Rape? It's the fault of the victims, say 50 per cent of women

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher

Originally posted by PaganArchangel
If males were not fixated on sex then there wouldn't be a multi - billion dollar industry catering to it.
There are those here who wish to deny their nature when it can be seen in jails everywhere...for heaven's sake it isn't the females who are acting like this..

No one said men aren't fixated on sex. We are in fact fixated on sex...and there is nothing wrong with that when it is fixated in a healthy and controlled manner.

So it is "healthy" for men to watch (often female degrading) porn and want sex.. but it is not healthy for women to express their sexuality by wearing a flirty dress? Wanting to look attractive is very healthy yet you accuse women of "dressing like whores" yet you think men being fixated on sex is fine and healthy. Double standards.. if men were NOT taught to be so fixated on sex there might be less rapes.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
Sorry riley, but you have your head very deep in the sand on this issue. I am not going to keep repeating the same information when you continue to ignore and create Straw Man arguments in response every time I do.

RIGHT Your arguments consisted of a pic of jessica alba in a long evening gown. You said that her in jeans would be a more modest outfit.. even though she was at a black tie event. Your other argument was based on a pic of middle aged women and you were saying that they were showing of their sexy bits when they were actually quite conservatively dressed.

An example for those fixated on making this a classic "Men mistreating women" thread:

Erm.. it is a thread about FEMALE victims of rape. When men rape women that usually qualifies as mistreatment so it was ALREADY a thread about men misstreating women. There is no need to try make it something it already is.

..although you have now taken it upon yourself to actually change the subject to being about gay male victim rape which does seem a tad hypocritical:

If a homosexual man goes to a Gay Bar dressed scantily, flirts and drinks with other men there, goes home with somebody...you know where this leads to. Did he deserve to be raped? NO. Did his attire say "please rape me" NO. But his decision to put himself in that situation and make himself vulnerable heightened the risk substantially. Had he taken better precautions beforehand, he could have had a much better chance of avoiding this negative experience.

You should really post some pictures of Michael Douglas at an awards event in a suit as evidence.. This thread is NOT about gay rapes.

It seems many more of these types of rape are being reported as opposed to the "stranger in the bushes" number of cases. They both exist, but obviously the one can be avoided much more easily than the other.

Please post statistics on "dressed scantily" rapes, vs stranger in bushes rapes, home invasion rapes and someone she knows rapes and any other kinds of rape.

[edit on 17-2-2010 by riley]

reply to post by riley



Oh Riley...when will you stop taking my words out of context and saying I said things that I didn't???

So it is "healthy" for men to watch (often female degrading) porn and want sex

Did I mention anything about porn? I said men are fixated on sex...and it is true because biologically we are set up that way...it's called testosterone. And yes...I think some porn is very degrading to women...but then again...no one is forcing those women to participate in making that porn. Yes...I know that if men wouldn't watch it, then there wouldn't be a market and no demand and blah blah blah. But still...are you going to place any RESPONSIBILITY on the women who decide to be porn stars? Or are they victims too?

but it is not healthy for women to express their sexuality by wearing a flirty dress?

I didn't know women had a biological need to express their sexuality. And I thought you had said earlier that you and other women don't dress attractive for men...that you do it for yourself. But if you are expressing your sexuality in your dress...then you are in fact doing for the benefit for men.

Wanting to look attractive is very healthy yet you accuse women of "dressing like whores"

Do you care to quote me on saying women "dressing like whores"??? Because I am pretty sure I never said that. Single my post where I said that. Because it is getting really annoying you using strawmen arguments in an attempt to make me look like I am saying things I have never said.

yet you think men being fixated on sex is fine and healthy. Double standards.. if men were NOT taught to be so fixated on sex there might be less rapes.

We are not taught to be fixated on sex. Here is where the difference between men and women come into play. YOU as a women can never understand that we are not taught to think about sex...it is just how we are. I know that won't stop you from making the claim that we are taught to be fixated on sex and that this in some way is responsible for all rapes...because I know you don't let logic and reason get in your way in your attempts to make a point.


So one simple question for you....do you think it is not a biological driven process that makes men more fixated on sex than women???

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


You are wasting your time, friend. Society demands that men be understanding and considerate of Women's biological, physiological and psychological needs. But we are "misogynists" if we ask for the same consideration. Any time women are the victims, men are the perpetrators. This is the kind of mindset we are dealing with in today's world. This is a very sick product of the Women's Liberation/Feminist Movement.

-----------

And riley, the thread is actually about WHY 50% of women in a survey believe victims are to blame for rape. People then state logical reasons why this MIGHT be the case, and then they are given labels and having Straw Woman arguments thrown at them left, right and centre.

[edit on 17/2/2010 by Dark Ghost]

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by riley

 

Oh Riley...when will you stop taking my words out of context and saying I said things that I didn't???

So it is "healthy" for men to watch (often female degrading) porn and want sex

Did I mention anything about porn? I said men are fixated on sex...and it is true because biologically we are set up that way...it's called testosterone. And yes...I think some porn is very degrading to women...but then again...no one is forcing those women to participate in making that porn. Yes...I know that if men wouldn't watch it, then there wouldn't be a market and no demand and blah blah blah. But still...are you going to place any RESPONSIBILITY on the women who decide to be porn stars? Or are they victims too?

Apparently a large percentage of sex workers have been sexually abused sometime in their life before becoming sex works so perhaps.

but it is not healthy for women to express their sexuality by wearing a flirty dress?

I didn't know women had a biological need to express their sexuality.

Of course they do. You say men are biologically set up to fixate on sex because of testosterone yet women have no biologial need to express themselves sexually? Did you know women actually have orgasms too? Maybe you didn't.

And I thought you had said earlier that you and other women don't dress attractive for men...that you do it for yourself. But if you are expressing your sexuality in your dress...then you are in fact doing for the benefit for men.

Nice try at spin but that is not what I said at all.

The fact is alot of the time women dress sexy to express themselves, their own sexuality (that does not mean just wanting sex) and to compete with other women. Just as men have differing ways of achieving and expressing social status so do women (and no it's not just for the prize of male attention). Flattery is nice but women do not solely dress for the attention of men like they are desperate concumbines that only live for pleasing men:

I made it quite clear that I think women have various reasons for wanting to express their sexuality.. I included attracting men but not just attracting men.

Wanting to look attractive is very healthy yet you accuse women of "dressing like whores"

Do you care to quote me on saying women "dressing like whores"??? Because I am pretty sure I never said that. Single my post where I said that. Because it is getting really annoying you using strawmen arguments in an attempt to make me look like I am saying things I have never said.

You are complaining about being misquoted when you blatently lied about what I said? You have made it very clear you think what a woman wears contributes to her own rape.

yet you think men being fixated on sex is fine and healthy. Double standards.. if men were NOT taught to be so fixated on sex there might be less rapes.

We are not taught to be fixated on sex.

Well.. yes you are. From magazine racks on newstands to tv ads. Men are taught that his social status is partially dependent on sexual conquests.

Here is where the difference between men and women come into play. YOU as a women can never understand that we are not taught to think about sex...it is just how we are.

I do not deny men are not naturally preoccupide with sex to some extent.. but our culture is dominated by messages that men should have sex as uch as possible.

I know that won't stop you from making the claim that we are taught to be fixated on sex and that this in some way is responsible for all rapes...because I know you don't let logic and reason get in your way in your attempts to make a point.

You have been implying all through our this thread that what a woman wears might prompt a man to go rape her. I do not believe men are naturally rapists. If they ARE the perhaps porn should be banned rather than expecting women to cover up any flesh that might tip them over the edge..

So one simple question for you....do you think it is not a biological driven process that makes men more fixated on sex than women???

I think that biological urge is mangified ten fold by our sex obsessed culture and some men have a problem distinguishing fantasy women from real ones. It must be frustrating when they realise real women don't fold like the ones they put under their beds.

[edit on 17-2-2010 by riley]

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
reply to post by OutKast Searcher

 

And riley, the thread is actually about WHY 50% of women in a survey believe victims are to blame for rape. People then state logical reasons why this MIGHT be the case, and then they are given labels and having Straw Woman arguments thrown at them left, right and centre.

Oh good.. so you concede that this thread is not about gay rape or what middle aged women wear at award ceremonies.

Here is another little snippet from the OP article:

Twenty-four per cent of this age group said wearing a short skirt, accepting a drink or having a conversation with the rapist made victims partly responsible

Read more: www.dailymail.co.uk...-victims-say-50-women.html#ixzz0fmdLTaUv

So even have a conversation with a potential rapist makes women partially responsible according to some. Maybe if they had bothered to actually ASK if their rapist was a rapist the whole rape could be avoided? You would think that would occur to most women!

I'm starting to think this study is bs as the answers sound like they are coming from halfwits. Why would women say talking to a rapist would make them responsible for their own rape? A woman would never talk to a known rapist. Why? because he might rape them.

"Hi.. so before we exchange phone numbers.. are you of the same religion? What are your hobbies? Wow we have so much in common! What kind of work do you do? Whats your favourite colour? Do you have any pets? So..... are you a rapist..?"

No that wouldn't cause problems with dating.

[edit on 17-2-2010 by riley]

reply to post by riley


Riley, do you have a Straw Man creation machine in your possession? If you don't then I really do admire your ability to create some of the most interesting Straw Mans ever produced. Your ability to distort the views of your opponents by misrepresenting their positions and trying to use this against them is truly astonishing.

Out of curiosity, have you ever considered being a Politician?

Originally posted by Dock9

Society and women's lib have for decades now have been hitting men with a big stick which says: ' Women can do what they like. They are equal to you. They can wear ...

so, hypothetically, because divorce laws are essentially discriminating against men and due to political lobbying surrounding female rights (or even preferential treatment, which would be wrong) they're supposed to limit themselves in terms of clothing and freedom of movement?

now look at my analogy:

what about 'affirmative action'? would it be OK to beat blacks (and on occasion lynch them?, mirroring a rape that turns deadly) because the reality is that black on white crime is apparently treated differently than the reverse?? (before anyone jumps at me i know that's not what the AA laws say, but the effects coincided with their passing into law)

that's a non-sequitur. remedy the problem politicians created for purposes of division, but don't lash out on the supposed beneficiaries of detrimental legislation. it's exactly what they want, btw, because one target group after the other can be marginalized at will. where does that lead again? eliminating the cause works differently, that's for sure.

In the natural world, it's the males of the species which fight each other for the best mates

Clearly, the human species has gone insane to the point we now have females dressing and squawking the loudest and competing with each other for that ever-decreasing male attention

the natural world knows many species that do not exhibit that many differences between male and female appearance, much like humans. apes for one are not brightly colored and i refuse to take the role of birds and lizards, sorry, but that's a baseless comparison.


to be totally blunt, if your warped and perversely romantic 'survival-of-the-fittest' take on things was taken seriously, i'll have to ask you why you even object to rape and murder, after all, the 'best genes' might as well be the ones that are >forcibly transferred< (ugh, that's the worst euphemism i'll ever intend to use ). i suggest you stop right there, no matter how much caution some of you exercise, their philosophy shows, eventually. quite sobering, tbh.


PS: i'm well aware of the societal issues surrounding female and male 'leeway' for lack of a better term, which is often unjust, but that's in no way connected to the topic here, which belongs to the realm of violence.

it's not about accidents, not about mistakes, not even a knee-jerk over-reaction, but premediated violence. it's like saying it's OK to stab your neighbor because he let his dog c**p on your lawn and distinguishes a violent society from a civilized one. no matter what happened to you, from what you posted here, you seem to embrace a violent view of the world, which regards violence as a tool for regular use (and personal gain, resulting in dependency) rather than the exception that must be avoided.

the irony is, i very much doubt you are acting on your concepts, so, all you're doing is justifying what is bad for you without getting anything in return. it's one thing to be gradually dehumanized but it's even worse to think like your own 'natural' enemies, thereby validating them, but hey, i'm probably over-analyzing too, maybe i'm some sort of 'deputy-shrink'. oh well...

[edit on 2010.2.17 by Long Lance]

Twenty-four per cent of this age group said wearing a short skirt, accepting a drink or having a conversation with the rapist made victims partly responsible
------------------------------------------------------------------

how short is short? gee, from what I've seen some of the younger women wearing, even to work....why worry about the short skirt anyway?

accepting a drink...okay, don't have to worry about that one, unless of course, I was wrong to accept that coke that day when me and my husband visited his house the other day.. ...and oh no!! he lives in the shady part of town!! I must be doomed!!

have conversations with strange men....okay guys, don't ever stop your car to ask me where the heck you are when you get lost in that shady area of town!! I'll yell rape and run!!

I wish there was a way to find the stats on the percentage of rapes that involved drunken, "dressed like a slut", women against those that were modestly dress and sober! I think it would end the painful existence of this thread!

and no, if you see me walking down that lonesome highway after dark in my conservative dress, I am not looking for trouble...the store's just a block away, and I am finding myself needing something. live with it and go on your way!! or, well, you will come to realize that you just ran into the craziest witch ( a little word play is need to get the real meaning of that word) on the planet!!!

ya...sure...there's a motive behind this poll....probably the few people they polled were all sitting in the pews of some ultra conservative southern church!

I agree, the young women today should be a little more modestly dressed...but got to tell ya something here....they ARE young women..you can expect them (and the young men also), to act dumb time to time. to defy their parent's advice, ect....that is what growing up is all about.

the "it's the women's fault, she invited the rape" is an age old excuse....even in times when women were dressing way more conservative than I do! it's driven way too many societies to go to the extremes and force women to live in a way that no man would ever accept!!!

so, while I accept the idea that women shouldn't be walking down a lonely street in the middle of the night looking like a hooker...
I completely reject the idea that a women walking down that lonely street, or a women jumping on the latest fashion fad, or a women drinking, or a women talking to a man she doesn't know well, is "asking for trouble" and somehow partially responsible for whatever happens to her! it wouldn't matter if we all wore burkas and walked silently down the streets!! there would still be a chance that some loon would take advantage of the situation!
and of course, there would still be some who would try to place at least part of the blame on the women!!!

is that close enough to reality for ya?

I note that not many who're protesting so loudly here about the fact 50% of women blame women for alleged rape ---- are steering WELL clear of that other thread

reply to post by Dock9


I don't think we're steering clear of that thread, as you put it, because we don't want to debate it....but because we all agree that what she did was wrong.

Reporting a false rape, lying, what have you is wrong. Period.

But how does that relate to the topic at hand?

reply to post by smyleegrl


they both shed doubt on the extent of guilt of the real rapists???

no matter what women's issue you are talking about....it seems like they all play by the same guidebook....
blame the women, accuse her of lying, point out what she could have done differently, and get her defending her actions.

[edit on 17-2-2010 by dawnstar]

I am not surprised at the poll results. I could take the same poll in my family at a multi-generational holiday gathering, and I would expect the same percentages. Would it be a derailment of the thread to ask if any of you think the women-ask-for-it attitude will ever go away? I don't believe it will. Wishing won't make it so. Name-calling won't make it so. Educating men and women on the true statistics about who does and doesn't get raped won't make it so. I don't think I am a pessimist. I think I am a realist.

How could rape ever be the fault of the victim? By comparison, that's like saying that it's a homosexual's fault for being a victim of a hate crime.

Placing the blame on the victim is just a tactic used by sleazy attorneys in court. By the way, that is a very small percentage of women who actually report rape to the police. I know someone who was raped, and she has told me that she never told her parents or the police, because of the shame it brought her. Rape is definitely a horrible crime.

I do, however, agree that some women (not many) fraudulently report that they've been raped by someone they know... to get revenge. That, in my opinion, is just as terrible as rape itself. I'm not sure how rape cases are proven or disproven, but it seems like it would be fairly easy for a woman to easily get someone who did not rape her imprisoned. That's me speculating, but what exactly would she have to prove other than she was with the guy at the time she says he raped her? Anyone know any more about this which you could fill me in on?

As for men being raped by women, I really doubt this happens very often. Though it's hard to be sure how often it happens, as men would feel so belittled and embarassed that they could not report that happening, due to the ego. Plus, most men would happily consent to sex, anyway.

And as for these 50% of women who were surveyed said it's the woman's fault for being raped... shame on those few women who say that. But like that other poster said, not enough women were surveyed for it to be an accurate depiction of society as a whole.

It's absolutely ridiculous to say it's the victim's fault. Even if the woman was dressed in a very sexually enticing way, that in no way forces a guy to rape her. The man clearly has no self-control, and that is his fault.

Also, I believe dressing in a sexual manner is instinct--used to attract a mate for procreation. That, however, does not mean the woman is looking for sex with the guy who raped her, or even necessarily anyone at all that night or day. Afterall, we all like to look good when we go out.

Blaming a rape victim for being raped is like blaming a victim of an unprovoked murder for being murdered. This blaming of the victim is just used as an excuse, like I said.

One Love.

[edit on 17-2-2010 by Fangula]

Originally posted by novacs4me
I am not surprised at the poll results. I could take the same poll in my family at a multi-generational holiday gathering, and I would expect the same percentages. Would it be a derailment of the thread to ask if any of you think the women-ask-for-it attitude will ever go away? I don't believe it will. Wishing won't make it so. Name-calling won't make it so. Educating men and women on the true statistics about who does and doesn't get raped won't make it so. I don't think I am a pessimist. I think I am a realist.

The problem is that most of us do NOT advocate this idea of "well-she-was-asking-for-it". How is giving women advice on how to take precautions and encouraging them to draw less attention to themselves the same as saying victims of rape were asking for it?

If you haven't noticed, we don't live in a Fairytale World where all people are nice, friendly beings that only want to help and spread their love to others. There are bad people out there that will do bad things to people. This does not mean we have to live in a paranoid state, assuming the worst of everyone we encounter. But there are practical ways for people to take precautions for their own safety and these should be encouraged to ensure that our loved ones do not face harm of which they could have avoided.

[edit on 17/2/2010 by Dark Ghost]

Originally posted by Dark Ghost

Originally posted by novacs4me
I am not surprised at the poll results. I could take the same poll in my family at a multi-generational holiday gathering, and I would expect the same percentages. Would it be a derailment of the thread to ask if any of you think the women-ask-for-it attitude will ever go away? I don't believe it will. Wishing won't make it so. Name-calling won't make it so. Educating men and women on the true statistics about who does and doesn't get raped won't make it so. I don't think I am a pessimist. I think I am a realist.

The problem is that most of us do NOT advocate this idea of "well-she-was-asking-for-it". How is giving women advice on how to take precautions and encouraging them to draw less attention to themselves the same as saying victims of rape were asking for it?

If you haven't noticed, we don't live in a Fairytale World where all people are nice, friendly beings that only want to help and spread their love to others. There are bad people out there that will do bad things to people. This does not mean we have to live in a paranoid state, assuming the worst of everyone we encounter. But there are practical ways for people to take precautions for their own safety and these should be encouraged to ensure that our loved ones do not face harm of which they could have avoided.

[edit on 17/2/2010 by Dark Ghost]

Yes, but who is the 'us'? Just a bunch of ATS posters. And if you had read any of my past posts, you would know that I don't hold fairytale values, and have encouraged women to learn self defense.

Edit to add I do not mean 'just a bunch of ATS posters' in a negative way. I mean I do not believe we are representative of society.

[edit on 17-2-2010 by novacs4me]

[edit on 17-2-2010 by novacs4me]

Originally posted by novacs4me
Yes, but who is the 'us'? Just a bunch of ATS posters. And if you had read any of my past posts, you would know that I don't hold fairytale values, and have encouraged women to learn self defense.

Edit to add I do not mean 'just a bunch of ATS posters' in a negative way. I mean I do not believe we are representative of society.

Fair enough. I apologise for the "fairytale" remark and take it back. Women learning self-defence is a good idea and I agree.

I understand what you are saying about the "us". It is just irritating that certain members obviously have preconceived notions about other members and choose to associate them with ideas/reasoning that they did not even suggest. I guess it is to be expected in such a sensitive topic.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost

Originally posted by novacs4me
Yes, but who is the 'us'? Just a bunch of ATS posters. And if you had read any of my past posts, you would know that I don't hold fairytale values, and have encouraged women to learn self defense.

Edit to add I do not mean 'just a bunch of ATS posters' in a negative way. I mean I do not believe we are representative of society.

Fair enough. I apologise for the "fairytale" remark and take it back. Women learning self-defence is a good idea and I agree.

I understand what you are saying about the "us". It is just irritating that certain members obviously have preconceived notions about other members and choose to associate them with ideas/reasoning that they did not even suggest. I guess it is to be expected in such a sensitive topic.

No problem. This is why I love ATS! People here are for the most part really trying to discuss important topics in a civilized way.

Originally posted by Fangula
How could rape ever be the fault of the victim? By comparison, that's like saying that it's a homosexual's fault for being a victim of a hate crime.

Placing the blame on the victim is just a tactic used by sleazy attorneys in court. By the way, that is a very small percentage of women who actually report rape to the police. I know someone who was raped, and she has told me that she never told her parents or the police, because of the shame it brought her. Rape is definitely a horrible crime.

I do, however, agree that some women (not many) fraudulently report that they've been raped by someone they know... to get revenge. That, in my opinion, is just as terrible as rape itself. I'm not sure how rape cases are proven or disproven, but it seems like it would be fairly easy for a woman to easily get someone who did not rape her imprisoned. That's me speculating, but what exactly would she have to prove other than she was with the guy at the time she says he raped her? Anyone know any more about this which you could fill me in on?

A police officer posted this earlier:

Originally posted by rcwj1975
Yes we DO charge for false claims, BUT the kick in the nuts to the men is its only a misdemeanor charge to the women. That means USUALLY a fine, court costs, and a year probation. Laws need changing IMO!!!

Some have followed through with rape kits and then it was found to be a false claim. Obviously when the nurse/doc come tell use there are NO signs of force that is when the heat is turned up on her. I will say asking some of the fakes to submit to a rape kit is funny because they will sit there and come up with UNBELIEVABLE reasons as to why they can't have it done or go through with it. Then of course the truth comes out and thats that.

After a few years deaing with it, you learn to see the signs of women who truly have been raped or abused, to those who are looking to use it as a way to cover up. Trust me, a REAL rape victim has indicators that CANNOT be faked...

By the sounds of it it's rare for fake rapes to get convictions.. I mean it's rare for any rape to get convicted (1% apparently) as I think there needs to be signs of force like vaginal tearing, bruises etc. I agree a rape allegation could potentially destroy a man's life convicted or not but thats another topic.

As for men being raped by women, I really doubt this happens very often. Though it's hard to be sure how often it happens, as men would feel so belittled and embarassed that they could not report that happening, due to the ego. Plus, most men would happily consent to sex, anyway.

Apparently it's possible. I guess a woman could sodomise a man with objects.. or drug him and have intercourse. Man on man rape would happen more and I have heared stories of even hetero men having their drink spiked and being sodomised. I imagine that would be reported even less that female victim rapes (I wonder if people would accuse these men of asking for it like they do with women).

And as for these 50% of women who were surveyed said it's the woman's fault for being raped... shame on those few women who say that. But like that other poster said, not enough women were surveyed for it to be an accurate depiction of society as a whole.

It seems the age group asked were teenage to early twenties.. I think its a shame the school system isn't bothering to educate young women on this issue as they are the most vulnerable. If they think not wearing a mini skirt will protect them from rape they'll be walking through life oblivious to real dangers of rape.

It's absolutely ridiculous to say it's the victim's fault. Even if the woman was dressed in a very sexually enticing way, that in no way forces a guy to rape her. The man clearly has no self-control, and that is his fault.

Also, I believe dressing in a sexual manner is instinct--used to attract a mate for procreation. That, however, does not mean the woman is looking for sex with the guy who raped her, or even necessarily anyone at all that night or day. Afterall, we all like to look good when we go out.

I have been thinking about this.. we all have many facets of ourselves we can express. I like to be elegant and girly sometimes.. like that jessica alba pic that was posted. It's natural to want to look certain ways. Sometimes I like to wear jeans with holes in them and old t-shirts. I think clothing has much more to do with communcation and self expression than it does sex. For people to think women wear short dresses purely to get layed devalues the complexities of her as a human being and reduces her to a fickle moron who's self worth is only sustained by male attention.

Blaming a rape victim for being raped is like blaming a victim of an unprovoked murder for being murdered. This blaming of the victim is just used as an excuse, like I said.

One Love.

Amen.

[edit on 17-2-2010 by riley]

Are you seriously trying to say that NO rapes are avoidable

reply to post by nerbot


Avoidable is different than being responsible for committing the act.

I can avoid drowning if I stay out of the water. But what fun is that?

reply to post by riley


I really liked your last post, riley. And I tend to agree with most of which you said. I hope more replies can follow your lead.