Chief of Engineering and Operations for the Lunar and Earth Science Division at the Manned Spacecraft Center NASA in Houston. He worked on lunar samples including the Genesis rock. He said they found ages from 10,000 years to several billion years in the same rock.

So, we are getting contradictions on top of contradictions regarding these moon rocks.
Unbelievable.




www.atenizo.org...

Originally posted by DJW001

Normally you use a person's fundamentalist Christian beliefs to tar their credibility. Now you're using a Creationist's testimony to support your claims. Inconsistent much?

Umm.... where is the inconsistency? Do you agree with Dawson's findings or dont you.
Dawson was the Apollo Principal Investigator on Lunar Samples from 1969-1975.


And he said this:

Thus the very processes which we use to determine the age of geologic strata and the mechanism for determining the formation of the geologic ages have themselves been undergoing changes as the speed of light has decreased since creation. An example of this was demonstrated in the studies on the "Genesis Rock" returned from the moon. The gamma ray count suggested that the rock may be 4 billion years old, thus the name Genesis. However, when we fractured the rock 172 we found the particles shown in Figures 99 through 102. The individual fragments of the rock could not have been formed at the same time and the age measurements were not valid, since the counting value assumes a decay from the time the rock was formed. This is why NASA dropped the idea of using the lunar samples as an age criterion in measurements. Many of the methods used to measure age are in question when used to interpret ages of more than 10,000 years. This information has led many scientists to "rethink" the definition of geologic ages based on these "time" measurements. Also, many live specimens of the "index fossils" have been found in recent years.

Age of the Earth

If the speed of light has changed, then the scientific explanation of the age of the earth needs to be revised and the geological ages may have been condensed into the relative short period of time as indicated in the Bible. The onset of the Continental Drift could have been in the days of Peleg.

The geological supposition that the earth is millions of years old has some very troublesome conflicts with other scientific information. For example, if the earth's magnetic field is decaying exponentially as indicated by physics, 177 Figure 93, the earth would have been a magnetic star between 7,000 and 14,000 years ago. These figures allow for experimental error and error in extrapolation from the 130 years of available data. The decay of uranium to lead also presents a problem for the geological ages. If one takes the amount of Lead that is present in the United States today and extrapolates this amount to uranium that would be present in the past, Figure 92, one finds that the earth would have been so radioactively hot 25,000 years ago, that biological life could not have existed.

Atomic dating is based on these same decay curves, and it is assumed that the decay rate is constant. When the Lunar Samples were returned from the Apollo missions, NASA claimed that the Genesis rock, Figure 98, was four billion years old, based on radiation counts.

But all three glass particles were present in the interior of the Genesis rock. This would be impossible if all of the rock were formed at one time. Then what portion of the rock was being counted, and how was it formed? NASA dropped the idea of the Genesis rock because the gamma counts were obviously in question. In many instances the atomic methods of determining age are subject to errors.
Scientists and Bible scholars have said that the Bible is not a book of science, but when it speaks of scientific things it has not been shown to be wrong. Many scientists try to adjust their acceptance of the Bible to fit their scientific beliefs instead of adjusting their science to fit the Bible.

God said in Genesis 1:9 that there was a single land mass and science now agrees. He said the earth was divided and science agrees, although the time frame for the separation is in question by science. The proposed CDK could bring this time frame of separation into alignment with God's time frame.
If these verses hold true, then what about the verses:

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." Genesis 1:1.

"A thousand years is like a day, and a day like a thousand years." II Peter 3:8.

"And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Zion, and with him a hundred forty and four thousand, . . ." Revelation 14:1.

". . . and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Revelation 20:4.

When the following Bible verses are taken as they were written:

And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. Genesis 1:9.

And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided, Genesis 10:25.

And upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land, Ezekiel 38:12.

www.drjpdawson.com...

So then, how was the moon, and the earth created?

reply to post by FoosM

Haw Haw,
Dawson never worked on dating moon rocks, his area of expertise was concerned with their thermal properties.
As DJ has shown the guy is a bible-weilding-end-times-are-coming creationist.
Goldmine my butt.
But hey, lest we accidentally turn this into a religion vs science debate, I would personally avoid dragging creationist testimony into this thread?

reply to post by SayonaraJupiter

James P. Dawson was a significant historical character in the Apollo Mythology, he has his own oral history on file at NASA.

Man, you are being hypocritical.

James P. Daeson, being a rabid fundie and creationist, bible-thumper extraordinaire.....and you called him part of the "Apollo Mythology"???

A man who would have most likely been (in your skewed view of historical facts) the ONE to actually "blow the lid" on any NASA "fakery"....and, now you are citing his work and commentaries??? :shk:

Hypocritical bottom-of-the-barrel scraping and maneuvering, the extent of which has just gone into epic territory........

Originally posted by ProudBird
reply to post by SayonaraJupiter

 

James P. Dawson was a significant historical character in the Apollo Mythology, he has his own oral history on file at NASA.

Man, you are being hypocritical.

James P. Daeson, being a rabid fundie and creationist, bible-thumper extraordinaire.....and you called him part of the "Apollo Mythology"???

You still dont see how that goes hand in hand?
LOL.
He was a NASA man, an Apollo man.
He was part of the program whether you like it or not.

So now we have NAZI's, CIA (Hit)men, Racists, and Christian Fundamentalist working for NASA during Apollo.
Great

reply to post by FoosM

So now we have NAZI's, CIA (Hit)men, Racists, and Christian Fundamentalist working for NASA during Apollo.
Great

Don't forget the RABID ANTI-COMMUNISTS!]

Originally posted by seabhac-rua
reply to post by FoosM

 

Haw Haw,
Dawson never worked on dating moon rocks, his area of expertise was concerned with their thermal properties.
As DJ has shown the guy is a bible-weilding-end-times-are-coming creationist.
Goldmine my butt.

Are you saying he did not work on dating the "genesis rock"?

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by FoosM

 

So now we have NAZI's, CIA (Hit)men, Racists, and Christian Fundamentalist working for NASA during Apollo.
Great

Don't forget the RABID ANTI-COMMUNISTS!

I didnt forget that label, but who was exactly was it ?

From a one-liner in James P Dawson's official NASA oral history, we found,

"Luis Alvarez, as I say, they gave him three million, but he was a Nobel Prize winner." - quote from James P Dawnson's official NASA oral history www.jsc.nasa.gov/history/oral.../DawsonJP/DawsonJP_11-9-00.pdf

Any quick search on Luis Alvarez will provide enough information to confirm that he is a highly ranked DoD scientist.

While at the Los Alamos Laboratory, Professor Alvarez developed the detonators for setting off the plutonium bomb. He flew as a scientific observer at both the Almagordo and Hiroshima explosions. Source www.nobelprize.org...

On the table is a model of a pyramid constructed some 13 years ago when he and a team from LBL searched the pyramid of Cephren at Giza for hidden chambers, using cosmic rays as the probe. Behind the pyramid is a large, plastic three-dimensional star map, evidence of his involvement in astrophysics.

It's amazingly clear that Luis Alvarez was in the top tier of DoD science,

He was on board the bomber Enola Gay when it dropped the bomb on Hiroshima. Alvarez was shocked and sickened by what he saw, but because the war ended so soon afterwards, he never expressed doubts about the bomb's use. In fact, he was one of few scientists who had worked on the bomb who felt the U.S. should continue weapons development and make a hydrogen bomb.

And.... well.... he just so happens to be involved in the Warren Commission, too.

Alvarez's other claims to fame are in assisting the Warren Commission that investigated the assasination of President Kennedy and holding 22 patents, including an indoor golf-training machine he developed for President Eisenhower. Alvarez died of cancer in 1988. Source www.pbs.org...

Link to Luis Alvarez "jet-effect" research for the Warren Commission.
www.jfklancer.com...

reply to post by SayonaraJupiter

And.... well.... he just so happens to be involved in the Warren Commission, too.

You conveniently forgot to mention the Nobel Prize:

The Nobel Prize in Physics 1968 was awarded to Luis Alvarez "for his decisive contributions to elementary particle physics, in particular the discovery of a large number of resonance states, made possible through his development of the technique of using hydrogen bubble chamber and data analysis".

www.nobelprize.org...

1968, eh? I wonder why he was at the top of the list for his monopole research...?

reply to post by FoosM

Are you saying he did not work on dating the "genesis rock"?

Only after he left NASA and found God.

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by FoosM

 

Are you saying he did not work on dating the "genesis rock"?

Only after he left NASA and found God.

Proof?
But regardless, whats the difference?
You are now saying that NASA gave him access to the rock even after he
stopped working for them. So, how does that invalidate his findings?

Face it guys, you cant squirm your way out of this one either.
LOL.

reply to post by FoosM

Proof?
But regardless, whats the difference?
You are now saying that NASA gave him access to the rock even after he
stopped working for them. So, how does that invalidate his findings?

Face it guys, you cant squirm your way out of this one either.
LOL.

We're obviously not the ones squirming here. You guys finally find your "whistleblower," but it turns out he's a religious fanatic who is trying to get the Earth as close to 5,000 years old as Mad Science can get it, like the "scientists" who scrape brown crud out of a fossilized bone and claim that it proves triceratops lived 1,500 years ago! Even then, despite every possible motivation to decry the Apollo missions as an unholy fraud, he is absolutely convinced that they are on the level. In fact, he seems to think we could be on Mars by now if JFK had been more ambitious.

Of course, despite the fact that he repeats over and over again that the rocks actually came from the Moon, even I wouldn't necessarily trust his memory. He definitely wasn't the one who picked out the rocks for rabid anti-communist and crook Spiro T. Agnew's propaganda offensive. Here is how he remembers it:

But on Borman's flight, the first cislunar, they did delay that so he would be coming back when congressional committees were meeting, and that really whacked everybody off, because from then on it was politics. They were telling us to be so careful and all this sort of thing, and here come President [Lyndon B.] Johnson up and sends fifty pounds all over the world. We were telling the great scientists, "You can't have any more because this is too precious to do it." And he shipped it all over the place. But that didn't set well either.

www.jsc.nasa.gov...

The proof that he did his "Genesis Rock" research after he left NASA is in the above pdf. Now why wouldn't NASA allow him access to lunar samples after he left? He was working out of a real geological laboratory and submitted proper experimental protocols. After all, it's not like they had anything to hide.

reply to post by FoosM

Moon rocks brought back in 1969, were given to many different laboratories to be dated. One rock (specimen 10017) was divided into 6 pieces and dated many times. The ages ranged from 2.5 billion to 4.6 billion years. This is a 90% error rate, from the same rock.

www.atenizo.org...

So now you've taken to citing Creationist websites? Really? I noticed that your source's source for his claims was a fellow named Horvist. The name sounded familiar, so I clicked on the link. Of course! It was good old "Doctor Dino," whom I have encountered elsewhere. He literally is one of the lunatics who scrapes brown crud out of a fossil and proclaims that triceratops lived 1,500 years ago! Anyway, the range of dates he claims is no secret, you can see NASA brazenly publishing it about three pages into this document:

www.curator.jsc.nasa.gov...

You will note that the dating provided by three separate teams using Rubidium/Strontium ratios are in close agreement. Another team using Samarium/Neodymium dating was slightly younger, but still in the same ballpark. The real outlier is the Argon/Argon dating, but as the table explains, there may be new decay constants to consider.

Edit to correct dead link: Go to:
www.lpi.usra.edu...
Then click on: "Lunar Sample 10017 Compendium" to access the pdf file.

Originally posted by DJW001
Of course, despite the fact that he repeats over and over again that the rocks actually came from the Moon, even I wouldn't necessarily trust his memory. He definitely wasn't the one who picked out the rocks for rabid anti-communist and crook Spiro T. Agnew's propaganda offensive. Here is how he remembers it:

But on Borman's flight, the first cislunar, they did delay that so he would be coming back when congressional committees were meeting, and that really whacked everybody off, because from then on it was politics. They were telling us to be so careful and all this sort of thing, and here come President [Lyndon B.] Johnson up and sends fifty pounds all over the world. We were telling the great scientists, "You can't have any more because this is too precious to do it." And he shipped it all over the place. But that didn't set well either.

Are you going to discredit his entire NASA career for a simple memory lapse like that? I love it when NASA/Apollo cheerleaders are forced to debunk their own NASA/Apollo scientists

If James P Dawson is not the likeliest candidate, do you have any other likely possibilities?

October 1967 to September 1978
Dr. Dawson was a Co-Investigator on the Lunar Samples for the Apollo Science Team.

January 1965 to August 1969
Chief of the Engineering and Operations, NASA Houston. Dr. Dawson served as Chief of the Engineering and Operations Branch of the Lunar and Earth Sciences Division at the Manned Spacecraft Center from 1965 to 1969.

Perfect cubes...

That's fine, except we also found perfect cubes of glass, and to form a perfect cube of glass takes extremely slow cooling, with absolutely no interference.

Source Johnson Space Center Oral History Project James P. Dawson

Originally posted by DJW001

Of course, despite the fact that he repeats over and over again that the rocks actually came from the Moon, even I wouldn't necessarily trust his memory. He definitely wasn't the one who picked out the rocks for rabid anti-communist and crook Spiro T. Agnew's propaganda offensive. Here is how he remembers it:

But on Borman's flight, the first cislunar, they did delay that so he would be coming back when congressional committees were meeting, and that really whacked everybody off, because from then on it was politics. They were telling us to be so careful and all this sort of thing, and here come President [Lyndon B.] Johnson up and sends fifty pounds all over the world. We were telling the great scientists, "You can't have any more because this is too precious to do it." And he shipped it all over the place. But that didn't set well either.

LBJ ??? They picked up 50 pounds of what exactly during Apollo 8?

Originally posted by DJW001

We're obviously not the ones squirming here. You guys finally find your "whistleblower,"

How is he whistleblowing?

but it turns out he's a religious fanatic who is trying to get the Earth as close to 5,000 years old as Mad Science can get it,

So just because he actually believes in his holy book makes him a "fanatic"?
Isnt that a bit harsh? Are you anti-religion or something?

like the "scientists" who scrape brown crud out of a fossilized bone and claim that it proves triceratops lived 1,500 years ago!

So now you dont trust scientists.
Or you dont trust scientists who bring forth information that disagrees with your world view.
Even though you did not live 1,500 years ago.

Even then, despite every possible motivation to decry the Apollo missions as an unholy fraud, he is absolutely convinced that they are on the level. In fact, he seems to think we could be on Mars by now if JFK had been more ambitious.

Many scientists, engineers, including von Braun himself and NASA were preparing to venture to Mars. They still are to do this day. Thats the grand prize to visit another planet. So whats the problem? You make it sound like something bad.

www.jsc.nasa.gov...

The proof that he did his "Genesis Rock" research after he left NASA is in the above pdf. Now why wouldn't NASA allow him access to lunar samples after he left? He was working out of a real geological laboratory and submitted proper experimental protocols. After all, it's not like they had anything to hide.

So what if he did work on it after? Why did you bring it up? You make it sound bad, then you say

Now why wouldn't NASA allow him access to lunar samples after he left?

I dont know, you are the one who brought it up.
But where is your proof that he didnt research it WHILE working at NASA?
Here is my proof that he did:

BERGEN: When you worked as the principal investigator working with the lunar samples, did you find anything that surprised you?
DAWSON: Yes, almost got us excommunicated from NASA. They had a sample that they called the Genesis rock, and we had it, had a piece of it. We split it to do our experiments...

...That rock had to be a composite. So what part were you going to count to make it four billion years old? You could not. You never heard NASA say anything more about the four billion-year-old rock. All the great scientists were flipping, because here are a bunch of young cats down there playing engineering, using engineering parameters, were really poking holes in the idea that the Moon was four billion years old, which is what NASA put out.

So, was he wrong?
Is or isnt the rock a composite?

And again, you guys are making a point of his religious affiliations, but are doing next to nothing proving that his science is wrong.

The man said, the only difference between the moon rocks and earth rocks is that Earth has vegetation. Basically what JW had found himself. So this man is in agreement with JW.