Play time is over.

reply to post by Misoir


Well this will be my last post before bed. While I could be a lot more specific if given the time, I will instead be vague.

What would you do about the corporations limitless powers?

Well for starters we shouldn't treat them as human beings and we should not reward them for doing business outside of the United States. We have laws in place already though we choose to soften them and ignore them. Also I think more strict lobbyist laws need to be in place if not on the corporations, then on the Congress in DC.

What would you do about the limitless greed of bankers and CEO's?

Once again if we would have stuck to our guns in the first place we would never be in this scenario. Obviously at this point restrictions need to be reinstated and there has to be some regulation.

What would you do about the safety of consumer items?

I don't feel there should be restrictions or bans on any consumer items. Putting a system in place for "approval" or sorts by an unbiased government organization would be a good step, however, it should not banned "unapproved" items from being on the market. Consumers should just be knowledgeable about what they buy.

What would you do about the protection of the workers?

Honestly, I don't know, but I am getting really tired.

What would you do about the growing income inequality?

Inequality is a way of life. Not everyone is going to be as wealthy as everyone else. However, most of the ways people became wealthy were through legal loopholes and lax in regulations that were already in place as mentioned above. Honestly at this point you can slow the divide, but there is nothing short of socialism that would close the gap.

What would you do about the power of corporations in government; lobbying, contributions, etc...?

See all of the above.

Honestly the system is just so defunct and corrupt and unexplainable at this point that this is one of the reasons I feel that "reset" is needed.

What would you do about the poor/unemployed/underemployed?

Wean them off of government programs except for the disabled and elderly. It would be a long ride but eventually people would have to become less selfish and more morally sound that the populace would be able to help these people themselves - otherwise these people can work just as hard as anybody else can.






Overall, to fix all of these problems under the current system would ultimately just lead to even more restrictions and more losses of freedom. This is because they way they went about dealing with them in the passed has screwed it up even more. I honestly see it as literally IMPOSSIBLE to fix these problems and still maintain sovereignty and individual liberties.

reply to post by Wolf321


What would you do about the corporations limitless powers?
What would you do about the limitless greed of bankers and CEO's?
What would you do about the safety of consumer items?
What would you do about the protection of the workers?
REVISED
We all know corporations have limitless powers so what would you do to protect the country from their evils such as making laws that restrict them or just letting them run free in competition?

What would you do about the amount of money the CEO's and bankers make which is obviously absurd, would you somehow alter their pay inderictly?

Since libertarianism wants to get rid of regulations there must be a way to keep items safe from toxins and other dangers, so how would you do this without regulation?

How would you protect workers wages, their working conditions and their hours, vacations, etc.. How would you keep them safe?

Originally posted by Misoir
We all know corporations have limitless powers so what would you do to protect the country from their evils such as making laws that restrict them or just letting them run free in competition?

I don't think corporations have limitless power. I think they get away with a lot of tax loopholes, but they are always at the mercy of their shareholders and the customers they serve.

What would you do about the amount of money the CEO's and bankers make which is obviously absurd, would you somehow alter their pay inderictly?

I would do nothing. If you want to limit their pay, see what I said above. Get the word out about their ridiculous bonuses and let their shareholders and customers withdraw. If they make a ludicrous contract to give gobs of cash to someone no matter what, that business deserves to fail on its own.

Since libertarianism wants to get rid of regulations there must be a way to keep items safe from toxins and other dangers, so how would you do this without regulation?

Libertarians don't want to get rid of all regulation. The area that come to mind when you say this are drugs. I'm sure you meant more, but that's what came to mind. Drugs, after some basic testing, should be an at your own risk item.

How would you protect workers wages, their working conditions and their hours, vacations, etc.. How would you keep them safe?

Safety issues are already covered by existing regulations, which I have heard no one call to repeal. As for the pay and benefits, that should be left up to the employer and the free market.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by hawkiye

So the right to not be plundered and stolen from under color of law is a vague concept?

Have an example? Because I'm assuming you mean you don't want to pay taxes...but I bet you want to enjoy all the benefits that they provide.

I see you are still under the illusion that taxes actually pay for government services. I suggesst you google the Grace Commission report and CAFR1

The right to travel without interference is a vague concept?

Agains...a specific example would be great. I'm trying for the life of me to think of where I can't travel to without interference within our nation...and I'm coming up blank for a reasonable example.

I realize it is mentally challenging for you to think that much but geeze you could at least try? You are cruising down the road no one around you come to a stop sign you can sell all directions for miles you slow down but don't quite stop and roll through lo and behold a state trooper hiding behind a bush pops out and starts harassing you for not doing a complete stops and cites/extorts you for x amount of money. Where is the injured party who were you harming? No one and of course you had to get permission and pay a fee to travel anywhere you go now days and if you don;t display evidence in the form of a license plate with tags you will be stopped harassed and extorted and jailed of you resist for not paying your protection money. Again who is the injured party who have you harmed? No one! No Injured party no crime period!

The right to make a living and keep all the fruits of my labors without being extorted under color of law is vague?

So this must mean taxes...right? You don't want to pay any taxes? Or are you ok with some...just not all? Do you enjoy the any of the benefits that taxes provide? Interstates? Libraries? Schools? Anything?

Yep I don't want to pay taxes against my will again see my first answer on taxes.

The right to be secure on my person and property?

You want to carry your gun everywhere you go...right? You think ANY "arms" control is bad...right? So where is my nuke...I want a nuke as the 2nd ammendment says I should have...and a tank...where is my tank? Do you think those are reasonable requests??? Or do you think there is a line? If you do think there is a line...why do you think it so odd that some peoples line isn't exactly where YOUR line is?

Well if I put a nuke in my yard I am oppressing my neighbors aren't I. The basis for all law in a free country is "oppress no one". You should read the bill of rights because this one is right out of it and it means I should not be subject to unlawful search and seizure but yea I am free to carry any means of self defense I desire to be secure on my person

The right to not be harassed for growing certain kinds of plants?

You want to grow your own marijuana? Maybe your neighbor wants to grow a whole backyard of opium? And...along with your above point...he wants to post armed guards on his roof 24/7 to protect it. This is the world you want to live in?

Yep that is the world I want to live in and despite the vision of the illicit drug trade you conjure up if it weren't for government oppression it would not be as valuable and there would be no need for the scenario you imagine since anyone that wanted to could grow as much as they want in their own backyard.

On the contrary it is you socialist commies

LOL...why not throw in "nazi" in there too??? Don't hold back...call us all Hitler. And WHY...just because we have different opinions than you do...I can only assume you hate the first ammendment.

Okl I will as Hitler and Stalin were both commies one was a fascist the other a socialist two sides to the same coin. They took from the people against thier will and gave to others who did not earn it. They killed millions of thier own people who resisted. And gee you guys wonder why I am against forced socialism... Sigh!

As for the first amendment you assume to much. I am for freedom and personal responsibility you can say what you want you just can't take my stuff against my will why is it so hard for you commie/nazis to understand that?

[edit on 25-3-2010 by hawkiye]

reply to post by gwydionblack

Well for starters we shouldn't treat them as human beings and we should not reward them for doing business outside of the United States. We have laws in place already though we choose to soften them and ignore them. Also I think more strict lobbyist laws need to be in place if not on the corporations, then on the Congress in DC.

Just thought I would reply to say that I actually 100% agree with you on this. See...we aren't opposed on everything...it's refreshing to find a common ground.

I'll end on this...so we can have at least one post where we are in total agreement...I even gave you a star

reply to post by Misoir


One of my best friends is a democratic socialist, my girlfriend is a constitutionalist liberal. I'm a constitutionalist libertarian. We all have one thing in common, we are NOT being served as citizens, we are being stolen from, and our rights as individuals and as a whole are being threatened. We all agree that something must be done, and if all else fails we must use our god given right to self defense. We are all on opposite sides of the political spectrum, but we know that the enemy is not each other, the enemy is a Federal oligarchy, and it must be shrunk or dissolved. Preferably shrunk.



[edit on 25-3-2010 by projectvxn]

reply to post by hawkiye

I realize it is mentally challenging for you to think that much but geeze you could at least try? You are cruising down the road no one around you come to a stop sign you can sell all directions for miles you slow down but don't quite stop and roll through lo and behold a state trooper hiding behind a bush pops out and starts harassing you for not doing a complete stops and cites/extorts you for x amount of money. Where is the injured party who were you harming? No one and of course you had to get permission and pay a fee to travel anywhere you go now days and if you don;t display evidence in the form of a license plate with tags you will be stopped harassed and extorted and jailed of you resist for not paying your protection money. Again who is the injured party who have you harmed? No one! No Injured party no crime period!

Driving isn't a "right"...correct??? Or are you suggesting that driving is a basic human right? I believe you entered a contract when you recieved your drivers license...and you agreed to obey all traffic laws. Despite what you say about taxes not paying for anything...someone had to pay for that road you are driving on. Did you pay for the construction of that road all by yourself??? No...you did not. So if you want to drive on that road...you will follow the rules.

This was a pretty lame attempt at an example. Care to try again?

Well if I put a nuke in my yard I am oppressing my neighbors aren't I.

How so? You can kill them as easily with your gun as you can with a nuke. How are you rationalizing that a nuke oppresses your neighbor? By fear? Could your neighbor maybe feel oppressed by you sitting on your porch with your shotgun? But you think that is ok...right?

Yep that is the world I want to live in and despite the vision of the illicit drug trade you conjure up if it weren't for government oppression it would not be as valuable and there would be no need for the scenario you imagine since anyone that wanted to could grow as much as they want in their own backyard.

Really...that seems over simplified. But oh well...there is no way to definately say if my view or yours would be the outcome...so no use debating it. As long as we both admit both are possibilites.

You know, we could all sit here and argue to the end of time about the right vs. the left.

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT.

We are all humans, we are all Americans, and we are all united under one flag. We all bleed the same blood, and we all have mothers who we love dearly.

Why does it have to be a partisan issue anymore? Why can't it be an American or a HUMAN issue? This $hit is happening all over the world, and I'm tired of all of you people blaming the right or the left for not only the USA's problems, but the world's problems. IT'S EVERYBODY'S FAULT. We have become so ingrained in our way of life, from the iPods to cellphones, to effing MTV that nobody seems to care about what really matters anymore. We have forgotten that we are all people, we are all the same on the inside, and that we are ALL screwed if we don't figure it out soon.

I honestly think you are all wrong and need to go back and re-evaluate your status on this Earth, because I am sick of the bickering.

If this comes off as abrasive, then I'm glad, because it was meant to be.


Peace be with you.

-truthseeker

Originally posted by Misoir
reply to post by Wolf321

What would you do about the corporations limitless powers?

Corporations limitless powers are derived by government intervention into those markets they pass regulation eliminating the natural competition of the politically connected corps. Without such intervention the corporations would not have such power and would have to compete honestly or go out of business as people would vote with thier feet and gravitate to businesses who have a real reputation of honesty and integrity These corporations never had this kind of power until government intervention into the markets.

What would you do about the limitless greed of bankers and CEO's?

Again they are granted a monopoly on creating money by government. Take that away and they would have to compete honestly for peoples business or go out of business.

What would you do about the safety of consumer items?

Buyer beware. It's called personal responsibility companies that want continued business would have to make safe products. Right now they are politically protected and put out all kinds of garbage that is not safe. And thr crap from China look at that how well has government intervention taken care of that. People need to stop putting their trust in government the continues to fail us.

What would you do about the protection of the workers?

Personal responsibility vote with your feet, go work somewhere else. Companies that want quality workers will have to treat them well. The debt based society creates desperation forcing people to take jobs they would normally not again it is because of government intervention and the stealing of our gold and silver based monetary system. take that away and the problem goes away.

REVISED
We all know corporations have limitless powers so what would you do to protect the country from their evils such as making laws that restrict them or just letting them run free in competition?

Well see my answer above. You people have to understand we had a free market society up until about 1914 and we were very prosperous until the Federal Reserve act was passed and then just 14 years later we had the worst depression in our nations history even the Fed act was sold as preventing those types of things. Then we had another in 1970s, 80's, and 90's and now poised for the worst yet..

The revisionist history that it was worse before the fed act is the biggest lie yet. We had some boom bust cycles but none of them were even close to those of the 20th century and most of them were local or regionalized due to some shady banks in those areas. But the people had free choice and were not limited to one kind of currency or bank and took thier business to honest banks and we prospered. The free market has flourished any-time it was allowed to work freely.

What would you do about the amount of money the CEO's and bankers make which is obviously absurd, would you somehow alter their pay inderictly?

Of course not its nobodies business what anyone makes in their private business. Again see my first answer on corporations and why they have such power. In a free market they would be forced to live within thier means or go out of business. No bailouts!

Since libertarianism wants to get rid of regulations there must be a way to keep items safe from toxins and other dangers, so how would you do this without regulation?

Privatization. You wouldn't let people dump thier garbage in your yard or toxic chemicals next door that would be oppressing you by poisoning the water and environment. I would not be opposed to general laws about poisoning the environment. But the big corps again they get exemptions from all these laws by paying off politicians And the EPA protects markets for these polluters instead of protecting like they are supposed to so they can operate with no competition and poison the environment.

How would you protect workers wages, their working conditions and their hours, vacations, etc.. How would you keep them safe?

Again personal responsibility. Work somewhere else. Once you got government out of it companies would have to operate honestly and treat their workers well or go out of business. It is not the job of government to do what the individual can do himself. I know this conjures images of sweat shops etc. But again these were in areas like NY etc. and there was all kinds of government intervention and politics involved to protect markets and maximize profit while exploiting workers that people fail to understand unless they study real history.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by hawkiye

I realize it is mentally challenging for you to think that much but geeze you could at least try? You are cruising down the road no one around you come to a stop sign you can sell all directions for miles you slow down but don't quite stop and roll through lo and behold a state trooper hiding behind a bush pops out and starts harassing you for not doing a complete stops and cites/extorts you for x amount of money. Where is the injured party who were you harming? No one and of course you had to get permission and pay a fee to travel anywhere you go now days and if you don;t display evidence in the form of a license plate with tags you will be stopped harassed and extorted and jailed of you resist for not paying your protection money. Again who is the injured party who have you harmed? No one! No Injured party no crime period!

Driving isn't a "right"...correct??? Or are you suggesting that driving is a basic human right? I believe you entered a contract when you recieved your drivers license...and you agreed to obey all traffic laws. Despite what you say about taxes not paying for anything...someone had to pay for that road you are driving on. Did you pay for the construction of that road all by yourself??? No...you did not. So if you want to drive on that road...you will follow the rules.

This was a pretty lame attempt at an example. Care to try again?

Just because you couldn't understand it speaks more to your mental capacity then it being lame. Driving is defined in law as for commercial purposes such as carrying fright or passengers in commerce. Traveling in my personal capacity is a right and upheld by numerous supreme court decisions . And I didn't sign any contract and if I did it was not fully disclosed. The only rules is not to oppress anyone so I was following the rules, no one has a right to drag me into court unless they have a personal claim against me. No injured party no claim period.

Well if I put a nuke in my yard I am oppressing my neighbors aren't I.

How so? You can kill them as easily with your gun as you can with a nuke. How are you rationalizing that a nuke oppresses your neighbor? By fear? Could your neighbor maybe feel oppressed by you sitting on your porch with your shotgun? But you think that is ok...right?

Well A nuke is radio active and harmful to the environment therefore oppressive. You people always come up with these ridiculous scenarios to support you ridiculous arguments. Yeah I am going to shoot my neighbor with a nuke and kill myself and everyone around me for miles. idiot... Like anyone could afford a nuuke much less put one in thier yard... Sigh

Yep that is the world I want to live in and despite the vision of the illicit drug trade you conjure up if it weren't for government oppression it would not be as valuable and there would be no need for the scenario you imagine since anyone that wanted to could grow as much as they want in their own backyard.

Really...that seems over simplified. But oh well...there is no way to definately say if my view or yours would be the outcome...so no use debating it. As long as we both admit both are possibilites.

Again why would they need to protect it unless it was hard to get and worth lots of money. Make it legal and all that goes away it is simple logic. That is why coc aine is so cheap in Brazil. What cost thousands here is a few dollars there. It's not some theory its real life.



[edit on 25-3-2010 by hawkiye]

reply to post by hawkiye


I am hoping you are not as dumb as you seem. When you are allowed to get a license..you are to follow the traffic laws made by the government. So yeh...the cop has a right to take you to court..if you broke the law.

346.04 Obedience to traffic officers, signs and signals;
fleeing from officer.

(2) No operator of a vehicle shall disobey the instructions of
any official traffic sign or signal unless otherwise directed by a
traffic officer.

and

346.46 Vehicles to stop at stop signs and school
crossings. (1) Except when directed to proceed by a traffic
officer or traffic control signal, every operator of a vehicle
approaching an official stop sign at an intersection shall cause
such vehicle to stop before entering the intersection and shall yield
the right−of−way to other vehicles which have entered or are
approaching the intersection upon a highway which is not controlled
by an official stop sign or traffic signal.
(2) Stops required by sub. (1) shall be made in the following
manner:
(a) If there is a clearly marked stop line, the operator shall stop
the vehicle immediately before crossing such line.
(b) If there is no clearly marked stop line, the operator shall
stop the vehicle immediately before entering the crosswalk on the
near side of the intersection.
(c) If there is neither a clearly marked stop line nor a marked
or unmarked crosswalk at the intersection or if the operator cannot
efficiently observe traffic on the intersecting roadway from the
stop made at the stop line or crosswalk, the operator shall, before
entering the intersection, stop the vehicle at such point as will
enable the operator to efficiently observe the traffic on the intersecting
roadway.


When you get your license...these are the rules you agree to abide by.

House GOP leader says bullet fired into office after health care vote

Washington (CNN) -- Rep. Eric Cantor, the No. 2 Republican in the House of Representatives, said Thursday that a bullet had been fired through a window at his campaign office in Richmond, Virginia. A Richmond police spokeswoman confirmed to CNN that a bullet was fired at the congressman's office. "We are investigating the circumstance surrounding it," spokeswoman Karla Peters said. Cantor also said that he had received threatening messages but that he would not publicly release the messages out of concern that doing so would only incite further violence.

www.cnn.com...

The Left doesn't do violence?

I got two words for you: Weather Underground.

Oh and lets not forget Obama's favorite "teacher" at U of I, Bill Ayers, who was a founding member of the WU.

I'm never for armed revolution, I'm for being armed to defend myself from the people who called themselves "revolutionaries" in the 60's, "progressives" in the '80's and now go by the name "liberals" today.

"You shot an unarmed man!", says Lil Bill.
"He should of armed himself if he's going to decorate his saloon with my friend", replied Will Munny

reply to post by indianajoe77


Is that what you do when backed in a corner? Point fingers?

We are talking about now, not 40 years ago. This is a pattern of increasing violence happening now! Now!

reply to post by TheOneElectric


Those who do not know their history are doomed to repeat.

The point I'm making is that there are lunatics on both sides that take things to nth degree. From abortion clinic bombers to the folks who smash windows and burn cars everytime the G12 meets to discuss monetary policy.

It seems that you exeplify the problem. When group A is in power, group B threatens and group A doesn't understand why. Then when group B is in power, pulling the same shenanigans that they disliked group A pulling, group A threatens, and group B doesn't understand why.

That's the corral of the sheeple.

reply to post by Misoir


silly lefty.... Do you now understand? Many Americans HATE this BILL, even MSNBC had a poll that showed a majority diddnt like the bill. You lefties are a funny bunch. In the 60s you tried to fire bomb buildings but werent really good at, you killed a few thats for sure... But hey Look at Tim McViegh he levels a whole freaking building... Man you think I am afraid of weather Underground types and the Left? I a more afraid of The rights Tim McVieghs...

The left would not win a war as a matter of fact no one would win a war... Yes there needs to be change the change I want to see is the entire government booted out the whole lot of them there liars and theifs... You were up in arms about bush's lying but you dont say a damn thing about Obama's. the stupidty amazes me.

I should also note the many house Repukes are also getting Death Threats, so whats that say that its just the right doing it... One Jean Schmidt from Ohio played a voice mail that saied all Reupkes are Racist... Hmmm where have we heard that one before... You should really Rethink what you are saying... The Feds are out of Control, but yet you want them to do more... Really?

And I am by no means afraid of the limpy left, Uncle Sam Trained me to well, and I picked up combat experience in the Iraq.....
[edit on 25-3-2010 by poedxsoldiervet]

[edit on 25-3-2010 by poedxsoldiervet]

I don't see how any revolution will help. I would think it would only create a more chaotic state. People(politicians/those in a seat of power to any degree) shouldn't fan the flames if they are not willing to deal with the possibility of a wildfire. They seem to forget that actions have consequences, good and bad. No god-like person is going to swoop in the nick of time and save us should someone incite the flames to spread out of control.

[edit on 25-3-2010 by ItsAgentScully]

I honestly wonder how many of these internet hero types will ever wage war on the government or fight one another.. i tell you what if civil war in the states does come and the russian analyst was right about it breaking up into different factions by Summer 2010.

You yanks better make sure that this s**t never happens again, install a decent government and decent policies instead of holding the world hostage which in reality completely and utterly loathes you.

I see civil war more likely here in the UK with immigration, UAF thugs and their communist masters along with islamification than in the USA.
But who knows...

Fed up of seeing these "Time for revolution!" "Assasinate Obama" or "Civil war is now join the guerillas" threads hopefully when you all kill each other off on this foolhardy "crusade", ATS and the world will get some peace.

reply to post by Misoir


I have not heard of one call for a violent revolution. Yes, there are crazies out there that will call for this crap, but please...don't generalize all non-lefties as making the call to arms. Instead of threats, and promises of fighting, why don't you try to rally everyone together against a common enemy that will soon be oppressing all of us, not just the left, and not just the right, or the middle? Wouldn't it be in our best interest to unite?

Also, how can you be sure that the actions taken against democratic leaders were not done by angry democrats that did not support the bill? There are some out there that are against it you know. In fact, most of the liberals that I see are complete loonies anyway, falling for this socialist garbage that the democrats are trying to pass. So, it goes both ways.

My point, is this...until we learn to work together, we are doomed. They want to divide us. They want us to attack each other first, so that they can say they did not do anything wrong when they come in and eradicate under the disguise of crowd control achieving what they have always wished for.

Post like this just further the divide and spew hatred. Do something good. Try to unite people instead of widening the gap.

reply to post by whaaa


These are true words and the average ATS user does not want to accept this truth. STAR for you my friend.