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Government Can Force Us to Buy General Motors Products?

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posted on Mar, 29 2010 @ 07:28 PM
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Originally posted by endisnighe
reply to post by captaintyinknots
 


I see someone is REALLY losing this debate and is getting really angry.

Already pulled the race card, accused someone of having the same IQ as them.

Said the thread has to be closed.

What debate techniques are these?

Health Insurance=Product

Mandate=Forced

Future possibility=more forced purchases of products.

Hopefully laying it out as a SIMPLE math formula will help.


Tell me one point that has caused me to 'lose" this argument?

Show me where I am getting mad.

Youre right, i am frustarated with the sheer paranoia spewed forth here. Frustration is not anger.

When the title stated this as fact, yes, the thread should have been changed. It was a lie of a title. The OP even adjusted it based on such. Nice try.

I pulled no race card. I addressed a person that openly admitted they were here because of their hate for obama. Nice try again.

I didnt accuse anyone of anything. I simply stated that lying and playing it off as something someone else said is a sign of a low IQ. Which it is. Nice try #3.

Health insurance is a service, not a product. Nice try #4.

Mandate does = force. Show me where I stated otherwise. Nice try #5.

Future possibilities? Well, its a future possibility that we will all grow nine arms and 3 heads. Does that make it likely? Should I make a thread about that? Nice try #6.

Hopefully pointing out your ignorance will help you to actually contribute to a thread, not just attack the posters.




posted on Mar, 29 2010 @ 07:30 PM
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Originally posted by lilwolf
reply to post by captaintyinknots
 



the op is hypothetical... and clrearly you never specified what part you did not like...

and my statements against the obamam are accrate.

www.cnn.com...

voices.washingtonpost.com...

now here is a good question for you and you need to think about it for awhile before you ramble on..

Has obama violated the seperation of powers?


Actually, i did. I pointed out that it is nothing but fear-mongering.

But hey, i noticed you are completely abandoning your previous argument. Why is that?



posted on Mar, 29 2010 @ 07:31 PM
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Originally posted by muzzleflash
To the blind people shouting the government cannot do whatever, get real!

The government CAN tell you to Jump in the Furnace and burn....

They have before...

You're like the guys who told the Wright Brothers they could not fly, it is impossible! Except you are telling them that in 1910...a bit late...


[edit on 29-3-2010 by muzzleflash]


Yes, because buying material possessions and the holocaust are even remotely related.


Or that mandating what car you can buy is the same thing as inventing something.

Just wow



posted on Mar, 29 2010 @ 07:34 PM
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Originally posted by Light of Night
I'm going to jump in now.

When the government writes and passes a law that says you have to purchase this product or we will either tax you for not purchasing it, or throw you in jail for not paying the tax, then the government can tell you to do what ever you want.

Don't think it will come to the government telling you to buy a GM product? The government already owns 60% interest in GM so what is stopping them from pulling the same thing? You can buy that Honda or Ford, but upon doing so you have to pay a 50% extra tax.

Want to take out a school loan? Okay that's fine but you have to get a federal loan because you have to pay a tax on that private loan for every payment that you make.

And so on and so forth. The point is that we are beyond hypothetical at this point and this is reality, if the mandate in the Health Care bill is allowed to stand. Also the mandate for buying a GM product will come in the form of well the faster you get them to turn a profit the faster we can sell our interest in the company. Which for all intents and purposes they have no intentions selling.

Also people respect words on paper because with out respecting those words, the world would complete and utter chaos.


Very nice reply.

I'm taking a more back seat approach to this because this is my first thread and I'm trying not to act like a sledgehammer.

I couldnt have said it better myself. Star..



posted on Mar, 29 2010 @ 08:31 PM
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The way I see it no sane person would discount it at this point. They are going to need to do something to raise the money to pay China back. I dont doubt their creativity.

Good article from Krauthammer concerning the possibility of a VAT tax.
townhall.com...



posted on Mar, 29 2010 @ 08:36 PM
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Originally posted by captaintyinknots

Originally posted by lilwolf
reply to post by captaintyinknots
 



the op is hypothetical... and clrearly you never specified what part you did not like...

and my statements against the obamam are accrate.

www.cnn.com...

voices.washingtonpost.com...

now here is a good question for you and you need to think about it for awhile before you ramble on..

Has obama violated the seperation of powers?


Actually, i did. I pointed out that it is nothing but fear-mongering.

But hey, i noticed you are completely abandoning your previous argument. Why is that?



since health service or insurance is not covered under the commerce clause then to make people pay for a product or service they do not wish to have..is a direct violation of the constitution and commerce clause...

and I have abandoned nothing at all... you have called me a KKK member and made numerous race card statements and inflammatory remarks about others here... you have gotten ticked off... and yet you have nothing to say except ... "fear mongering"

Ya know i have heard so many people make a statement like that as their only finger of defense... so why not address the entire items and the last question I posed to you.. which was :

Has obama violated the seperation of powers.??



posted on Mar, 29 2010 @ 08:48 PM
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Originally posted by lilwolf

Originally posted by captaintyinknots

Originally posted by lilwolf
reply to post by captaintyinknots
 



the op is hypothetical... and clrearly you never specified what part you did not like...

and my statements against the obamam are accrate.

www.cnn.com...

voices.washingtonpost.com...

now here is a good question for you and you need to think about it for awhile before you ramble on..

Has obama violated the seperation of powers?


Actually, i did. I pointed out that it is nothing but fear-mongering.

But hey, i noticed you are completely abandoning your previous argument. Why is that?



since health service or insurance is not covered under the commerce clause then to make people pay for a product or service they do not wish to have..is a direct violation of the constitution and commerce clause...

and I have abandoned nothing at all... you have called me a KKK member and made numerous race card statements and inflammatory remarks about others here... you have gotten ticked off... and yet you have nothing to say except ... "fear mongering"

Ya know i have heard so many people make a statement like that as their only finger of defense... so why not address the entire items and the last question I posed to you.. which was :

Has obama violated the seperation of powers.??


Thats always going to be one of their " Go To " arguments they use to try to wiggle out of a tough spot mentally. If you fall for it then they try to get you bogged down in the usual racial talking points until you give up. Of course at that point they declare victory.



posted on Mar, 29 2010 @ 09:03 PM
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in·sur·ance (n-shrns)
n.
1.
a. The act, business, or system of insuring.
b. The state of being insured.
c. A means of being insured.
2.
a. Coverage by a contract binding a party to indemnify another against specified loss in return for premiums paid.
b. The sum or rate for which such a contract insures something.
c. The periodic premium paid for this coverage.

It is a product, that provides a service, with no predictable foreseen usage.
It is also a contract.
THAT IS BEING FORCED.
F O R C E D !
It's very simple, not complex.

It's Fascism


[edit on 29-3-2010 by HappilyEverAfter]

[edit on 29-3-2010 by HappilyEverAfter]



posted on Mar, 29 2010 @ 09:15 PM
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reply to post by Thirty_Foot_Smurf
 


Thanks, you could have put the hammer down a few pages back.


reply to post by lilwolf
 



Has obama violated the seperation of powers.??


I'll answer your question for you.

Yes he has, by him and his administration being explicitly involved in the process of writing and passing the bill. The most he can do is outline what he wants and hope Congress delivers a bill that resembles his outline.

If this was somebody from the right in office right now the MSM would be howling about process in which this bill has been written and passed. Of course because it is who it is they say things like "who cares about process" etc.



posted on Mar, 29 2010 @ 10:02 PM
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Originally posted by captaintyinknots

Tell me one point that has caused me to 'lose" this argument?

Show me where I am getting mad.

Youre right, i am frustarated with the sheer paranoia spewed forth here. Frustration is not anger.



*SNIPPED*

Obligatory content to adhere to the thread:

President Obama’s fiscal 2011 budget will generate nearly $10 trillion in cumulative budget deficits over the next 10 years, $1.2 trillion more than the administration projected, and raise the federal debt to 90 percent of the nation’s economic output by 2020, the Congressional Budget Office reported last Thursday.

www.cbo.gov...

They have to do something to raise that revenue. What do you think they are going to do get it captaintyinknots?

Mod Note: Political Baiting and Sniping on ATS – Please Review Link.


[edit on Tue Mar 30 2010 by DontTreadOnMe]



posted on Mar, 29 2010 @ 10:08 PM
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Originally posted by captaintyinknots
Did you read your own source? It is an outlandish hypothetical. It is sensationalism, nothing more.

Your thread title is "Government Can Force Us to Buy General Motors". That is a flat out lie.

This thread needs to be removed.


This is why you won't ever be a moderator....
If any mandate that resembles the healthcare one can be upheld in court, than so can any other mandate that requires a purchase.. Very logical assumption and far more than hypothetical since the healthcare fiasco is already technically mandated.
I have a good suspicion that the healthcare bill will be quashed anyways and will never come to be. If there are threats and violence now, just wait until this crap gets implemented, you haven't seen anything yet.



posted on Mar, 29 2010 @ 10:22 PM
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Interesting debate, folks. I agree that it's not only possible but likely the current administration would attempt such a thing, either by hook or crook.

To that, all I can say is ....


they can take my FORD key when they pry it from my cold dead fingers!



posted on Mar, 29 2010 @ 10:29 PM
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Originally posted by captaintyinknots
...Explain something to me: How can anyone force anyone to BUY anything?


This is what you started with, then you later changed it to something physical.

Let me explain myself first. I am actually for a universal health care, as in a government run health care. I believe that govt run health care will allow more people to work. The system right now rewards people for not working because under a certain income level, you are completely taken care of. Make a little money and you lose benefits. How about we take care of everyone, then people can work for small amounts of money, but making us all a bit more productive, and paying taxes, etc.

This bill is not govt health care; this is the government telling us to purchase a service from a private company. Let me repeat, they are forcing you to BUY something.



posted on Mar, 29 2010 @ 10:36 PM
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Originally posted by Light of Night
reply to post by Thirty_Foot_Smurf
 


Thanks, you could have put the hammer down a few pages back.


reply to post by lilwolf
 



Has obama violated the seperation of powers.??


I'll answer your question for you.

Yes he has, by him and his administration being explicitly involved in the process of writing and passing the bill. The most he can do is outline what he wants and hope Congress delivers a bill that resembles his outline.

If this was somebody from the right in office right now the MSM would be howling about process in which this bill has been written and passed. Of course because it is who it is they say things like "who cares about process" etc.



exactly correct... He was not going to answer that so simple of a question... but you said it well enough and i appreciate it...

oh and i am not going to get bogged down as someone suggested...



posted on Mar, 29 2010 @ 10:58 PM
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Ah , i would rather be Forced to by a Ford . Sorry GM , your cars Stink ............



posted on Mar, 29 2010 @ 11:01 PM
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reply to post by Damian-007
 





Now, IF it's in the Countries Interest to keep their Population Healthy and Strong, If it Benifits Everyone, Regardless of Age, Race, Religion and beliefs then Why Not?


The answer is very, very simple. It doesnt matter if it's mandatory health insurance, vehicle insurance, mandatory seat belts, or motorcycle helmets usage.....

IT'S MY LIFE!!, NOT YOURS!!! Neither you nor anyone else has any right to impose your will on me, nor anyone else. It's all been a bit of mental conditioning from our government, to make us believe without actually saying "I OWN you......You are my PROPERTY......My SLAVE."

In short, because it is Morally wrong, regardless of intentions, to impose one's will on another.



posted on Mar, 29 2010 @ 11:31 PM
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Originally posted by Thirty_Foot_Smurf
I'm taking a more back seat approach to this because this is my first thread


I think you will do well here ~ great first thread. It's all about provoking thought.




posted on Mar, 30 2010 @ 12:42 AM
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Quick Edit: Great post OP and good thinking question!

This is an interesting question to contemplate.

Basically so far, after reading probably only 5 coherent posts in this thread after 5 pages, we have two views: One cannot be forced to buy anything and one will be forced to purchase something for fear of penalty and fine.

I would like to analyze this first: One cannot be forced to buy anything.

Philosophically, this is quite correct. One purely cannot be forced to do anything they wish not to, but not without consequence.

I can choose not to purchase life insurance, but my children and family will most likely suffer in the case of a untimely death. I can choose not to follow the letter of the law, and be held accountable in a court of law amongst a jury of my peers.

So yes, captain and others, in a way you are correct. One cannot be forced to do purchase anything. Yet you fail to realize that for every action there is a consequence; good or bad.

The second: One will be forced to purchase something for fear of penalty or fine.

Currently, through years of trial and error, politicians have been slowly mastering their chicanery upon the people that they swore to serve. They have realized that one cannot directly force another to do something, but through clever marketing, taxes, dubious penalties and other nefarious tactics they can implement policies that will ultimately bring power centrally away from the people.

The hypothetical presented by connecting health care and Feds mandating purchases from certain companies is not a far stretch nor a fear mongering campaign as you have eloquently been putting it.


Lastly I take notice to Captain's posts throughout here and this gem of a quote is fantastic....

Originally posted by captaintyinknots
Man, i wish the real world was that black and white...


Yet you have fought tooth and nail to force people by either ad hominem or fierce angst conveyed by trying present yourself as the level headed, yet superior intellectual in the room. Everything you have posted has been black and white, yet you muse on that you wish the world was as such. So which is it? Contemplating on the sheer idiocy we have seen out of Washington for the past 35 years or just saying this is stupid?



[edit on 30-3-2010 by ownbestenemy]



posted on Mar, 30 2010 @ 01:14 AM
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Well, the government can give tax credits for just about anything it can think of if it chooses...so, in a roundabout way, they could theoretically raise taxes and offset the raise with a credit if you purchased this or that...

So, ya...such a potential "mandate or fine" could be instituted overall.

Will it be done? I dont really see any other major issues in America now frankly...healthcare has been a thorn in the side of the nation for what...60 years now? Is there any other truely big biggies like this?



posted on Mar, 30 2010 @ 01:16 AM
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reply to post by SaturnFX
 


Well, what about the right to a place to live. Cannot live without shelter.

Also, how can one live without food. Gotta have that.

Well, they already have both of those.

So, nevermind.



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