Riddle me this, Christians..

This is the hold over from when the Roman emp.....Roman Catholic church had power.

Salvation via fear.

Jesus never taught like that.

I've said it once and I'll say it again.

If you take the mystical/allegories from the old testament, the red letters from jesus from the new and put them in one book, you would have a fine book. (Dont forget the bad old apocrypha)

Take the history from both and put that in another, its good for history...not worship.

The rest (i.e. peter and pauls letters) would make fine liners for bird cages.

The bible was created by the church for the church to create "boogie" men to scare fools and children.

Mother Teresa had it right I believe. She was probably the most Christlike person in the last 100 years (that I know of). She didnt care about religion. She cared about the mind, body, and soul. I doubt she ever told a hindu that they would go to hell because they "didnt accept jesus".

She did what jesus did. She was an example. Good works with good intentions. Helping to make good people better and lost folks see their mistakes. What better example of faith is that, be it christian or pagan?

reply to post by Ghost in the Machine


I believe the reason some people have not come to see the way of Christ is because they really don't have personal relationship with him in the spiritual realm.

It is my belief that it is not the wish of the Creator to lose any of his children in the end. I don't know how it will happen, but I firmly believe that all will be given the chance to see Christ and see that he is real and then they will be able to make their choice as to which neighborhood they want to spend eternity, They will be without excuse as Christ will reveal the truth and the way to all.

And the more we show the love, mercy, peace, and forgiveness of the Lord to each other, the more we show Christ in us. Let us shine before the world as his followers. We MUST keep the commandments and do as Jesus told us, "Love the Lord God with all our heart, soul, mind and body and love one another as we love ourselves. It really isn't that hard. We make it difficult.

That's my two cents anyway.


Love and Peace to all,
Grandma

reply to post by Ghost in the Machine


Actually, the "Baptism of the Dead" is neither in the Book of Mormon, nor the Bible. In fact, the Book of Mormon itself (Which is a wonderful read [especially if you don't believe in Mormonism]) says quite plainly in the two verses below that once one dies in sin, there is no possibility for a man to be brought out of bondage to the evil one.

"For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he does seal you his. Therefore, the spirit of the Lord has withdrawn from you and hath no place in you; the power of the devil is over you, and this is the final state of the wicked."

Alma 34:35-36

Don't blame the book (especially if you haven't read it). Blame the ignorance of the interpretation (of the Mormon church).

-=-=-

Now, in response to the topic at hand, I'd like to commend you for your earlier response reproduced below, for, in my humble opinion, hitting the nail right on the head.

I came to the same conclusion you did as well... Untill I read Romans 1:20 and Ecclesiastes 3:11. Add those two quotes to the equation and it changes the outcome of the conclusion.

If one does not know Christ, nor of His laws, one is not bound by them, but by the laws set by their own minds. Of course, once one is made aware, one cannot revert to ignorance.

(Edit for Clarification purposes)

[edit on 3-1-2010 by Epsilon5]

reply to post by LASTofTheV8s

Hey, OP. This guy gave you the answer. That's all there is to it. If it isn't what you wanted to hear, or if you didn't understand it, or if it didn't create an argument, that's your problem OP. But, seriously, thanks for creating another psycho-anti-Christian thread! Here's a tip: You might want to leave stuff like this to the "Smart" Anti-Christians.

Unfortunately we do not all grow at the same spiritual pace, Unlike you who is the keeper of all knowledge in the universe right?

The point of this site/thread is to work together to find our own paths, Not to talk down to fellow searchers.

Ignorence must be bliss for you. And again genius, If you had read the thread Im not an "anti-Christian"

[edit on 3-1-2010 by Ghost in the Machine]

reply to post by Epsilon5


Oh, I think you misunderstood me. I have nothing against the Mormons. Especially since I was raised in a LDS family and (in my own opinion) have quite a good knowledge of the BoM.

Though you were right about baptism for the dead. I had no idea there was any reference to it in the Bible.

reply to post by Ghost in the Machine


yes ignorance is a great machine, as long as you are operating it or at a safe distance from it.

i am an ignorant machine operator and i am self certified.

about the other part though... yes you can lead a good life without knowing of God or Christ or the Bible... no you cannot exalt yourself (that's not the way it works at all) above God ...

1) everything you do projects your beliefs
2) you do not need to know the truth about anything you believe in to project your belief through your actions
3) the more you know about your belief, however big or small or whatever it may be concerning, the easier it will be to project through your actions and the easier it will be for others to reflect

if you don't ask you will not get an answer

[edit on 4-1-2010 by notsympl]

OP, the answers you seek are here www.abovetopsecret.com...

All will get a second chance after death.

Reply to Grandma "We MUST keep the commandments ": we can't, only Jesus could. If we must get salvation by keeping the commandments, we are all doomed. In reply to the Book of Mormon posts above, the Book of Mormon specifically denies baptism for the dead in cases of little children or those that are without the law in Moroni 8:

18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from ball eternity to all eternity. 19 Little children cannot repent; wherefore, it is awful wickedness to deny the pure mercies of God unto them, for they are all alive in him because of his mercy. 20 And he that saith that little children need baptism denieth the mercies of Christ, and setteth at naught the atonement of him and the power of his redemption. 21 Wo unto such, for they are in danger of death, hell, and an endless torment. I speak it boldly; God hath commanded me. Listen unto them and give heed, or they stand against you at the judgment-seat of Christ. 22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing— 23 But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.


[edit on 1/4/2010 by Jim Scott]

Originally posted by Parallex
Lot's of people haven't heard of 'religion' or any type of God; because they are too busy having a life full of joy, happiness, wonder and excitement.

Not intending to derail the thread or anything, as a lot of great posts are here with some very good insight.

But this post here needs some skepticism.

What world is this you speak of with all these sooo joyful, happy, wonderful and exited people?

It's not Earth.

Here on Earth most people are jerks, and are pissed off all the time.

Just saying, your point of view is very very blind to the harsh reality. Take those blinders off!

reply to post by muzzleflash


Partyl correct. Though I think you doubt the amount of happy people in the world now. Nigeria is the happiest country in the world, and they hold a pretty high population. I remember a survey on it. Heres the results.

Matthew 27: 51-53 comes to my mind.

Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

www.biblegateway.com...

These saints may have died before Jesus started his ministry. They got a second chance without even knowing him. What force made them come back to life?

I believe the Holy Spirit did an emergency exit out of Jesus when he died. It seemed to have discharged through the earth and awoke some worthy people in their graves.

This Holy Spirit and your own spirit (your motivations) make the decision.


[edit on 4-1-2010 by lostinspace]

reply to post by Ghost in the Machine

Your post is a common argument and has two aspects to it so it might be a long post, but the argument is simply based on a few myths that have come about to due to lack of information.

The first common myth is that a person that's never heard of Jesus will automatically suffer in Hell. Actually the NT tells us those that have never heard of Jesus will instead be judged by their own moral laws or codes then in that case and that God has revealed himself to us through nature and our own hearts (our own feelings of guilt and such).

I leave the looking up of that on Google to you, because my post will already be long, but there is scripture to support that. There are sections of the Bible that explain this and why they should go out spreading the Gospel and they actually cover this very question right in the Bible.

The next step is to understand who Jesus was talking to. Jesus was talking to the Jewish people and telling them following their own moral code (which had become even more complex over the years when God told them not to add or subtract a single word from it) was never going to get them into Heaven, because it was so complex, that if they were ever judged by it, it would result in death for all of them. A much easier way is to believe in Jesus first so they can be forgiven when they mess up.

It's not unlike our own legal system where we have so many complex laws it is estimated that the average "law abiding citizen" actually breaks up to one law a day. Jesus was saying you'll never make it. Just believe in me instead and let my teachings and the Holy Spirit guide your heart from then on.


So why go around teaching people about Jesus? Well, do you really want to be judged by your own moral code? You'd be making the same mistake that the Jewish people that Jesus was talking to was making. Think about what it is? Write down your own list of what you think the 10 commandments should be. Write down 10 rules that you would give to a child to tell them how to live their life. Then go down the list and you'll see you've probably broke one or more of them at one point in your life. I've never met a person that's actually passed this test. It's much easier to get into Heaven by believing in Jesus than it is to pass your own moral code. It's not impossible, but why bother? Just believe in Jesus.

And if someone has broken one of their own laws, and Jesus wasn't real, then how do you fix it? When it comes time for god to judge you what do you do? Get punished for some mistake you made ages ago? One mistake and you're out? We don't believe in forgiveness anymore? Jesus provides grace and forgiveness which the law did not.

But Hell is for those that have had the truth revealed to them and choose to reject it anyway and so choose to be judged by the law. Not for those that have never been given the chance to hear it and have never been given a choice.

The second aspect is the unfairness argument. Isn't it unfair that God would send one to Hell for rejecting him? Well, the purpose of the argument is to be subversive and try to make people stop believing in God by showing he's unfair somehow. It's a common atheist argument.

However, the flaw in logic is, you can't prove God isn't real by proving he his unfair. He may very well exist and simply be a jerk, but more importantly let me explain why the unfairness argument doesn't really tell us anything.

What if you worshiped Jesus all your life only to find out he wasn't real and you were worshiping a false god and not the real God? What happens? Do you go to Hell then if the Islamic god was the right one? Or the greek god Zeus was the right one?

Let's assume that you do, what does that mean? That means that whoever the real god was, he was just as unfair as the Christian god was wasn't he? Not only does the Christian god send you to Hell if you don't believe in it, apparently all the other gods do the same thing!! So, it doesn't sound like any of them are fair are they?

But let's assume there is a fair god. Let's assume that when you get to Heaven and you find out you were worshiping the wrong god the fair god says, you know what? It happens all the time. It's not your fault, you had it wrong, but oh well. Come on in anyway brother!

Okay, if that's the case then the Christian god would be wrong, but the correct god would let you in anyway so it wouldn't even matter. So, in that case your best bet would still be to stick with Christianity. Why?

Because in Christianity god has made it really easy on us and all you have to do is believe in Jesus and try to be like him even if you fail it. One of the easiest religious ever. And to top it off, if your god turns out not to be real, the fair god will let you into Heaven anyway, you can't lose right?

But if the Christian god is real your bases are still covered right? The only time it becomes a problem though, is if all the other gods are just as unfair as the Christian god, but very few of them have provided an easy out like the Christian god has. Sounds to me like the Christian god is one of the fairest of all actually.

[edit on 4-1-2010 by tinfoilman]

in the bible the devil is suppose to pretend to be the prophet jesus and tell us to follow him and we think it's jesus then we go to hell for following who we thought was jesus.

but in the bible it also says jesus with come again and lead us to heaven and if we don't go with him then we'll be sent to hell.

which one should i follow?! the guy that claims he's jesus and to follow him or the guy that claims he's jesus and to follow him??

Off Topic-

I've just watched changeling. It was absolutely amazing!

reply to post by lostinspace


Before those people rose from the grave they were in a place called abrahams bosom.
They were still alive but only in the spiritual sense. I am of the understanding that they could understand and see what was going on, so they probably already knew who Jesus was.

reply to post by Ghost in the Machine



God is not messed up like our laws are, which say ignorance of the law is no excuse.

YHVH knows who knows what and those folks will be judged accordingly.

Judgment day ISN'T until the END of the millenium, and the millenium in question STARTS when Christ shows up....so at the end of that thousand year period, then He will judge...but in the mean time....those in darkness will be schooled by those who are already saved, in the hopes of saving as many as possible...for they are our lost brothers and sisters in darkness.

funny how they never say anything like this on the teevee......

reply to post by ohsnaptruth


Two things for you to remember.

1. When Christ [the real one] comes back for the 2nd, Advent [coming], He will be coming with a SHOUT the sound of the TRUMPET and ANGELS singing all around him and he will be glorified and coming on the clouds for ALL to see. From the east to the west. Everyone will hear and see his return. There will be no doubt this is Christ.

2. You should have a personal relationship with the Father. Call it prayer time, meditition time, whatever as long as you are connected with His spirit with your spirit. The Holy Spirit will help us and give us wisdom as to what is real and what we need to do at that time. But first you must have this type of spiritual relationship.

Find the light in the darkness and become the light in the darkness to show others the way.


Shalom,
Grandma

Christians have many magical get god out of jail free cards that they pull out every time their logic breaks down. Their excuses are all over the place.

But what none of them has ever been able to answer is, if their god is real and the only god there is, why did he not reveal himself to everyone on earth?
Instead we have a different religion from every region of the planet.

I wonder why that is, lol.

Great straw made you made there...

The Bible doesn't say you go to hell because you never heard of Jesus, you go there because of your sin. We have all been pre-programmed to know right from wrong, and yet we do what we know is wrong on a regular basis.

Also, isn't it a bit presumptuous on your part to assume that a person that has never heard of Christ's redemptive work, would accept it whole heartedly had they been informed? You obviously have heard, and yet you still reject it.

I thought I would contribute this link to the discussion, as I think it is a great example of how 'they' explain this kind of thing:

www.tbm.org...

rev.18''24

expounding on prior post.