Obama slams Arizona immigration bill

Originally posted by LeaderOfProgress

But we as true American citizens must carry an ID on us or else we can be arrested on the spot and detained until proper identification can be procured. So why should this be shot down?

It should be shot down simply because the premise of the bill is that you are a non US Citizen until you can prove otherwise. That means that the burden of proof is on the individual. That burden should not lie with the individual. That is not what this country was built upon.

There should not be any laws mandating that you carry ID (or a birth certificate) at all times. The local laws regarding driving say that you must have a drivers license on you while operating a vehicle. It does not say that you must have a drivers license when the vehicle is not in use - only when it is in use. That is fair.

A person walking down the street is not federally required to carry photo ID or a birth certificate or a social security card - so how can a State law over-rule that????

Everyone in the US, except the Native American Indians, is an immigrant. Will Indians need to have these ID documents too????

This bill/law is just plain stupid. It serves no purpose and is federally illegal - and Fed laws always over-ride state laws.

This bill/law will mandate that you must carry these documents, or you go to jail. In my opinion, that is just 100% wrong.

I don't think this bill/law will not last long. It will be challenged and will fail.

-E2

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
Good for Obama...he should speak out against UNCONSTITUTIONAL laws.

I just find it hilarious that when a law is directly unconstitutional...no one cares...because it targets minorities. But you will abandon logic, create false information, and cry and scream about the healthcare bill.

People are crazy and illogical.


Bottom line...Arizona will go bankrupt over this law...and they deserve it.

How is enforcing preexisting laws unconstitutional?

They are called illegals for a reason. If you reply to this I would like you to tell me why you think they are called illegals.

reply to post by EyesII

That means that the burden of proof is on the individual.

EVERY time I have dealt with police.. like being pulled over.. I am required to prove who I am .. one time I did forget my wallet, but with my SS number he was able to prove I was who I claimed I was and did in fact own the car I was driving.

So whats the big deal? The police might pull over a Mexican who cant speak English and has a drivers license with the name Jose Cuervo and an SS number of a 70 year old man living 10 states away?

No .. that argument is done.. because we already prove who we are.. the police KNOW who the illegals are when they deal with them, they just cant do anything about it.

so how can a State law over-rule that

Verbally giving your SS number, name and address is enough to determine if someone is a citizen. When you become a naturalized citizen you receive a SS number.

Everyone in the US, except the Native American Indians, is an immigrant

THAT is a bunch of Liberal BS. I am not an immigrant. I was born here. So were my parents, and theirs, and theirs before them. Illegal immigrants are born in Mexico, Guatemala, Ukraine, Nigeria, China or where ever else... not here. And if you want to bandy on about the poor native americans who lost their lands several generations ago -- guess what.. at one point they came here from somewhere else. It's a strawman argument.

and Fed laws always over-ride state laws.

False.

The problem is not enforcing the law with the illegal aliens, the problem is that you can't stop every person that 'looks' like they might not be a citizen and arrest or deport them if they can't provide the proof. It sometimes takes weeks for ICE to verify immigration documents, and you can find plenty of news items on US citizens being forcefully deported and left without money or shelter on the wrong side of the border.

You start policing this way and law or no law, the State of Arizona will be open to endless civil rights violation suits. And any smart citizen that happens to look 'furrin' would head straight there and wait for the jackpot.

reply to post by mythatsabigprobe


From my understanding of the Law it is not to encourage police offers to target people specifically to ask their immigration status, but that when dealing with them like on a police call, traffic stop etc .. part of identifying them will be to see if they are indeed a citizen. If they are not, and have no visa -- bye bye Illegal. And no doubt the cowardly bastards will sue at every instance they can, theyd stop at nothing for their self gratification and quest to destroy the American borders.

reply to post by Rockpuck


If that's the case then I actually have no problem with this law. It always has been an offense to enter the country illegally and the police should absolutely be able to enforce that law.

reply to post by Hypntick

What part of this is unconstitutional?

Try all of it...it all violates the 4th amendment.

I would think any citizen of the US, natural born or otherwise would agree with the measures being taken in order to ensure that laws are being followed.

No...I don't agree with the violation of any citizens rights in an attempt to enforce a law...and this is exactly what this bill is doing. There is an active thread right now talking about a American Citizen truck driver (born in the US) that was handcuffed and detained AFTER he showed his CDL and gave his SSN...that wasn't enough...they wanted to see his birth certificate. And why??? Because he had brown skin and was of hispanic decent.

So that is just fine with you huh? American citizens being cuffed and hauled off even with two forms of identification???

Like I said...I really don't care because this is just going to bankrupt Arizona.

reply to post by mythatsabigprobe


Also many states already allow police to identify illegals, I know in Ohio I worked with a young guy that was deported back to Mexico when he got pulled over for having a cracked windshield (massive crack im surprised it never blew in on him). His friend came in to work one day and said he was sitting in jail .. 2 weeks later shipped off to Tennessee then Mexico. But, as his friend pointed out, it was no big deal because it only cost $600 for a bus ticket back to Ohio.

Arizona's law I believe is targeting big cities specifically, what we call "sanctuary" cities, where it is illegal to process immigration laws. The jobs of Phoenix police officers just got a lot easier.

reply to post by Miracle Man

How is enforcing preexisting laws unconstitutional?

They are called illegals for a reason. If you reply to this I would like you to tell me why you think they are called illegals.

That is all fine and dandy...except this law allows police to harrass AMERICAN CITIZENS who just happen to be hispanic. No citizen should have to carry papers around to prove they are a citizen...unless of course you want to be like Nazi Germany.

I'm sure you don't care about that though...because they are hispanic and who cares if their rights are violated...american citizen or not....right?

reply to post by OutKast Searcher

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

I'm sorry I don't see anything in there protecting someone from being asked if they are a citizen of the United States. Not to mention they are not here legally, are they really protected by our constitution?

Originally posted by mythatsabigprobe
reply to post by Rockpuck

 

If that's the case then I actually have no problem with this law. It always has been an offense to enter the country illegally and the police should absolutely be able to enforce that law.

This could easily become a jurisdiction issue as well. What jurisdiction does a local cop have to enforce a federal law?

Can they also check to see if I paid my income taxes??? Because that is just as much a federal law as immigration is. If I don't have proof of paying my income taxes...should they arrest me until they can verify with the IRS that I have paid them in full?

Come on...THINK people.

reply to post by Rockpuck


You're not getting it...if they ask an illegal and he can't prove it and is deported...fine...no harm no foul really.

But AMERICAN CITIZENS are going to be subjected to this law as well. Have you not seen the article/thread about the hispanic trucker that was handcuffed and detained until his wife could produce his birth certificate??? He was an American Citizen...he was born in the United States...HIS constitutional rights were violated. So what is your argument for that...ends justify the means???

What do you not understand about this?

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


If a person is here illegally, they are not just violating Federal Laws, they are not protected under the constitution guaranteeing free movement of people between states.. as they have no legal right to be in that state. Therefore, the State government (and it's municipalities) may enforce the Federal Law, or the State laws.

To say cops can't enforce Federal laws is stupid. Nothing short of it. This isn't the only Federal law being enforced.. many, like drug enforcement, are centered around Federal laws. So is the Drinking Age law. Along with many other Felonies.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher

But AMERICAN CITIZENS are going to be subjected to this law as well.

Ask any cop .. it's easy to determine who is and is not here legally. Whenever an American is caught in the system, they will eventually be compensated with a nice civil rights lawsuit. Maybe if their fellows were not invading this country, the Hispanic population wouldn't be targeted.

I don't really care much for peoples feelings being hurt.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher

The Fourth Amendment protects against unreasonable searches, but not every government action to obtain information is a "search." A search occurs only when 1) a person expects privacy in the thing searched and 2) society believes that expectation is reasonable.

The Fourth Amendment

Being asked for your identification is unreasonable?

Taking a look at the bill here shows that law enforcement must prove a reasonable suspicion in order to require documentation. Obviously that burden of proof is going to fall to them in the form of lawsuits.

It also states (line 27) that if an illegal is found to have committed a crime, after serving their sentence or remitting restitution they are to be turned over to be deported. Nothing wrong with this either as I think we can both agree that criminals should be removed.

On line 37 it reiterates the need for probable cause. Once again this will force the burden of proof on law enforcement.

14 C. IT IS UNLAWFUL FOR A PERSON WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED 15 STATES AND WHO IS AN UNAUTHORIZED ALIEN TO KNOWINGLY APPLY FOR WORK, SOLICIT 16 WORK IN A PUBLIC PLACE OR PERFORM WORK AS AN EMPLOYEE OR INDEPENDENT 17 CONTRACTOR IN THIS STATE.

Ah I see it allows for enforcement of already existing federal laws as well. Since if you are in the country illegally then you are not reporting your income to be taxed which is obviously quite illegal in this country.

3 23-212.01. Intentionally employing unauthorized aliens; 4 prohibition; false and frivolous complaints; 5 violation; classification; license suspension and 6 revocation; affirmative defense

Don't see anything wrong with this, as this is also already federally illegal. It just allows for enforcement of existing laws.

Any other problems you have with it?

[edit on 4/23/10 by Hypntick]

reply to post by Rockpuck

To say cops can't enforce Federal laws is stupid. Nothing short of it. This isn't the only Federal law being enforced.. many, like drug enforcement, are centered around Federal laws. So is the Drinking Age law. Along with many other Felonies.

It's not stupid...it's the truth. Local cops can ONLY enforce federal laws when the federal government gives them the authority to. No authority was given in this case.

Your other examples are STATE laws that are based off of fedral laws. The state has the right to arrest someone for those offenses...they don't have the right of deportation out of the country. Please think...you seem to be blinded by your hate of hispanics.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


Well AZ just made it illegal to be in the state of AZ as an illegal alien. In which case they are enforcing their local law. The state of AZ is not deporting them, they are merely transferring the illegal to a deportation center. It is then up to the immigration services to deport them.

Looks to me that AZ is just forcing the federal govt. to enforce the federal laws. Which I also have no problem with.

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


The State will detain them, the Federal agencies will deport them. And I don't hate Hispanics. I hate illegal immigrants who feel they can treat our system with contempt but be protected by it all the same. Supported by bleeding heart fools who desire nothing more than to see our borders destroyed. Go home and come back the legal way, i'd greet them with open arms. Till then they are petty criminals.

reply to post by Rockpuck

Ask any cop .. it's easy to determine who is and is not here legally.

Really...are they mind readers? I respect cops for the job they do...but in general you don't have the brightest bulbs working the street. So I have respect for the job they do...but I don't hold their intelligence or abilitity to magically determine legality in high regard. It can take weeks or months for ICE to determine legal status...but according to you these super cops can just tell by looking at them (most likely looking at their skin color).

Whenever an American is caught in the system, they will eventually be compensated with a nice civil rights lawsuit.

I agree...and I am fully expecting this and seeing Arizona bankrupt themselves because of their ignorance.

Maybe if their fellows were not invading this country, the Hispanic population wouldn't be targeted.

Oh I see...they deserve it because of the color of their skin. But let me guess...you are not racist...right???

And you just accused of someone using a strawman for calling out whites stealing this land from the native americans...do you not see your own hypocrisy???

reply to post by Rockpuck

Go home and come back the legal way, i'd greet them with open arms.

So if Obama grants them amnesty...then they are 100% LEGAL...you will welcome them with open arms???

Doesn't matter if you agree with the policy of amnesty or not...bottom line is that that will be as legal as you and me...so would you accept them then???