Tea Party, Where's The Beef?

Originally posted by OldDragger
HINT: Get big business under control, and you will have big government under control.

Ok...so bigger government at the federal level will fix it all or will it just bury us deeper? I can tell you the MOA business is health care and I sure do not see Obama working on fixing that….

Maybe I’m wrong, but dumping trillions into it will just feed the beast even more. Health insurance is not the issue it is health cost that our Government should be working on reducing. I can pay 30 bucks cash for an appointment at a clinic outside the health care umbrella or I can pay 800 bucks through my insurance for the same visit inside the umbrella. It seems to work but that 800 bucks is still the bill for the person who doesn’t have insurance.

Control is the deal here using health care, and if you do not want to be under that control than you will be ruin by healthcare cost. Just live in another country and you would be amazed at how much lower that cost can be that makes insurance really not needed or at an extremely lower need to off set a much lower personal cost that can actually be paid out of pocket without much effort.

IF and a big if Obama actually fixed health care I would have more faith in him fixing other huge corporations, but I fear nothing will be changed except for he will slay some beast that do not really need slaying and he will feed others that should be dealt with while my personal liabilities will rise extremely high in the end.



[edit on 17-4-2010 by Xtrozero]

reply to post by iamcamouflage


My friend, the reason you are having such a hard time getting a straight answer is that there is no straight answers. The "tea party" isn't a political party, a formal association, or even an informal association. Most people who are called tea partiers wouldn't even prefer to be referred to as such.

You're going to get as many different answers as their are people in the movement. There is no party platform, no planks, no loyalty tests purity tests or litmus tests. It's just what it is, which is just some folks getting together under the full power of their own steam.

There is no god in the machine.

reply to post by Daytomann


Ok so what is meant by smaller govt and lower taxes. What programs should be cut? These are not questions just for politicians. I know where I stand on most of these issues. Why dont the TP supporters?

What is meant by smaller govt? Does this apply to just the federal govt, or state and local govts as well.

The only things I hear from TPM supporters is "we want smaller govt", but we want to keep medicare, medicaid, and SS(p.s. these 3 things represent 50% of your federal taxes). They want lower taxes, but where do we cut money from to lower them? Like I said Medicare, medicaid, and SS are 50%, defense spending is around 20% and the remaining 30% is every other govt department. That small 30% represents all education funding, transportation funding and every other alphabet department.

As some have pointed out almost 50% of the population pay little to no taxes so I'm not sure how they can get much lower for that group.

Do they want to cut defense spending? SS, Medicare, medicaid? What about the 2% that goes towards education? Are they not happy with the highway system that brought them to their rallies? Are they not happy with the public park that allows them a location to hold their rallies? Are they not happy with the public libraries that provided Glenn Beck with his education?

If you cannot form an opinion on these issues or cannot decide where to cut the money from for lower taxes, I'm not sure what to tell you.

You are not going to get very far convincing any person or politician that your ideas are well thought out.

n/a

[edit on 17-4-2010 by Daytomann]

Originally posted by iamcamouflage
Any Tea Party supporters care to answer any of the questions I have listed?

We cant really have an honest discussion if I dont know where the members of this movement stand.

Why do you need answers to questions that you most likely thought up as you wrote your post? Those are questions for an elected official or someone running for an office to answer.

Let me as you a question, what is it with Obama that you really like what is happening and why? I worked hard all my life and have made a few good choices and so at the age of 50 I’m what you would call upper middle class and all I want is to pay my FAIR share of taxes and not have Government tell me everything that I need or need not do. So who is going to pay these trillions? I fear the answer is it will personally affect me at a level that my future goals will not be reached.

Maybe there are others like me who feel the same way…maybe many are in the tea party….

All I can do is give you my ideas. They wouldnt be pretty...at first.

Originally posted by iamcamouflage
reply to post by Daytomann

 

Ok so what is meant by smaller govt and lower taxes. What programs should be cut? These are not questions just for politicians. I know where I stand on most of these issues. Why dont the TP supporters?

IMHO..Flat income tax with higher sales taxes and 50% cuts in all Governemt spending. INCLUDING drastic cuts in military. (this requires bringing ALL military back home and keeping us strong enough to make anyone pay dearly for an attack on us) If you take all the military spending in the world and look at it...we spend about 47% of the pie. I think we can find some very serious room to cut.

What is meant by smaller govt? Does this apply to just the federal govt, or state and local govts as well.

FED, STATE and LOCAL. Notice how many states are in budget trouble?

The only things I hear from TPM supporters is "we want smaller govt", but we want to keep medicare, medicaid, and SS(p.s. these 3 things represent 50% of your federal taxes). They want lower taxes, but where do we cut money from to lower them? Like I said Medicare, medicaid, and SS are 50%, defense spending is around 20% and the remaining 30% is every other govt department. That small 30% represents all education funding, transportation funding and every other alphabet department.

I think we need to make some hard decisions here. Drastic cuts (not do away with these programs but drastic cuts) I think they need serious oversight in regard to abuse. Because the abuse of Medicaid is sickening (my wife is a nurse who sees this daily, the storys of abuse are maddening) SS benefits need to be cut, the age should be raised to be at least 2 years higher than the average life expectancy of an American male. People need to have some accountability and PLAN for retirement, not count completely on the Gov mammary gland to support them in the golden years. I wont need SS...will you? If so, thats your problem, because it may not be there atthis rate.

As some have pointed out almost 50% of the population pay little to no taxes so I'm not sure how they can get much lower for that group.

Flat tax...for EVERYONE.

What about the 2% that goes towards education? Are they not happy with the highway system that brought them to their rallies? Are they not happy with the public park that allows them a location to hold their rallies? Are they not happy with the public libraries that provided Glenn Beck with his education?

We throw too much $$ at Edu...nothing ever changes. We need to worry about quality..as in teacher quality. Pay em a fair wage for the job they do that is appropriate for the time they work...if they dont perform fire them and get ones who get results.
Public parks? Capitol building steps are better for rallies! Libraries? LOL!!!

If you cannot form an opinion on these issues or cannot decide where to cut the money from for lower taxes, I'm not sure what to tell you.

You are not going to get very far convincing any person or politician that your ideas are well thought out.

Theres my ideas and opinions. They are broad but there they are in a nutshell
The black lady that was to my left at the last rally may have different ones.. The mom holding her infant in front of me might have slightly differnt ones still...while the dude in the suit and tie probably has his own ideas, as does the guy with the real tree camo hat who stood to my right.
Are you gettin it yet son?


But if you want specific answers to those "stances" listed a few posts above, youre barking up the wrong tree and probably wont get any satisfaction from a TPM. But I bet you any career politician would be happy to ramble some off for you.

[edit on 17-4-2010 by Daytomann]

Originally posted by Daytomann


LOL!!! Uh dude, I think youre over analysing TPM movement juuuust a little. Keep in mind its made up of Indys, Dems and Reps. Theres just too many variables in the details to get consensus on the "details" you are wanting. It really is as simple as wanting "smaller govt", "lower taxes", "fiscal responsibility", "accountability", etc. Its a movement to get some freakin honor and integrity back into the beltway. I dont understand whats so hard to understand about that.
Dont you understand that if a Democrat stood up for these BASICS, that they could easily get a backing from TPM?
Please, dont over analyze......All those "stances" you list are afterthoughts and better left to the career politicians to answer rather than us simple Tea Partyers.

If you want a broad representation of where an average TPM stands, think Libertarian..with a conservative lean.
Well thats about where I stand anyway, the guy standing next to me at a rally might be something completely opposite...oh well thats the TPM for ya.

[edit on 17-4-2010 by Daytomann]

[edit on 17-4-2010 by Daytomann]

Im still trying to grasp the tea party movement im seeing the left try to demonize them. Started calling them racists . Ive seen through this as attacks to marginalize the movement. Im noticing more and more the tea party is growing my biggest realization was today. when 2 black women i work with were leaving work today to attend the tea party downtown. Ive realized the tea party is people frustrated with the government. This is nothing more then people tired of politicians ignoring them.
The movement is continuing to grow because they do appear to be attracting independents and democrats. And they will support anyone who agrees with less government control and fiscal responsibility. They just recommended Walt Minnick (D-ID) as a candidate to support so they are not interested in party but ideals. Ill be watching this with great interest because this movement will burn itself out by november or continue to grow only time will tell.

reply to post by Flatfish


Yea yea so they did nothing durring Bush. You dont mind if they do now do you? Screw me once shame on you twice shame on me.

Originally posted by iamcamouflage

Ok so what is meant by smaller govt and lower taxes. What programs should be cut?

It is not about less programs, it is about less control.

What is meant by smaller govt? Does this apply to just the federal govt, or state and local govts as well.

Smaller fed bigger state...it is about that easy of an answer.

As some have pointed out almost 50% of the population pay little to no taxes so I'm not sure how they can get much lower for that group.

Well they were the focus of Obama throughout his campaign since they are all easy votes with promises that offer free whatever….

Do they want to cut defense spending? SS, Medicare, medicaid? What about the 2% that goes towards education? Are they not happy with the highway system that brought them to their rallies? Are they not happy with the public park that allows them a location to hold their rallies? Are they not happy with the public libraries that provided Glenn Beck with his education?

Were not all these things in place before the tea party felt the need to form? Fair taxes to support a sustainable infrastructure isn’t that what all we want, so do you see Obama heading in this direction? If I’m forced to pay 50% plus of my gross to support all this do you see it as fair?

Originally posted by Daytomann

What is meant by smaller govt? Does this apply to just the federal govt, or state and local govts as well.

FED, STATE and LOCAL. Notice how many states are in budget trouble?

Its the spending, size and scope thats just too big. I believe in a strong state Gov but a responsible one as well.
Case in point, My state is having to raid rainy day funds. They are cutting but not enough IMO. They have just spent too much and they dont seem to want to stop, no matter which party is in charge. Thats an issue TPM wants to take up in our state.

Also, why does my city see fit to spend 12 million $$ on a crystal bridge, that should not be a priority on a recession, yet lay off police and firemen?

Wheres the common sense?



[edit on 17-4-2010 by Daytomann]

I think we need to make some hard decisions here. Drastic cuts (not do away with these programs but drastic cuts) I think they need serious oversight in regard to abuse.

So more local level programs that are custom designed to the area's need? And not some general fed program full of waste.... how's that for a start?

SS benefits need to be cut, the age should be raised to be at least 2 years higher than the average life expectancy of an American male. People need to have some accountability and PLAN for retirement, not count completely on the Gov mammary gland to support them in the golden years. I wont need SS...will you? If so, thats your problem, because it may not be there atthis rate.

I disagree here since I pay into the program outside of taxes, so I should get what I paid for...don't you think? Hey, how about paying me back with 7% interest all that I paid into it for 40 plus years by the time I retire. What am I paying for anyways?

Flat tax...for EVERYONE.

I agree....

We throw too much $$ at Edu...nothing ever changes. We need to worry about quality..as in teacher quality. Pay em a fair wage for the job they do that is appropriate for the time they work...if they dont perform fire them and get ones who get results.
Public parks? Capitol building steps are better for rallies! Libraries? LOL!!!

Let state taxes handle this..... put more of the money actually in the schools and teachers.




The bottom line is if we had a small foot print fed government and a larger state government then people can decide where they want to live and support. If I don’t want socialized system then I can choose to not live in a socialized state..It’s about choice, and also about fair taxes.

Originally posted by mike_trivisonno
We are tired of the Federal Government systematically seizing power from individuals and from the States of the Union and centralizing that usurped power into the hands of few political elites and their sycophants.

We fought that war already. Your side lost. In 1865.

The Tea Party movement does not stem from a hatred of the President, although that might exist, It stems from the realization that the American people are no longer in control. They maybe never were, but they had the illusion that they were. They are alarmed that the country is on a course apparently set for its destruction. Obama is apparently deliberately steering us onto the rocks. The wars are wrecking our economy and the justification for the wars is starting to wear thin. I mean its been nine years already. We have never never had a war this long. The real reasons for the wars and the strangle hold grip that the corporate interests have on our government is starting to become apparent to more and more people.
Another factor is Obama's leadership and the two faced approach to the economy. On the one hand we have a national debt that is almost too high for us to pay interest to the Fed banking cabal, any more might sink us and government is threatening to raise taxes and cut services, while on the other hand federal govt spending is going through the roof, with billions in foreign aid, billion dollar embassies, bailout handouts to the big banks and government takeover of parts of the ecoomy.The stimulus bills have proved to be nothing but political payoffs. And of course the "endless" war costs a lot. The federal govt assumes the people are totally blind and stupid.
Since democracy is our thing and a rally has long been touted as a fun way to participate, many people are saying - Well I'd better take a stand - without really being totally awake to how bad the situation really is. If they really understood the situation, they would be sick and unable to do much. Just the fact that they want to participate means that they are pretty much in the dark. They do acknowledge their lack of power in insisting that they are angry in a peaceful non-violent way. They know that they don't want to provoke the government into gunning them down. They think that numbers might be noticed by the more deeply asleep citizens, although the mainstream (ie government/fascist propaganda) media is pretty successfully marginalizing them.
About hating the president, it might be interesting if someone were to take a poll of how many people really hate him. It could actually easily be skewered by the wording. But worded in a direct way, Just Do you think you hate the president? might be surprising. Most polls just want to know between strongly approve or strongly disapprove but nobody really asks about hate
Hating a Black president might make one a racist. But he got elected by a majority. So they didn't hate him when they elected him. They only hated him when he set about destroying the country.
I am not saying that I hate the president. Hate is a rather strong word. I did take it personally that after I voted for him and contributed what little money I had for his campaign that he would turn out to be a puppet of the bad guys. I even got suckered into sending $100 for the "transition government" so he wouldn't have to accept money from corporate interests. That was a con.
Someone might be fearful in this age of hyper wired dhs that is looking for extremists to round up to "defend America from "terrorists" ", to admit to hating the president. That consideration might skewer answers on a poll.
911 was an inside job. Research "thermite." So obviously the war on terror is bogus, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are bogus. The idea that Obama is trying to do anything less than totally destroy the economy and the country is bogus. That Obama has the country by the throat and is shaking it hard, that's hard to like.
One good thing that came of this though, is that I woke up. I mean I always believed that Kennedy was killed by the CIA, but about 911, that was a little too far for me. I didn't start doubting until after watching Bev Harris' Hacking Democracy the night of the election. I was really upset about that, but Obama won anyway somehow, so I was happy. Then I started wondering about JFK because Nov 22 was coming up. I thought I would watch the JFK DVD but nobody had it, so I looked on the internet. Wow, Then I ran into a youtube clip about the Bush-JFK connection. Parts of it were in cartoon format, but it made sense. It was a surprise to me that Bush Sr, himself, killed JFK. Then I ran into fema camps and fema coffins and fema graves and fema shackel cars and window-less buses. Then I heard things about Baxter bird flu, and how the ferrets died. I heard on ATS about Jonestown, and saw Waco, the BIG LIE. There was a blog from 1997 about reinvestigating the Murrah Building bombing, and then I hit that Modesto Fox News Richard Gage clip on nano-thermite. The world is not the same place anymore. I lost 20 lb just from constant worry, then settled down. So the government wants to depopulate us, there's not much we can do about it. Life goes on. The swine flu vaccine didn't kill us, but it has really dirty stuff in it. Nobody really knows what's in it except the vaccine makers and the govt illegal bio-weapons labs. But viruses have been a hoax from the beginning. Read Whale.to. Stuff is out there on the internet. I thought I had been surfing the internet but I never saw any of it. What does it take to wake a person up? I never knew how bad vaccines were until researching swine flu. Having a president as bad as Obama wakes us up to the mess the country is in, being controlled by ptbs who have this Democrat/Republican left/right pardigm hoax going. The same thing applies to the Tea Parties. They are waking themselves up. More power to them. God bless 'em
You notice on this thread that they are going at it, calling the tea parties gold-digging racist Republicans, but they don't want to argue with me. Wonder why that is?


[edit on 17-4-2010 by m khan]

Originally posted by OldDragger


HINT: Get big business under control, and you will have big government under control.

I believe this is the case as well

I think many folks have the equation completely backwards

The government did not start functioning in this manner until the corporation
became the norm.

I feel that TTPM is completely futile because the members hold business upon a quasi religious pedestal, the government is bought and sold VIA THE CORPORATION, not the other way around. The miscalculation is horrendous IMO -

IF TTPM did have the same vitriol against the Multi Nationals I might listen, as is, considering the lack of attention, it makes the whole thing sterile from birth, pointless effort, etc.


Star OD

Face it, the 'Tea Party' is Modern Day lobyist, who grab the ends of the rope with the attached bundles of freshly minted currencies (around 3 trillion $$).

Due to the fascination with Social Networking: Facebook, Twitter, etc; they've filled the niche of complaining that turns out to be very profitable.

They go to their little 'parties', make connections, then provide the "voice" for the voiceless. And, as an added feature, they get reimbursed, because that's the American Way.


[edit on 4/17/2010 by passingthought]

reply to post by OldDragger


Well I was at the one in San Diego with my Asian gf who's idea it was to go, I saw several other asians and more than a few African Americans, the only "right wing extremists" I saw included a single man with a rather nasty sign about Obama that quickly got ousted as a plant, once people began following him with plant signs he quickly turned and his true colors came flowing out. I saw a few other plants including a self titled "anarchist" who I think was mentally retarded as his attempts at rousing us into a fight were laughably ignored. If you ever took the time to go and meet these people your tune would change as these are gentle average Americans.

As to the Op's questions, it's really a mish mash of opinions for a lot of the people out there, but mainly they oppose big government, they have always opposed big government and now we got Obama in there that doesn't seem to even care about the democratic process or bipartisanship, he has an agenda and he don't care. Can you understand that there are people in this country that think socialism and big government is a slap in the face to the millions of people who have died because they believed in small government and and our capitalist democracy. And don't even try to deny that socialism isn't taking over. And with these socialist programs that he has set in motion and has laid plans out for he has effectively quadrupled our debt, it has taken this countries entire history to reach it's current debt and only 1 year of Obama to quadruple it. Your eyes are wide shut.

[edit on 17-4-2010 by Sheeper]

reply to post by passingthought


Yeah......ok.
Wow, you've got to be od'ing on the kool-aid about now.

Originally posted by Flatfish
This Tea Party movement seems very confusing, contradicting to say the least. I'm having trouble grasping just what it is that the Tea Party wants and why they chose now to demonstrate for it.

Fox News and friends mean for it to be this way. It's been infiltrated and run down the toilet to become 'fringe'.

They seem to be protesting the Obama administration claiming that he is raising their taxes when in fact taxes have been lowered for 95% of americans. Even Geraldo Rivera said the same thing this morning on Fox News.

Yes, but to be fair, they also protest Income Tax, and a slew of increasing taxation through other means. (Capitol Gains, Sales, Etc.)

2.) They seem to be protesting the new Obama Health Care Reform bill claiming that it violates the U.S. Constitution to force anyone to purchase medical insurance while polls indicate that 47% of their membership or movement supports both Medicare and Social Security. If Medicare isn't a federal mandate to purchase medical insurance through the government then I don't know what is. Why aren't they protesting Medicare for the same reasons? Are they saying that if the Health Care Reform bill was structured to provide single payer Medicare for all, then it would be constitutional?

Yes, it seems odd to me too.

3.) They seem to be protesting the Obama administration claiming that his policies are steering the nation down the path to irreconcilable debt when in fact, this current recession began in 2007 under the Bush administration. Even the CBO projected an 8 trillion dollar national debt at the end of the Bush term.

Ummmm, Spending since Bush has increased to well beyond those numbers even projected under Bush. See also; Bailouts

It seems awfully apparent to me that the common denominator in their protest is Barack Obama and the democratic leadership. I really don't think that it matters what the Obama administration does or doesn't do, these people will protest it just because of the fact that it is associated with Obama, whether it makes sense or not. This, I'm sorry to say, becomes more evident day by day

Yep. Many are in fear of "Socialism", not realizing Obama is a Corporatist. They also don't like "Darkies" either...well....some of them...not all.

Where was the Tea Party movement when the Bush administration lowered taxes on the nation's wealthiest individuals, twice, during a time of war? For that matter, where were they when Bush lied us into the Iraq war and devoted enormous resources to fighting it? Where was the movement when Bush enacted the big pharma bill, totally unpaid for? Where was the movement when the Bush administration deregulated wall street allowing the nations biggest banks to gamble with taxpayer money?

The original "Tea Party" movement was created around 2006-2007 in RESPONSE to Bush. It was started by Ron Paul activists along with Grassroots people. It has since been hijacked by Neocons who are hiding under the "Libertarian" tent. Many supporters are just embarrassed ex Bush supporters who had nowhere else to run to that "made sense". Others are true Libertarians that feel they have something to cling onto, but fail to realize the "Ron Paul Spirit" got sucked out of the whole Movement and went down the drain.

It would seem to me that seeing how they missed the bus when the nation was being robbed

Like I said, the VERSION of the Tea Party you see now are the true Johnny Come Lately folks. They were Right Wingers, supporters of Bush, John Birchers, Dominionists, Zionists, Imperialists, War Mongers. They had NO interest in "Libertarian ideals until Fox and Friends made it "cool".

They didn't miss the bus. They hijacked the bus when it was too late.

Ron Paul's original version was the real TEA PARTY. This concoction is smoke and mirrors.

Originally posted by OldDragger

Enough!
enough of the fiction that the "tea party" in not partisan.
enough of the fiction it's not extreme right wing.
enough that it's a meaningful movement.
It was stillborn.
It's about opposing Obama.
The problem is not so much BIG GOVERNMENT, ITS BIG BUSINESS!
Big business that dictates policy to government, that pays millions every day in lobbiest bribes.
You "tea Partiers' are tools of corporations that care nothing about Constitutional restraints, freedom or even this Nation itself!
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtains! The Wall Street bankers, the stock traders, the money maniuplators that came out of this financial mess richer than ever!
Noooo! Fall for the free market is patriotic lie, hate Obama, blame liberals, stay divided propaganda crowd
BS that you swallow from the Republicans, THE VERY CROWD THAT STOLE YOUR MONEY AND IS RICHER NOW THAN EVER!
HINT: Get big business under control, and you will have big government under control.

Applause!

I made the comment earlier that I'd always thought the tea-partiers were uneducated and maybe not the sharpest knives in the draw.

Everything you've said here, are the reasons that led me to that conclusion.

Why? Because every thing you've said is the truth. I just figured all the people who jumped on the bandwagon were too naive/brainwashed (stupid) to know it.

They jumped on the bandwagon because they don't want to be taxed anymore, and they don't like government linked health care.

All these other things....the TRUE agendas?.........they are clueless.

They don't really realize this movement has absolutely NOTHING to offer them in their every day lives, but in the long run will only work against them.

Originally posted by Flatfish

3.) They seem to be protesting the Obama administration claiming that his policies are steering the nation down the path to irreconcilable debt when in fact, this current recession began in 2007 under the Bush administration. Even the CBO projected an 8 trillion dollar national debt at the end of the Bush term.

This is completely true.

If Obama had come into office and said to the American people "You know, my predecessor has left the country with an enormous debt. We are going to have to cut spending across the board to get us back on track." I would have some respect for the man.

Nope! He's just like Bush. Keeps spending in Iraq and Afghanistan. Can't think up enough programs and new regulations to spend money on fast enough. I guarantee this health care debacle is going to cost billions, if not trillions, more than they said it would. This IS the government we are talking about here.

As for the Tea Party, I agree with some of their principles. Small government and limited government involvement in the people's lives. Keep taxes as low as possible. Re-affirm states rights over that massive cluster**** that is the federal government.