Riddle me this, Christians..

Originally posted by Ghost in the Machine
reply to post by spacecowgirl

 

Simply becuase the Bible does not cover that particular topic.

Actually it does...

Have a look at the biblical references on this chart by James A Fowler...

Union of Being
www.christinyou.net...

It is often missed because it is presupposed rather than being spelled out as teaching...
...and the Spirit of it is usually lost when groups solidify into organizations with doctrinal definitions.

]

[edit on 3/1/10 by troubleshooter]

any discussion of this nature really needs to re-examine what sin is, in the first place. some sin wasn't sin at all, just the breaking of local laws or customs. some sin wasn't defined clearly enough and was therefore abused locally or congregationally. once we isolate out what sin really is, the rest of the text takes on a different meaning.

according to paul, sin is only sin because the LAW points it out. in effect, the LAW is the ACCUSER. why is that? why is sin only sin if you think it's sin, and that primarily because the accuser told you it was sin? because the only thing separating us from Heaven is our consciences. the topic is then isolated down to what must a conscience mind think in order to not be separated from Heaven? the following premise pretty much nails it:

yeshua set an example with his life of how the conscience mind works. it has an internal set of parameters which are there regardless of place of birth, religion, race, gender, financial bracket and so on. when you go against those parameters, the LAW of your own conscience, accuses you. the war is entirely internal but others tend to want to make your battle, their battle. such interference is the ACCUSER on steroids.

yeshua's big work was to show us how to survive the accuser.

Originally posted by undo
any discussion of this nature really needs to re-examine what sin is, in the first place.

Sin was disobeying a direct instruction.

The immediate individual consequence was a sense of nakeness, guilt and alienation...
...which resulted in our separating ourselves from open communication with the Spirit who we were designed to have indwelling us...
...and who was to be an internal friend, resource and communication between all humanity.

The emptiness that results, men try to fill with obsessions and substances.

The 'natural man' is born in this state.

The Lord has resolved this separation through the Gospel...
...and restores this unity by the Spirit who now indwells all who 'hear His voice'.



[edit on 3/1/10 by troubleshooter]

reply to post by troubleshooter


everyone hears his voice because it is a fixed, internal construct.
that's the point.

reply to post by Ghost in the Machine


If I am offering you salvation, and I tell you that if you don't accept it you will not have it...who has salvation?
Who is saving me or you?
I have options, you have choices....who has?

Everyone forgets that the wolf dresses in the skin of the dead lamb. Same lamb on the outside, only actions determine the truth under the skin or if you get close enough, you can smell the dead flesh.

Why don't people see that counterfeit, is meant to be taken as the real bill? Looks authentic, feels authentic, only it's missing the security stripes and blue and red hairs mixed in with the paper.

The NT says paraphrasing, "if it were possible even the very elect would be fooled by what was coming over the earth"....not one christian thinks they fall into the fooled category....only they make up over a third of the worlds population...the same amount that is to be "Burnt".

"Repent" which means "re think" for the kingdom is at hand...is what Christ preached, not accept my murder for your death, but change and don't murder me..."Forgive them father for they don't know they are murdering themselves".... They just don't know who he is....each and every one of us are the "only begotten"....there will never be another you...or me, or anyone, therefore "love one another, as I have loved you"... No religion necessary, just love. That 's all.....

Spirit (Breath) and life (blood)....these are reality...these are truth...anything you can't deal with, isn't reality and God says "See the truth...it is not hidden"

In short, christ is the light of the world, not a religion. Everyone is him....when we see that....Kingdom Come.

Peace

Originally posted by Ghost in the Machine
reply to post by heyo

 

It shouldnt. Asking questions like these should only increase someones faith. As I've said before, I may be a Christian, But I refuse to just accept anything from the bible without it being supported by other teachings. I will not be someone to believe without searching deeper for more answers.

If that statement is true then you can't take the version of the Bible you have in your hand at face value. The Bible has been 'translated' Thousands of times, (more actually), into Thousands of languages and the 'English' version has multiple versions as well, NIV, American Standard, Scholfield, KJV, ect ect

If you want to know and understand the ACTUAL teachings of the Bible, brush up on your Greek and Hebrew

The old Testament was originally in Hebrew and the New Testament in Greek. To truly understand what was written you must understand the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek meanings of the words. (Which differ greatly from the English versions). The word LOVE in the bible had at least 10 different meanings.

The only way you'll understand any of it fully is to sit down with a Greek/Hebrew Concordance and basically translate each passage they way it was meant to be.

Otherwise, you're reading someone elses interpretation of the words and meanings.

reply to post by Ghost in the Machine


The answer can be summarized in one sentence that Jesus Christ said while in the cross. "Father forgive them for they do not know what they are doing."

Therefore we are ALL already saved.

Salvation from eternal damnation of our eternal soul is a grace from God, we are saved from it by His UNCONDITIONAL and UNSOLICITED SACRIFICE and not by our faith or own work. If we can achieve salvation by our faith and work then there will be no need for His sacrifice.

His teachings are only guidance so we may be saved from Hell here on earth, so we may be saved from our own ignorance. But our eternal souls are already saved.

God's love is unconditional

There are 3 types of love:
1) I love you "BECAUSE"
2) I love you "IF"
3) I love you "IN SPITE OF"

If God's love is Unconditional, his love will fall on the third type.

It is us or the churches that puts conditions, (i.e. you have to have faith, you need to be baptized). Our little brain cannot even fathom a kind of love that sets no conditions, we placed conditions because we want control.

There are no conditions for God's love.

Do not fear Hell in the after life, Hell is here on earth. Do not impose religion to other people, it cannot save them for they are already saved, for His sacrifice was UNSOLICITED and UNCONDITIONAL.

Instead follow the ONLY COMMANDMENT Jesus has given us. "This is my commandment, that you LOVE ONE ANOTHER."

cheers!

reply to post by Ghost in the Machine


Many Christians believe those who never hear the Gospel will get a chance after death.

The Bible presents a rather vague image of the afterlife. In some parts people are judged directly after death, in others they go to Hades of Sheol or some generic underworld. Hell, in other places in the Bible, actually references a big rubbish heap near where Jesus would have lived called Gehenna which also, at one time, was used for human sacrifices to Molech. Gehenna

Then there is Revelations which provides an entirely different account of how judgment and Heaven and Hell work. In Revelations all the dead and living are judged at the same time and sent to either the Lake of Fire or Heavenly City. Many Christians confuse this Heavenly City with the Heaven mentioned other places in the Bible and there is also much confusion between Hell as referenced in earlier places and the Lake of Fire mentioned in Revelations.

All of this adds up to the fact that the book is not clear. It's vague. I'd rather not put my soul in the hands of a religion that can't make up its mind about its own afterlife

Originally posted by Ghost in the Machine
While browsing through the bible recently I came across a question which I couldnt figure out.

What happens to those who have never heard of Christ?


Could it be that God has(yet again) made a mistake? If humans can be saved only after hearing about Jesus Christ, the multitudes which never had this chance during their lifetime would necessarily be damned to eternal suffering in hell? Or say that they are not damned to hell because they never got the chance, Would that, in some small way, make null the sacrifice of Christ?
[edit on 3-1-2010 by Ghost in the Machine]

in response I quote WCF on the Effectual Calling

All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased, in His appointed time, effectually to call, by His Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God, taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and, by His almighty power, determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ: yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace.

This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man,who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit, he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.

Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the laws of that religion they do profess. And to assert and maintain that they may, is very pernicious, and to be detested.


scripture:
ROM 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. EPH 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.

MAT 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
MAT 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. HEB 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come.

JOH 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. 66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

reply to post by Ghost in the Machine

What happens to those who have never heard of Christ?

If a person who has never heard of Christ lives his life to the best of his ability,He is doing works for salvation.Salvation is by grace. For by grace you have been saved through faith,and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. (EPH2:8)

(continuing my last post)
.
....In other words, God is Sovereign, He has chosen the ones who are saved and those who are reprobate. Even some that have heard of Christ will be reprobate. But those who never have, they are not justified, adopted or sanctified, by God's forordination.

You ask why would a Loving God create some people to burn for eternity? How cruels is that? and also that you would never worship a God like that... Well, suppose this God is real, what makes you think you have the power to choose anything?

Oh and the God of the bible is a "Loving God" but you have to understand the etymology of the word "LOVE" used in the original languages. The Greek word agapé is not unconditional love when read in context of the scripture. It is very conditional. This not not the love that means affection. (phileo) ... in fact agapé is walking after His commandments. Obedience.

reply to post by Ghost in the Machine


the LIGHT of GOD:
God is evidently displayed outside of self SCIENCE (what He created)
God is evidently displayed inside of self CONSCIENCE (your spirit/soul)

Follow the light more light will be given to you Seek and You shall Find

reply to post by undo


Excellent post! I want to add, Jesus also said, "Do not think that I will accuse you in front of Father, It is Moses that will."

reply to post by badmedia

I'm not a christian, but as I have experienced this I can answer the question.
Most Christians will quote John 14:6 to you, saying that only through Jesus can one find god.John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

That's not the question that the OP is asking.
The question is What happens to those who have never heard of Christ?

Ive already provided an answer, but would love to hear your view.

Originally posted by Ghost in the Machine
While browsing through the bible recently I came across a question which I couldnt figure out.

What happens to those who have never heard of Christ?


Could it be that God has(yet again) made a mistake? If humans can be saved only after hearing about Jesus Christ, the multitudes which never had this chance during their lifetime would necessarily be damned to eternal suffering in hell? Or say that they are not damned to hell because they never got the chance, Would that, in some small way, make null the sacrifice of Christ?

I leave the rest up to my fellow ATS-ers

Happy Posting

*edited for spelling*

[edit on 3-1-2010 by Ghost in the Machine]

Depends which lie you believe... Some say you're going to hell... original sin and all... others say heaven... what with infinite mercy...

as it's all bullsh1t neither is correct...

reply to post by Ghost in the Machine


this is easy for one that doesnt BROWSE the bible and actually read it--I would tell you but i really dont know where i read it in revelation exactly-but if ya read revelation you will find it---first i will tell you to start in the begining-not jump around like i first did-for you will learn faster. find somebody who really has done this and he will help---the johovah witness is my first choice--second to learn biblical prophacy the seventh day adventists would be my second choice-----remember the true church is when 2 or more worship in his name---that means learning and applying-wich i fail at most of the time but i keep trying

reply to post by boniknik


yeah, people always wonder why, when they leave the whole "you're a sinner, now get it right!" crowd, they suddenly feel alot better, more optimistic, more interested in conversing with God and overall, a happier individual. it's not that being aware of your sin is a bad thing in the sense of refinement of the final product, as long as it is you doing the refining. the problem is that it creates its own set of depressing issues, mostly related to being harsh towards others, second guessing God, or trying to, and generally being a nuisance to those you love and feel you must must must correct.

reply to post by Ghost in the Machine



Well, most sects of Christianity, particularly the JW's, say that they will "go to hell." They claim that even people like Job and Moses will find themselves in "hell," or as JW's refer to it, "eternal death." :shk:


[edit on 3-1-2010 by SpeakerofTruth]

Lot's of people haven't heard of 'religion' or any type of God; because they are too busy having a life full of joy, happiness, wonder and excitement.

Those people who haven't been exposed to the religious disease are far healthier, both physically and mentally than those who have.

All of you quoting bible scripture do know that the bible is a bastardisation don't you? As in, it's total BUNK? Edited and changed so much, that the person who wrote the original fiction novel that it was would never recognise it!

It's like arguing between yourselves about which pair of identical black socks to wear. Irrelevant, and pointless.

Parallex.

Good question...


Originally posted by Ghost in the Machine

"What happens to those who have never heard of Christ?"





And here is an answer:
www.gotquestions.org...


There are several good answers to other tough questions like these on this particular website if you're interested.