Is teaching religion child abuse?

reply to post by DeathShield


You got it! God wants us to love Him and draw close to Him.He could
force us,but He won't.We are given choices,to love and obey,or go
our own way.
A lot of people are not aware of the true meaning of fearing God...
Fear of God is to be in awe and reverent to Him.

reply to post by mamabeth


I'm sure we can go on for a long time on the atheist vs religion debate, but sticking to the topic I think it's fairly straightforward to express the fears atheists have for children in a manner that some of the religious folk may relate to.

For a christian I'd ask you to imagine the concern you would have for children who are brought up into satanism. I imagine you'd be concerned for their souls, their actions in the future, and their views on morality. An atheist would be concerned for their mental stability, their actions in the future, and their views on morality. Very similar wouldn't you say?

I imagine too that a christian would be concerned about most other religions and or cults preached to their children, from islam to confuscianism to paganism, an atheist merely expresses this same concern but goes one religion further.

I am an atheist and I've known some atheists who would like to see religious teaching banned and such, however there is a strong stream of atheists who have no problem with religion being taught, especially when children are taught about all major world religions. They only generally have a problem with religion being taught as fact.

Of course unlike cults or religions it's very difficult to generalise atheist views as the only thing we share is that none of us worship a deity, we are all very skeptical and critical of one another just as we are with religions.

reply to post by DeathShield

Edit number 1: I'm sorry if i come off as emotionally charged on this, it's just every single time faith is brought up i have to go into these unnecessary long winded diatribes about how to properly construct an argument or why i can not give a definite answer and usually end up receiving character assassinations and other ad hominem why simultaneously combatting blanket generalizations that do not apply to me or other people i know. Edit number 2: Do you ever get tired of hearing people say " well since atheists do not believe in god they have no moral compass" and then trying to explain to people why atheism does not equate to a lack or morality or ethics?

Well, thank you for the smack down and I will give you a star for obviously being a more proficient debater than myself and rightly accept your crtitcism as just lol.


I agree and understand where you are coming from in your edits especially in relation to generalizations.

In some respects it can be difficult not to generalize and perhaps the discussion topic does not help " is teaching children religion child abuse?" as we're somewhat generalizing to begin with as we are not specific as to how religion is defined or which religion.

Even if we're specific as to which religion we then encounter the problem of which elements of the religion and the very varied proponents.

Perhaps it would have been better to have been more specific and asked something like " Is teaching children to believe that the bibles are the true word of a god described in it's pages and the child should be compelled to live/ believe according to these texts" ?

I disagree (obviously lol) that I fear being wrong I don't actually, It doesn't really bother me. To be honest though, you may have observed in my posts that I endeavor to not put myself in a position where I may run the risk of being wrong in that I avoid where possible making any claims, and I am aware that gets under some peoples skin.

I don't see this as intellectual fraud or rhetorical cowardice but being open to possibilities and demanding both sides continue to question in depth.

As far as knowing there is no god, I can only say that I can no more know that there is no god as much as I can know that there are no leprechauns . Unfortunately in these type of debates, the opposition (generally lol) not only knows absolutely that there is a god but they also know absolutely that it is "their" god, whichever that may be.

reply to post by mamabeth

You got it! God wants us to love Him and draw close to Him.He could force us,but He won't.We are given choices,to love and obey,or go our own way.

Come on now M kind of miss representing Yahwhejesus there aren't we ?

Love and obey or be tortured for all eternity more correct no ?

Originally posted by moocowman
Come on now M kind of miss representing Yahwhejesus there aren't we ?

Love and obey or be tortured for all eternity more correct no ?

no. that's rubbish written by some power hungry priest in the middle ages. there are actually a few threads on ATS talking about this nutjob christian gibberish, search for something like "hell isn't real" if you're interested.

fair enough, it's a christian teaching but it's not jesus' teaching, as you suggest.

[edit on 6/1/10 by pieman]

reply to post by moocowman


We will suffer the consequences of our actions or inaction.We still have
a choice.

reply to post by pieman

fair enough, it's a christian teaching but it's not jesus' teaching, as you suggest.

Hey don't shoot the messenger , ( just couldn't help myself there you do walk into them Pieman)

Originally posted by mamabeth
reply to post by moocowman

 

We will suffer the consequences of our actions or inaction.We still have
a choice.

If we suffer for doing something then the suffering is a punishment which implies rule breaking no ?

Originally posted by moocowman

Originally posted by mamabeth
reply to post by moocowman

 

We will suffer the consequences of our actions or inaction.We still have
a choice.

If we suffer for doing something then the suffering is a punishment which implies rule breaking no ?

YOU ARE RIGHT!!!!!I said it,are you happy now?
You win this battle,but not the war!

No teaching children about God is not child abuse. Beating them with a bat or board or buring them with a cigerette is. Locking them in a closet, denying them food, warmth or clothing. Forcing them into adult sexual practices or making them do hard labor and have no friends or deny them access to others. This is abuses.

All cultures around the world teach their offspring their ways, Native Americans, Africans, Indigenous peoples around the world, Muslim, Jewish, Christian,etc.

Children have always been taught as their family believes, some continue the beliefs handed down others do not.

Society today wants to force our children to learn tolerance by teaching homosexuality at an early age, thus denying them the right to remain innocent children until they are old enough to truly digest the whole sex thing. This is abuse by society and yet promoted and accepted.

Sexualizing our children early for the sick gratification of adults is abusive, yet you want us to think that religion, in all of its varied forms, is abusive. So we should remove the first Amendment from the Constitution.

yes there are some human people who use their religion to do harm or oppress others, some use politics and some use money.

But let us define what abuse is or we can say anything is abuses. Countries that have ratified the UN Rights of the Child Treaty believe that only the Governments can name children as some names may cause them harm. They can be abused because they gain to much weight, not enough weight, have long hair, wear the wrong clothes.

The list is endless as to what we can claim if we all have an opinion. But we are a Republic and we are governed by rule of law and the law needs to be clear in what constitues abuses, and religion is not abuses as it would remove it from being a freedom.

If religion is abuses then you must also consider atheism as one also, it is the belief in man as the ultimate ruler, and as everyone can see that is scarier then a merciful God.

Yes, as Religion is 'Mans' attempt to reach out to God in a desire to regain 'Paradise Lost' that started upon being cast out of the Garden. However, Christianity is an 'Individual Relationship' between Man & God through the Sacrifice made by Jesus Christ which needs NO MEDIATOR as most 'Religions' insist, giving THEM CONTROL OVER Your Life Physically & Spiritually. Christ was the 'Perfect Sacrifice' once & for All as He was Perfect unlike animals. His Sacrifice removes the 'Barrier of Sin' which separates Mankind from God. As Man is Not Perfect (as Christ does NOT bestow Perfection just Forgiveness) he must renew his status from time to time for forgiveness but can NEVER LOSE HIS SALVATION. Mans Religion can NEVER ACCOMPLISH THIS!!! At best if the Religion teaches from un-altered Scripture Man may be able to Attain Salvation. Here lies the 'Rub' with Most Parents in that THEY HAVE NO PROPER TRAINING with which to Inculcate their Own Children. As Christ went 'ONE ON ONE' in His teaching, we too should be teaching our Children. And your Lucky if you can find a Parent who spends a half hour a day of Quality Time with their children!!! So, pretty much, anyway you look at it, you could consider teaching 'Religion' as 'Abuse"!!! John

reply to post by moocowman


Again, what makes you so sure that god is going to torture you or anyone for that matter? Even if you spend your whole life denying god and actively campaigning against him or it, you could still receive posthumous forgiveness. This is why i think there will be bhuddists, hindus, atheists, agnostics, muslims and even pagans and satanists. I believe you are making the error in that the bible was claimed by god to be his official word. There is absolutely no way of proving this without speaking to god himself, which is why people are told by the human leaders of their religions to have "faith" in "gods word." Quite frankly any reasonable christian muslim or jew will tell you that. This was the reason i left the church, i noticed a growing trend of hateful sentiment towards people of all faiths and skin colors masqueraded as scripture. The Clergy were not teaching the bible. They were teaching politics and attempting to exercise control over society. I don't know who this asshole that you are claiming to be god is, but the god i worship is far more reasonable and forgiving than most atheists, christians, jews or muslims make him out to be. My reasoning for this? Well if I am capable of understanding things in these manners then i could safely assume god is as well. The bible is the worst thing to happen to peoples understanding of god i think.

Originally posted by mamabeth
You got it! God wants us to love Him and draw close to Him.He could
force us,but He won't.We are given choices,to love and obey,or go
our own way.
A lot of people are not aware of the true meaning of fearing God...
Fear of God is to be in awe and reverent to Him.

How do you practically build a closer relationship with your God?

Can you not do it through seeking greater understanding and thus appreciation for this universe that is filled with creation and still creating and re-creating itself?

Can we not worship God by seeking to understand as much as possible and valuing and pursuing knowledge?

This is literally what the Gnostics believed. I don't want some answer from scripture because someone can validate virtually any opinion by twisting some part of some scripture one way or another. But just think honestly. Who really gains and who really loses when you educate yourself? Really? What is wrong inherently about learning as much as you can?

And also loving as much as you can. But sharing love equally for all of God's creation means also knowing as much as you can, equally, for all of creation. Because you naturally care about the things you really feel love towards, and seek to understand the "inner life" of people you love.

[edit on 7-1-2010 by bsbray11]

Children are not able to comprehend anything on their own. They are impressionable, naive, and ignorant because they have not entered adulthood and the responsibilities with adulthood.

If a parent wants to "force" their child to go to church, fine. They are the parent and church does not physically harm a child. It is not up to a child to keep an open mind because they do not understand what an open mind means nor do they understand the consequences.

Children do not know what they want. They need to be parented. I guess we shouldn't feed our kids broccoli either because they don't want it and the thought is "mentally scarring". Catering to a child to be "fair" is foolish. Church helps teach morals and builds a good foundation for children to better respect their parents.

reply to post by fbnks

If a parent wants to "force" their child to go to church, fine. They are the parent and church does not physically harm a child. It is not up to a child to keep an open mind because they do not understand what an open mind means nor do they understand the consequences.

I beg to differ.

Perhaps "forcing" a child to go to church do not physically harm him or her. But it does plenty of psychological damage.

It is my experience. Perhaps my deafness has a part in it. No matter. I have told my parents over and over again that I did not want to go to church. I have plenty of stories to tell. But I can tell you that my experience was not good.

Children do not know what they want.

HA HA HA!!!

Yes they do!

I never wanted to go to church! I never wanted to be a part of Christianity! That I KNEW what I wanted!

Church helps teach morals and builds a good foundation for children to better respect their parents.

So is the church the only place where you can teach kids morals?

Children are incapable of understanding what they want. It's sugar, no bed time, cookies for dinner. That's ridiculous.

Children need to be parented constantly and do what they are told. Children should not raise themselves. Saying church is psychologically damaging is silly. A child is not hurt learning about right and wrong, community, and treating people with respect. Church and home go hand in hand in building moral understanding.

It comes down to two things - the parent being in charge or the child. My impression from a lot of these posts is that children shoyld be in charge. Clearly that is wrong.

Originally posted by fbnks
Children need to be parented constantly and do what they are told. Children should not raise themselves. Saying church is psychologically damaging is silly. A child is not hurt learning about right and wrong, community, and treating people with respect. Church and home go hand in hand in building moral understanding.

Church is not the only place morality can be learned, as has been repeated over and over.

To learn morality, you don't need to learn that there's a devil and he's going to send you to hell and all the other damaging nonsense they program you all with from an early age. It's no different than the Nazi Youth and a Nazi would surely defend such a program, especially if they had already been through a Nazi Youth program themselves. It is brainwashing, pure and simple.

Muslims do the same thing in the Middle-East for the same reasons. And I'm sure they would tell you that they are simply teaching their kids Islam so they will know "right from wrong" and all the other BS too.

It comes down to two things - the parent being in charge or the child. My impression from a lot of these posts is that children shoyld be in charge. Clearly that is wrong.

Children are impressionable yet they are very intelligent on their own. They learn more, and more rapidly, than we do as full grown adults.

Church is for religion, not morals. Taking your kids to church is indoctrinating them into your religion. If you want to risk brainwashing your child from you yourself being brainwashed over the course of your lifetime, obviously there is nothing I can do about that and it's very unfortunate, and I'm only glad that this trend has been on the decline in recent decades. But I still consider it very much legal psychological abuse.

reply to post by fbnks


So you are saying that some children (in my case as well) are not smart enough to see through the falsehood that the church teaches?

Would you say the same thing for children growing up in Muslim countries? How about children being reared up to be terrorists?

"Aaah. Those children don't know any better. Let the parents guide them! Those children better listen to the parents if the parents want them to grow up to be terrorists!"

See?

When I was a child, I knew what I wanted. I never wanted to believe what my parents believed in. Why do you have to include the sugar thing? Everyone wants sugar, children and adults alike. Quit comparing these things.

It comes down to two things - the parent being in charge or the child. My impression from a lot of these posts is that children shoyld be in charge. Clearly that is wrong.

So it is wrong for children to rebel against the parents when the parents want them to inflict pain on others? I wonder if you have seen the pictures of children wearing bombs?

Yes. Children MUST listen to the parents.

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It just Depends which "Religion" your teaching considering there are millions...