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Tea Party, Where's The Beef?

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posted on Apr, 16 2010 @ 11:11 AM
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This Tea Party movement seems very confusing, contradicting to say the least. I'm having trouble grasping just what it is that the Tea Party wants and why they chose now to demonstrate for it.

1.) They seem to be protesting the Obama administration claiming that he is raising their taxes when in fact taxes have been lowered for 95% of americans. Even Geraldo Rivera said the same thing this morning on Fox News.

2.) They seem to be protesting the new Obama Health Care Reform bill claiming that it violates the U.S. Constitution to force anyone to purchase medical insurance while polls indicate that 47% of their membership or movement supports both Medicare and Social Security. If Medicare isn't a federal mandate to purchase medical insurance through the government then I don't know what is. Why aren't they protesting Medicare for the same reasons? Are they saying that if the Health Care Reform bill was structured to provide single payer Medicare for all, then it would be constitutional?

3.) They seem to be protesting the Obama administration claiming that his policies are steering the nation down the path to irreconcilable debt when in fact, this current recession began in 2007 under the Bush administration. Even the CBO projected an 8 trillion dollar national debt at the end of the Bush term.

It seems awfully apparent to me that the common denominator in their protest is Barack Obama and the democratic leadership. I really don't think that it matters what the Obama administration does or doesn't do, these people will protest it just because of the fact that it is associated with Obama, whether it makes sense or not. This, I'm sorry to say, becomes more evident day by day.

To utilize an old adage, this movement seems to be "A Day Late & A Dollar Short." The people responsible for stealing America's wealth are not being held to account and not one word of protest from the Tea Party regarding that fact.

Where was the Tea Party movement when the Bush administration lowered taxes on the nation's wealthiest individuals, twice, during a time of war? For that matter, where were they when Bush lied us into the Iraq war and devoted enormous resources to fighting it? Where was the movement when Bush enacted the big pharma bill, totally unpaid for? Where was the movement when the Bush administration deregulated wall street allowing the nations biggest banks to gamble with taxpayer money?

It would seem to me that seeing how they missed the bus when the nation was being robbed, they would now be protesting for "Accountability." You would think that they would be demanding the prosecution of all those that are responsible for bankrupting America.

It's like protesting a bank for borrowing money to make it's depositors whole after being cleaned out in a robbery, instead of protesting the fact that no one is going after the robber himself.

I can understand the delayed reaction to being robbed but I'm having a problem understanding why they are protesting the people who are trying to repair the mess dumped in their laps as opposed to demanding that we have accountability of those who actually robbed us.

Don't get me wrong, I understand their anger, although it just seems to be misguided. I believe that it is a natural response to be angered when you get robbed, but it's important that we don't let the anger blind us with respect to identifying the real thief.


This is my first thread and it is not meant to ruffle any feathers so if I have inadvertently done so, I apologize in advance. I was hoping that maybe some of you Tea Party people out there can explain for me just what your platform is and what the reasoning is behind it.




posted on Apr, 16 2010 @ 11:24 AM
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If you are having trouble grasping the stand of citizens who identify with the Tea Party, then you are not that bright.

We are tired of the Federal Government systematically seizing power from individuals and from the States of the Union and centralizing that usurped power into the hands of few political elites and their sycophants.

The election of an obvious anti-American, marxist to the Oval Office was the tipping point for many citizens. That is why the movement has grown so quickly. Because the enemies of freedom and the destroyers of The Constitution have stepped up their game.

Or would you prefer we just wait forever and never act? Obama was a catalyst because of his incredible hatred of America. At least the other criminals at least pretended to love this country.

We're not buying the snake oil Washington, DC is selling.



posted on Apr, 16 2010 @ 11:46 AM
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reply to post by mike_trivisonno
 


Well, I was hoping you would be more specific about what it is that you stand for. Your statement seems to affirm what I have already pointed out which is, that it seems as though the Tea Party movement primarily stems from a hatred for the president.

Just for the record, I would not prefer that you wait forever to act. I would however prefer that you demand accountability for those who broke the system as opposed to spewing inflammatory rhetoric about the repairman.



posted on Apr, 16 2010 @ 12:03 PM
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Just follow the money and you will see exactly what is going on.

Investigate the role of Freedomworks, who the founder is, and what he is also entangled with

Also research Koch Industries...

The Tea Party is a disingenious corporate movement that is pretending to be "we the people"...and nothing could be further from the truth...unless We The People have suddenly become little more than corporate lobbiests.


Follow the money.



posted on Apr, 16 2010 @ 12:12 PM
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reply to post by mike_trivisonno
 


The election of an obvious anti-American, marxist to the Oval Office was the tipping point for many citizens. That is why the movement has grown so quickly. Because the enemies of freedom and the destroyers of The Constitution have stepped up their game.

Or would you prefer we just wait forever and never act? Obama was a catalyst because of his incredible hatred of America. At least the other criminals at least pretended to love this country.


So, the Tea Party, as i stated in another thread, is a loosley affiliated group of extreme right wingers that are freaked out because we have elected a Democrat, a President they don't approve of!
Yawn.



posted on Apr, 16 2010 @ 12:14 PM
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reply to post by SaturnFX
 


I couldn't agree more and I am well aware of just who the principle financial supporters of the Tea Party movement are.

Problem is, I think that the Tea Party movement is blind to the fact that the very people funding their movement are the same people spending millions to lobby congress against their own interest.

You're absolutely right though, the money trail almost always leads to the culprit.



posted on Apr, 16 2010 @ 12:21 PM
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There are no secrets that will remain hidden, like a candle in darkness, the truth is coming out. We no longer have a roof, so now we can see the moon.
My understanding of the tea party movement is that the people who have been asleep, not caring about what their elected officials are doing, are now waking up. We see what all is going on, who all is doing what. More and more we are seeing where those who are elected are not voting with the voice of those who they represent, rather following the special interests, and the public is slowly growing more and more in discontent. The Tea Party has struck a never and keeps striking those nerves with those who are elected, as the federal government must now deal with the very people who put them into office.
It may be a lull, but the storm is coming and will start to gain strength later on in the year, especially with the elections that are coming up. The real testament to what the public wants will happen in November when the question of if the public agree with the current policies will be decided by who is put into office. If the public agrees with such, then the incumbents who are in office or those who agree with them, will end up back in office, if not, then there will be a change in the congress and the president will be a lame duck.



posted on Apr, 16 2010 @ 12:55 PM
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reply to post by mike_trivisonno
 


Hi Mike

Well, I took a bit of offense at you suggesting someone isn't bright when they question something...rarely do I see such comments on ATS, so I took the time to investigate who you are by your previous posts

I noted only 2 main themes. your absolute hatred of anything left of far right, calling everything a communist or communism.

I also noted a absolute reactionary hatred of equal measure towards anything muslim.

After about 15 minutes of me going from thread to thread you posted on, I concluded you have never offered any source material, never offered any thoughts to ponder on, just the two mindsets of irrational hatred of islam and the left.

I then noticed you some how, at this point in time, have a negative number of post points on ATS...I feel my 20k points are low, but hey...I often dont try...how the hell do you get negative points?

Anyhow, After long and careful deliberation, I have concluded that you have yet to offer anything to ATS, be it a new perspective, a source based introduction of thinking, or anything of value to progress a conversation. Congratulations...after a year online, you have made the 4th person on my ignore list...knowing full well that you will more than likely never add anything of value to either ATS or indeed the human race.

My advice to you, which will undoubtedly go ignored, would be the following:
Do not question the intellect of anyone whom asks a question as a line of defense...it makes you immediately suspect of the one unable to have articulate thinking to begin with and makes people whom enjoy progressive conversations immediately flag your comment as ignorant.

Until you get a few thousand points behind you, you really dont want to draw too much attention to your line of thinking...if you cant even make a positive contribution to ATS, then why would you in specific question other peoples intellect.

Anyhow, have a good day, and good rest of your life.



posted on Apr, 16 2010 @ 01:01 PM
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tea : taxed enough already.

1. dont know where you got your info, but anyone with half a brain can check and see that the current administration and congress have increased the taxes on everyone who earns a living. the facts support no other conculsion.

2. medicare and social security are not requirments that force someone to purchase something. while I can argue that SS and medicare are not something the fed. government has the authority to mandate taxes for, Obamacare goes beyond that to force citizens to buy a product they may not want, need, or care to buy under the provisions set forth by the imperial government. We will be paying taxes for this new entitlement program for 4 years, without recieving any benifits. The monies collected will not be earmarked solely for the program but will instead go into the general fund. Thus showing a decrease in the overall deficeit, until the time the program goes into effect. At that point we will find ourselves with a deficiet of 1 trillion dollars per year for the next 10 years.

3. seems to me that you stated a good arguement against the current spending spree. if your 8 trillion dollars in debt it makes no sense to add an additional 1 trillion a year to that debt. The CBO, the fed, and hundreds of economist have repeatedly said that this type of spending is unsustainable. ON an aside here, I have to state that I do not define cutting taxes as not increasing spending as much as I was anticipating.
Had this been a bush era takeover of our healthcare, with the large deficiets that go with it, you would still see the tea party people protesting it.

half of America thinks that they are taxed fairly, of course almost half (47%) of americans dont pay taxes so I can understand that stat.

I have worked all my life, I will never see even 50% of the monies I have paid into SS and medicare. Had I been allowed to take that money and invest it in government bonds I could retire right now with over a million dollars and no need for the government to pay for anything. I dont mind paying taxes, I benifit from some of the things they go for, but to people like you it is never enough.

Finally, President Obama's stance on the role of government in the lives of US citizens, cap and trade, Immigration, and fiscal policy, all point this country toward Socialism, and far afield of the limited republic that the founders envisioned. combined with the bailouts, and takeover of private businesses his milqtoast stance on Iran, his overt disdain for Israel and her security, his politicallly correct apologism toward radical Islam, the very people he surrounds himself with and appoints to government offices,all these have finally galvanized the tax payers, and freemen of this country. The democrats are on a course to destroy this country in the name of social justice, and their hunger for power. They do not have the welfare of this country as a whole as their goal, only the welfare and power they can gain for their side.

POLLS show that the tea party movement is mostly made up of college educated, working, taxpaying, people over the age of 45, The very demographic that has been the backbone of this country. Times they are a changing. Will the changes be for the better? Not if President Obama and the democrats have their way.



posted on Apr, 16 2010 @ 01:03 PM
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Originally posted by mike_trivisonno
If you are having trouble grasping the stand of citizens who identify with the Tea Party, then you are not that bright.

...snip...

The election of an obvious anti-American, marxist to the Oval Office


So basically in one breath you say Obama is "marxist" and that people who don't agree are not that bright?

Sheesh...



posted on Apr, 16 2010 @ 01:06 PM
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Originally posted by Phedreus
POLLS show that the tea party movement is mostly made up of college educated, working, taxpaying, people over the age of 45


I am squarely in this category and yest I think that 99% percent of the tea party folks are dimwits.

Tea Party is just a knee-jerk reaction of a simpleton who isn't used to seeing a black face in the Oval Office. I betcha very same people were 100% mum when Dubya was trampling the Constitution.



posted on Apr, 16 2010 @ 01:23 PM
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reply to post by Flatfish
 


Ahhh, how I envy this thread of yours.
I agree to much of what you are saying, and have asked myself the same question.
Those who oppose the HCR Bill say it is socialized and leading us towards a socialist country, when a type of socialism already exists, to which those of the Tea Party movement are very oblivious towards.
Such as our Public Education system, it is free, and yes it is noted that your taxes pay for it, but it still is free and a type of socialist root already.
I am not saying that socialism should be everywhere, but a superpower's economy has to have some blend of the other world, in which our capitalist government has to have some almost socialist element which is our public education system and medicare which you receive once your over the age of 65.


Both of these are things that are already socialist in the way they see the HCR Bill, but they simply ignore and how unaware they may be.

It's more of a rant and whine to the extreme movement if you ask me.



posted on Apr, 16 2010 @ 01:25 PM
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Originally posted by mike_trivisonno
If you are having trouble grasping the stand of citizens who identify with the Tea Party, then you are not that bright.


Hi Mike

Being "not very bright", can you please state a few examples for me so I can better understand and appreciate your obviously superior intellectual grasp.


We are tired of the Federal Government systematically seizing power from individuals and from the States of the Union and centralizing that usurped power into the hands of few political elites and their sycophants.

What are the bill numbers/congressional or presidential acts which have accomplished this? As hard as my primitive little brain works, I cannot seem to recall any changes to our political infrastructure which accomplishes this


The election of an obvious anti-American, marxist to the Oval Office was the tipping point for many citizens. That is why the movement has grown so quickly. Because the enemies of freedom and the destroyers of The Constitution have stepped up their game.

Or would you prefer we just wait forever and never act? Obama was a catalyst because of his incredible hatred of America. At least the other criminals at least pretended to love this country.


I could really use some clarification on this one. What's our president done to demonstrate that he's anti-America or Marxist? What would he have to do to prove that he's not? Where has this "incredible hatred" for our country been proven?


Let's face it Mike. You and the other "right-wingers" are all upset because your boys got their pee-pee's spanked by a black man. Latent racism. Plain and simple. Face it - there's a black man in office now. He CAN make some decisions and NO he won't be punishing you for the past. It will all soon be over and you can go back to your chest-beating, woman-slapping, child-sexing ways again soon enough.



posted on Apr, 16 2010 @ 01:27 PM
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The repub supporters are PROS at spreading propaganda and misinformation with their main ammunition being fear. All the repub lies that float around can ALWAYS be proven total nonsense by 5 minutes worth of researching the actual truth of the topic. They will try any attempt to tarnish a Democrat by ANY means necessary. Repub supporters consist of:

1) the incredibly WEALTHY whom would fight tooth and nail against paying a MINUSCULE amount more in taxes (the equivalent of a nickel more a month for a common citizens wealth) for the benefit of improving the hardest working middle class and lower class folks. They hate the middle class and viciously despise the lower class.

2) the FAITH card. To receive the votes of the non-wealthy, they play the Christian faith card. These supporters are the most foolish as NOTHING that the repubs actually do favor any christ-like intentions whatsoever. They use this card for the foolish religious folks whom are mostly middle and lower classes. WORKS LIKE A CHARM!



posted on Apr, 16 2010 @ 01:36 PM
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reply to post by Phedreus
 


look, the facts do not support your assertion that taxes have been raised on everyone who earns a living. Do you have any source that supports this assertion?

I was forced into early retirement 5 yrs. ago at the age of 48. I paid my S.S. and Medicare taxes for 33 yrs. prior to retirement from the industry. I won't qualify for Medicare until I reach the age of 65 which I think means that I was taxed for a benefit for 33 yrs. that I won't receive for yet another 12 yrs. Sounds a lot like what you are calling unconstitutional in the new health care reform bill.

If you think that you would have a million dollars today generated from investing your half of the S.S. tax, 3.62% last I checked (employer matches employee contribution,) plus your medicare tax of 1.45% then you either had one hell of a income all your life or you generated one hell of a return on your investment, not to mention you would have had to have avoided the market crash. In my opinion, you may need another "think."

The rest of your response sounds like opinions that were spoon fed to you by the likes of Beck, Limbaugh, Dobbs, Hannity, and even Bachman. The whole fear campaign in full bloom and I think that arguing those points with someone who is convinced that they are true is like banging your head against the wall, so I won't.



posted on Apr, 16 2010 @ 01:45 PM
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I will be back after work to get more into this, but in the mean time Flatfish can you answer the following:


Originally posted by Flatfish
1.) They seem to be protesting the Obama administration claiming that he is raising their taxes when in fact taxes have been lowered for 95% of americans. Even Geraldo Rivera said the same thing this morning on Fox News.


You have spoken here in two different tenses...'he is raising' with the implication of future taxes that are inevitable when you look at the long-term policies being enacted, that have been in place, and our Federal fiscal standing. Taxes will have to be raised.

Then you make claim that 'when in fact taxes have been lowered for 95% of Americans.' Now, I am not a proof hound, but care to show that proof? Saying Geraldo Rivera said it isn't that convincing.



2.) They seem to be protesting the new Obama Health Care Reform... If Medicare isn't a federal mandate to purchase medical insurance through the government then I don't know what is. Why aren't they protesting Medicare for the same reasons? Are they saying that if the Health Care Reform bill was structured to provide single payer Medicare for all, then it would be constitutional?
Note: I shortened your quote for space purposes

Medicare is not Federally mandated that a person must obtain it. It is a socially funded program that is voluntary (not the cost, but the inclusion of the service). So Medicare is not a federal mandate to purchase medical insurance through the government. It is merely a government subsidized program.



3.) They seem to be protesting the Obama administration claiming that his policies are steering the nation down the path to irreconcilable debt when in fact, this current recession began in 2007 under the Bush administration. Even the CBO projected an 8 trillion dollar national debt at the end of the Bush term.


This is the one that I can agree with to an extent. While the recession began in 2007, the policies that led to the near collapse of our Financial system and the housing bubble occurred much longer ago and were perpetuated in part by mostly Barney Frank (Fannie and Freddie). You are correct in your projected, but what was the actual at the end of President Bush's term? How fast has the projection grown since then (only a year later)? How fast is our obligation as citizen's been growing in the past 10 years? 5 years? 1 year?

-------

Okay, now those questions are out of the way, Flat----Great first post. You are doing what many here lack and that is to ask questions and gain information and knowledge. It is commendable and refreshing to see.

Overall, may I suggest when you make a claim, back it up with some evidence or a link, people here will chew you apart for it and best to just include the source.

I hope to be back here to further engage in your conversation.



posted on Apr, 16 2010 @ 01:47 PM
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Originally posted by mike_trivisonno

The election of an obvious anti-American, marxist to the Oval Office was the tipping point for many citizens. That is why the movement has grown so quickly. Because the enemies of freedom and the destroyers of The Constitution have stepped up their game.

Or would you prefer we just wait forever and never act? Obama was a catalyst because of his incredible hatred of America. At least the other criminals at least pretended to love this country.



Don't you people realize by now that this is all in your head?

Obama obviously isn't a Marxist. Name a single thing he has done since taking office that is Communist. Name one thing.

There is no movement to destroy freedom, there is no movement to trample the Constitution (Bush did a better job of it than Obama is doing, after all). There is no deep-seeded hatred for America in this administration.

It's seriously all in your head. I don't know if it's paranoia, schizophrenia, or downright delusion, but you should probably either self-evaluate, or have a medical professional do it for you. I don't know if these thoughts are your own, or if they are courtesy of Fox News ala Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity. What I do know is that it's high time for you and the rest of the vitriolic masses to stop with the partisan insanity, and think for yourselves for a change.



EDIT to add: I actually strongly supported the Tea Party movement (Ron Paul's tea party movement) back when it first started. Unfortunately, it has since been hijacked by the GOP and the far right, and that has destroyed any positive momentum the movement had gained in its early days.

There are still branches of the Tea Party that have the original goals in mind, and are not simply reactionary groups opposed to the president. Those groups should change their name fast, and start a new grassroots movement that will once again look after the interests of the middle class.

Sadly, such a movement will likely again be infiltrated by the far right, in order to discredit it and destroy any chance the middle class has of gaining ground in this country. It is a sad day in this country when people who actually want to enact positive change are being overshadowed by bigoted xenophobic nutcases and corporate interests.



[edit on 16-4-2010 by drwizardphd]



posted on Apr, 16 2010 @ 02:45 PM
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reply to post by buddhasystem
 


I find that people that cannot comeup with a reasoned arguement go straight for the race card, or other pc device.

We are not dimwits, we have made the choice to be educated, work hard, and look to ourselves for what we want in life rather than require others to give it to us. We are free men who deal with other free men as equals with honor and pride in our selfworth. we are those out there who pay our mortgages, payoff our debts, work, raise our families, pay our taxes, and stive to live as good honorable citizens of the greatest country on earth. without out us there is no host for the parasites that are trying to take over our country. The fact that I have educated myself, that my abilities and work are better than others, that other reasoned hard working free men will hire me because of my work ethics and abilities and pay me more than they would others is not something i am ashamed of. The fact that I am better able to provide for myself and my family does not give you the right to require more from me in taxes than you would of anyone else.



posted on Apr, 16 2010 @ 02:54 PM
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reply to post by Flatfish
 


taking an average outlay for ss and medicare taxes, over 40 yrs of working, at an averaged income above 100,000 a yr. put into a savings plan over that period of time with a compound return of only 3% would make me one very well off retired citizen. I worked hard, I made good decisions in my life and was rewarded. figuring state, local, federal, ss, and medicare taxes, along with fees, registrations, and various taxes on cable, cellphone, gas, ect, ect,, ect, almost 55% of my gross income goes to the government. I say say thats more than enough and I for one will fight to see that they do not get one penny more.



posted on Apr, 16 2010 @ 03:41 PM
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Let's face it Mike. You and the other "right-wingers" are all upset because your boys got their pee-pee's spanked by a black man. Latent racism. Plain and simple. Face it - there's a black man in office now. He CAN make some decisions and NO he won't be punishing you for the past. It will all soon be over and you can go back to your chest-beating, woman-slapping, child-sexing ways again soon enough.
reply to post by TXRabbit
 

I have never been more freakin offended in my whole life. When for cryin out loud are you guys going to give up the race card? I'm not saying that there aren't racist in ever state in every country in the world because there is, but how can you say those horrible things about a group of people you don't know, people like me that just want the government to stop spending and get out of every single thing in our lives? Perhaps you could go to a rally and find out for yourself who these people are, instead of listening to the Obama msm, because you are way out of line.



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