Riddle me this, Christians..

While browsing through the bible recently I came across a question which I couldnt figure out.


What happens to those who have never heard of Christ?


Could it be that God has(yet again) made a mistake? If humans can be saved only after hearing about Jesus Christ, the multitudes which never had this chance during their lifetime would necessarily be damned to eternal suffering in hell? Or say that they are not damned to hell because they never got the chance, Would that, in some small way, make null the sacrifice of Christ?

I leave the rest up to my fellow ATS-ers

Happy Posting


*edited for spelling*

[edit on 3-1-2010 by Ghost in the Machine]

people who know nothing of the knowledge pertaining the knowledge of the experiences of "christ" are told in the bible to keep what they have, not build uppon what they do.

Why keep this so myopic?

What about those who haven't heard allahs will?

Or for the fun of it, Zeus' will (sorry zeus...)

"God" as you've put it, didn't make a mistake, just as a bike didn't make a mistake, the rider or designer made the mistake.

In this example though, the bike maker, didn't really account for the future, and well a mongoose bike isn't really a all terrain bike, (although close), the bike will fail it quite a few ways, but then again the designer isn't perfect in making it.

God couldn't of made a mistake, it's like santa making a mistake....savvy?

Those who believe, and feel the need to show it again and recite all kinds of crazy mumbo jumbo mantras, just incase the guy is reading these posts knows it, are stupid, and will do mental gymnastics to fill in gaps, just as commonly seen in cults....... the person instead of hurting their ego, and admitting their wrong, or that their devotion is so strong, will start disproving reality to prove their delusions, so that they can keep their mentality safe, although it's already damaged, and apparently beyond repair.

That's why the LDS church does those wacky "Baptisms for the Dead". That way those who have never heard of Christ, can still have the opportunity to go to heaven.

Originally posted by Ghost in the Machine

What happens to those who have never heard of Christ?

There is no such person...

John explains it like this...
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men... that was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not." John 1:1-10

So the Word that John identifies as the Lord who became Jesus and the Christ (Messiah)...
...is the light that is the life of every man...
...and although this is not available to Gnosis (conscious knowledge) in the natural man...
...each person is known by and responds to or rejects the Spirit.

So through the Spirit, Christ is 'heard' by every man...
...even though a person may never have heard His name.



[edit on 3/1/10 by troubleshooter]

reply to post by Republican08


brilliant, But you didnt give your insight. And for the whole "God" thing, I thought if I had christians in the title people would obviously know that I was referring to the Christian God.

How about "I don't know"?
Is not knowing what happens to other people supposed to make a christian question their faith?

reply to post by troubleshooter


I came to the same conclusion you did as well... Untill I read Romans 1:20 and Ecclesiastes 3:11. Add those two quotes to the equation and it changes the outcome of the conclusion.

reply to post by Gando702


I am aware of the workings of the Mormon Church. But the whole baptism for the dead thing is in the Book of Mormon, Not the Holy Bible.

reply to post by heyo


It shouldnt. Asking questions like these should only increase someones faith. As I've said before, I may be a Christian, But I refuse to just accept anything from the bible without it being supported by other teachings. I will not be someone to believe without searching deeper for more answers.

I'm not a christian, but as I have experienced this I can answer the question.

Most Christians will quote John 14:6 to you, saying that only through Jesus can one find god.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

But, take a deeper look at the statement and what Jesus is saying there. He defines himself before the colon as the "way, the truth, and the life". What he is saying there is not by "Jesus", but instead, that only by the way, the truth and the life can one come across the father.

Proof of this, and the answer to your question is found later on in John 14.

John 14

24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

See, right there - those who do not love him and do not keep his sayings do not hear him - as your question asks, but they will instead hear the father(god) that sent him. And then after that point, the holy ghost will teach you and give you understanding(not to be confused with someone who reads the bible to you).

Knowledge of the holy is understanding(Proverbs 9). So, it's like math. Did you accept and repeat 1+1=2, or do you understand why 1+1=2? It's not about remembering or repeating the bible, but understanding it and what it means that is important.

As Einstien said - any fool can know, the point is to understand. A statement that echo's proverbs.

Proverbs 9

1Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:

2She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table.

3She hath sent forth her maidens: she crieth upon the highest places of the city,

4Whoso is simple, let him turn in hither: as for him that wanteth understanding, she saith to him,

5Come, eat of my bread, and drink of the wine which I have mingled.

6 Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.

7He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot.

8Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.

9Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.

10The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

Btw, in the "last super", the above quote is what Jesus is representing. Check out the bottom half of Proverbs 9 that I didn't quote. It talks about stolen waters. People who repeat things but don't understand are those who have stolen waters. The same as someone who repeats 1+1=2 and doesn't understanding math has "stolen" that expression.

Proverbs 9

13A foolish woman is clamorous: she is simple, and knoweth nothing.

14For she sitteth at the door of her house, on a seat in the high places of the city,

15To call passengers who go right on their ways:

16Whoso is simple, let him turn in hither: and as for him that wanteth understanding, she saith to him,

17Stolen waters are sweet, and bread eaten in secret is pleasant.

18But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.

Words are dead, the understanding behind them is not. People are blinded from the understanding by the literal. Don't make the same mistake, and the errors of others will never make you right.

Originally posted by Ghost in the Machine
reply to post by Republican08

 

brilliant, But you didnt give your insight. And for the whole "God" thing, I thought if I had christians in the title people would obviously know that I was referring to the Christian God.

My apowagizes!

My insight, well as of my apostasy from republican in the latter, and the former religion, and the belief of god, I have changed, but to revert....

I asked the same question of my congregation, the typical response was, ''Those who do not know, are not held accountable, and shall see the lord of god in heaven "typically indians". "


Or my other favorite....... this will get your balls in a twist full of laughter!

"God has brought himself upon all of people, even kids in southern africa, he has made a special appearence, if they don't accept him, they are to go to hell!"

Well, damn, if God shows up to one person being raised by wolves, who would honestly be like "nah.... not buying this".... LMAO!!!

Those were the only two answers I ever heard.

My sister did a mission trip to honduras, they did an interpretive dance, and gave out bibles then left a week later...

When I questioned them back, I asked why they had a sense of 'false satisfaction' on their faces, they said they saved people in honduras, I ask how, they said they did an interpretive dance, and handed out bibles......

Clearly I was curious about water? Food? Diseases?

But I guess being in strict poverty, having someone dance, and hand you a bible is..... good? edible bible maybe?

Morons!

Well, there life here is meaningless to some, it's the afterlife to religious people.

I on the other hand, in my life, hope to help these people, not just dance and hand out papers, then go back to my rich life with a false sense of accomplishment.

The Bible alludes to this issue when it mentions that the entire world would have heard about Him by the time He comes to pass out what some call karma, (we all have a phrase for it) what comes around goes around, etc.

Also, there are lots of different faiths in the world who do not appreciate Christian evangelistic efforts in their fundamentalist countries, as we know.
What I find amazing is that Jesus is appearing to people in those countries in their dreams, and they are converting, even at the threat of their lives, and the cost of their jobs, homes, or families. People wouldn't do that if they didn't believe something incredibly strongly. Biologically, they would feel compelled to stay in their community and not have to rebuild their entire lives. And no person is trying to convert them, so what can be done to stop it?

Absolutely nothing. So, Jesus will deal with people as He sees fit. According to the Bible, He received this right from God because He sacrificed Himself for all of us, whether we cared for Him or not, and God found that worthy of Kingship. I definitely want the chance to have a king who would actually die to clear my record...how could there be a better situation? I owe Him everything because of that cleared record. It's not cleared in my mind, and I try to live a better life to put good back into the world as much as I'm allowed to by my lifespan, etc.

Hope that is a complete enough answer for you. I can only give you what I have, but it is Biblical, and I do agree with it. I have my reasons.

BTW I completely agree with the above poster about not taking any real responsibility for helping people with practical needs. The Bible is very specific about common sense actions that belong in the Christian lifestyle. Feeding, clothing, teaching, etc. Very practical and I take that seriously.
You can't step over a needy person to get to church.
At least I can't. That person and I are the church. And that's every day.

[edit on 3-1-2010 by Copperflower]

reply to post by Ghost in the Machine


Ah, I remember that.
Well, have fun. Don't go all crazy tryin' to figure everything out now!!!

reply to post by Republican08

I asked the same question of my congregation, the typical response was, ''Those who do not know, are not held accountable, and shall see the lord of god in heaven "typically indians". "

"God has brought himself upon all of people, even kids in southern africa, he has made a special appearence, if they don't accept him, they are to go to hell!" Well, damn, if God shows up to one person being raised by wolves, who would honestly be like "nah.... not buying this".... LMAO!!!

Ah my, Dear Republican. Your answers and humor always seem to shed some sort of light on my search for truth.

Though I still think there are holes in that theory too. Just my opinion though

When Jesus talks about the truth the way and the life, he is talking about the tree of life.

Here is a quick rundown of the overall story of the bible.

In genesis, man is to take from the tree of knowledge, to learn both good and evil. Well, this we can not deny regardless of belief, in this world we certainly do experience both good and evil.

God removes men from the garden(universe) to protect the tree of life, and those who follow the way of the tree of life, which man knowing evil will no longer do. In other words, this planet is quarantined from the rest of the universe, much less that which is beyond the garden.

Men were united under 1 culture and language. This created a false peace on earth. Because men were all alike, they got along and so forth. However, they once again started to reach towards the garden/universe in the unification. So, the cultures and languages were confused. Men started to war and enslave each other(historically true). Because they were no longer the same, they started to see the differences in each other, couldn't understand each other, and so they started to treat each other.

If this had not been done, then men would have done the same to other life they came across in the universe. Life which follows the way of the tree of life(i will explain more). By confusing the languages, the lessons and such could be learned on earth in a much smaller way. Men had to learn how to deal with those who were different.

So that is the basic state of the earth. Regardless of how you believe it happened, who is at fault, or whatever. Can't deny we are in an environment of good and evil, and that we have been quarantined from the universe for quite awhile.

Some call it a school, some call it a prision, either way you ain't getting off/far without learning the lessons. If not for atleast the very fact that mankind will destroy itself if it's technology advances too far of it's spirituality.

So in come the commandments. Basic rules. Do not kill, do not steal, do not lie, do not cheat, etc. These commandments are what one keeps in order to live by the way of the tree of life. These commandments have to be followed in order to live in what is called a heavenly society. Think about it. If you steal, then you can not expect to live in a society without theft. If you are in it, then it's automatically impossible. This is why mankind was removed in the first place. Their presence made a heavenly society impossible.

But men didn't understand the laws, they didn't understand the nature, the reasoning behind it and so forth. They only knew to do what they were told. Because of this, they didn't understand how to keep them properly. As such, extra laws were added by men, and men would justify their actions/sins with hypocrisy. Likewise, all these laws were near impossible to keep, much like today, and so basically everyone was guilty of things but those in charge just used it as a way of placing all the burden on the people, and to hold them down.

So then enter Jesus. Jesus who has understanding and knows what the true laws are, and knows the true way to live. He does what he does, gives people understanding. In his life example, he shows people the true way to live and what to do/follow. And because of this, if those people believe and follow him then they will keep the way of the tree of life, which thus allows them to re-enter in the garden having "repented for sins", which means - fix your mistakes.

But then in comes the Romans and other men, who want to turn all that into a ritual sacrifice, and then people around beating the crap outta every with a "Jesus stick". They worship the idol, don't understand anything and are basically exactly like the people who killed Jesus to begin with. And it's going to remain that way until people start to actually understand, see the truth and follow it.

Because no matter what you believe in what I've said before, you are not going to have a peaceful society unless the people keep the commandments. And that doesn't need any religion to make it true.

And eventually people will do it, or they will all die.

So basically, that is the cliffnotes version of the bible. From the fall to the rise at the end.

Originally posted by Ghost in the Machine
reply to post by troubleshooter

 

I came to the same conclusion you did as well... Untill I read Romans 1:20 and Ecclesiastes 3:11. Add those two quotes to the equation and it changes the outcome of the conclusion.

Ecclesiastes 3:11 "He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end."

The focus here is as I suggested on conscious knowledge.

Paul uses the same idea but focuses on forensic responsibility...
...and the absolute need for God to act on man's behalf.

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" Romans 1:20

This is also part of Paul's opening preamble in his letter to the Romans...
...a church that had become predominatly Gentile...
...and was in danger of minimizing their Hebrew roots.

This is part of Paul's introduction which leads to his conclusion...

"But now the justice of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the justice of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:" Romans 3:21-24

Man never seeks God even though His life is what motivates our being...
...God acts to reconcile man to Himself.

The word usually translated 'justice' or 'righteousness' in English is totally misunderstood...
...it is not referring to a punitive Greko/Roman justice...
...but a Hebrew concept of justice more like our 'contract law'...
...God made a promise to Abraham, a contract...
...and when God fulfills His promise a state of Justice or Righteousness exists.

This is the state in which mankind now stands...
...the promise has been kept...God has acted in history to reconcile the world of men to Himself...
...because we did not and could not seek Him.

This state of Justice now exists and all men who do not resist His Spirit now will know Christ.



[edit on 3/1/10 by troubleshooter]

Seeing as we are all one consciousness how could you preclude anyone from anything, let alone Heaven.

[edit on 3-1-2010 by spacecowgirl]

reply to post by spacecowgirl


Simply becuase the Bible does not cover that particular topic.

Originally posted by spacecowgirl
Seeing as we are all one consciousness how could you preclude anyone from anything, let alone Heaven.

One consciousness explains union but denies the obvious destinction we all experience.

There is a dialectic in our existence....there is both unity and distinction.

There can be no relationship if there is only one consciousness (unity)...
...but relationship between individuals exists and is not an illusion...
...so distinction must also exist.

While I agree our current disconnect over-emphasizes distinction...
...but the answer is not in the opposite...
...but in recognizing that it is One Spirit that balances the dialectic...
...and this Spirit is a person who unites us all in one relationship.