'Dead' mother and baby revived after Christmas Eve birth

Originally posted by muse7
It's funny how everyone is attributing this to the power of God but totally forgetting the people who truly saved the mother and child.

Science 1
God 0

Ahem... Well, you worship your god (science) which brought us nuclear bombs, chemical warfare, hormone-enhanced meat, etc. I'll stick with the carpenter from Nazareth.

Originally posted by novacs4me

Originally posted by muse7
It's funny how everyone is attributing this to the power of God but totally forgetting the people who truly saved the mother and child.

Science 1
God 0

Ahem... Well, you worship your god (science) which brought us nuclear bombs, chemical warfare, hormone-enhanced meat, etc. I'll stick with the carpenter from Nazareth.

I don't worship anyone.

But if you want to play that game, don't bother going to a Hospital when you suffer a life threatening injury. Just pray to God that you survive.

Originally posted by muse7

Originally posted by novacs4me

Originally posted by muse7
It's funny how everyone is attributing this to the power of God but totally forgetting the people who truly saved the mother and child.

Science 1
God 0

Ahem... Well, you worship your god (science) which brought us nuclear bombs, chemical warfare, hormone-enhanced meat, etc. I'll stick with the carpenter from Nazareth.

I don't worship anyone.

But if you want to play that game, don't bother going to a Hospital when you suffer a life threatening injury. Just pray to God that you survive.

I'm not playing a game. I'm very serious. And you know as well as I do that there is nothing in the Bible that forbids me to use medical care. But when the doctors and nurses can't save a life, as they couldn't in this case, then one who believes in God doesn't throw their hands up in despair. They do not rail at God as unbelievers do. A believer folds their hands, in prayer, because they know their God is the God of 'lost causes'.

Where is the miracle in saving a baby that was never dead?

Some people will believe anything.

Well, it's a great thing that both mother and son are alive and well.

There are countless cases of NDEs where people come back. IANDS is a good place to read up on some of these documented cases.

But a miracle or message from God, hardly. These things do happen and to suggest that "God" had something to do with it implies he favours some more than others. And that's not what an all loving, all understanding, impartial omnipotent being should be.

I don't see these instances as "miracles" in a religious sense. No God or being had a hand in it.

Maybe a "miracle" in the colloquial sense of statistics and probobabilty. As in, it was a million to one chance.

Either way, glad both mum and son were fine. Can't believe God let them die in the first place..

Originally posted by noonebutme
Well, it's a great thing that both mother and son are alive and well.

But a miracle or message from God, hardly. These things do happen and to suggest that "God" had something to do with it implies he favours some more than others. And that's not what an all loving, all understanding, impartial omnipotent being should be.

Either way, glad both mum and son were fine. Can't believe God let them die in the first place..

We do not get to place our 'shoulds' on God. Well, you can make up your own belief, no one will stop you. The God of the Bible did favor the nation of Israel, and He still does. He listens to the prayers of those who trust Him (which apparently doesn't include you). I trust Him, and He has been so good to me for the past 30 years that I have to believe that He has shown me great favor. I don't deserve it, nor does Israel, but God is God. We don't get to decide who He will favor and who He will not.

Originally posted by novacs4me

Originally posted by muse7

Originally posted by novacs4me

Originally posted by muse7
It's funny how everyone is attributing this to the power of God but totally forgetting the people who truly saved the mother and child.

Science 1
God 0

Ahem... Well, you worship your god (science) which brought us nuclear bombs, chemical warfare, hormone-enhanced meat, etc. I'll stick with the carpenter from Nazareth.

I don't worship anyone.

But if you want to play that game, don't bother going to a Hospital when you suffer a life threatening injury. Just pray to God that you survive.

I'm not playing a game. I'm very serious. And you know as well as I do that there is nothing in the Bible that forbids me to use medical care. But when the doctors and nurses can't save a life, as they couldn't in this case, then one who believes in God doesn't throw their hands up in despair. They do not rail at God as unbelievers do. A believer folds their hands, in prayer, because they know their God is the God of 'lost causes'.

You're right, there is nothing in the Bible that forbids you to use a Hospital. But you seem like you want to make Science sound evil, that it only has been helpful in the creation of weapons of mass destruction. You and I know that is not the case.

Religion might have set a good code for people to follow back when almost everyone was an illiterate peasant, with no knowledge of the Universe, Biology or Medicine. But if you want to worship your carpenter from Nazareth then fine with me, whatever floats your boat.

reply to post by muse7
Actually, I don't think science is evil. You were the one who gave a point to science and none to God. No, science is neither good nor bad. It can be used for good or for evil. Historically, most scientific discovery was directed towards making life better for all of us. But the law of unintended consequences always comes into play, and there is very little of mankind's increase in knowledge through science that is just used for good.

Originally posted by semperfortis
reply to post by Republican08

 

The Lord doesn't kill millions, in fact He doesn't kill anyone.. We do.

We have free choice and sin rules this world until Jesus comes again.

The Lord just steps in and does little miracles like this from time to time to show us he is still here, still waiting on the most hardened of us to come to Him and not spend eternity suffering.

All the suffering in the world? Look in the mirror; it's out fault and our responsibility.

What a wonderful event.

Semper

If mankind has to take responsibility for the death of billions, then mankind can take responsibility for these little "miracles". God doesn't have that right.

Originally posted by novacs4me
The God of the Bible did favor the nation of Israel, and He still does. He listens to the prayers of those who trust Him (which apparently doesn't include you) [very much correct]. I trust Him, and He has been so good to me for the past 30 years that I have to believe that He has shown me great favor. I don't deserve it, nor does Israel, but God is God. We don't get to decide who He will favor and who He will not.

So your God, as depicted in your Bible, has favourites? "He" prefers the nation of Israel? Bit biased, bit unfair, don't you think? This God wants all to love it, worship it and give their faith and trust unto it - yet...it has *favourites* ?! Hmm, I wonder who were the people who wrote those stories the Bible is based on....hmm...

Leading back to the original idea, why then would these so called miracles happen to people *It* doesn't favour?

No, it's too circumstantial, too convenient an answer to say it was an "Act of [insert your preferred deity name here]"

I'm really quite surprised that people are so easy to dismiss the capabilities of the human body; its ability to deal with damage and adapt and circumvent, to heal and perform amazing feats. Why is it that such amazing attributes of us "mere" humans is always in some way a devine intervention?

Why can we not pat this woman and child on their back and say, "Well done! You met with what was certain defeat but your amazing human body, through countless millenia of evolution, allowed you to overcome certain death. Damn good on you"

I don't think people are given enough credit these days.

reply to post by noonebutme
I guess I failed to make my point. God is God, and you aren't, and I'm not. Is that clear enough? It's His universe, His world, and you can find your place in it, or waste your life chasing after things that don't matter.

I find the entire article quite strange, actually. I wonder why they didn't interview an actual ER MD?

Take this line: ""She literally stopped breathing and her heart stopped," her husband said. Pandemonium erupted as doctors and nurses tried to revive her with chest compressions and a breathing tube, but nothing worked."

Obviously, what they did ended up working, as she is alive. Chest compressions and breathing tubes are only the first part of the code to stop organ deterioration. The real life saving happens when the code team shows up with the meds and shocks. Which is why current BLS (basic life support) standards now tell folk to do everything they can to get paramedics to the scene ASAP, as simple chest compressions don't actually re-start the heart all that often. Codes often take some time to work, with many rounds of meds and shocks administered until they can get the heart back into a sustainable rhythm. Although I'm not surprised that Dad, not being medically trained, would know any of that.

Childbirth is incredibly hard on the body, and it sounds as if the baby may have pushed up against a vital artery (maybe the aorta), during labor, which tanked her BP and stopped the blood flow to her brain causing her to black out. Once the baby was removed, her system was able to be restarted. BTW, it is not uncommon for people to bounce back from a sudden cardiac arrest, esp. if they have no serious pre-existing illness. All the organs are still functional, and it is "just" a matter of restarting the engine, so to speak. And the baby was never dead. Again, Babies are saved every day in hospitals all over the world in just this condition.

It certainly was a "Christmas miracle", a medical miracle brought to you by highly skilled medical practitioners working very hard to save two lives. Thank goodness they were not having a home birth (although w/ proper screening, it can be quite safe). Had this been the case, I doubt this "miracle" would have occurred.

As for God's part, why did "he" see fit to stop her heart in the first place? Just to mess with the husband for a few hours and keep the medics on their toes?

At the end of the day the family believes it was, divine intervention. Who are we to take that away from them.

Such a lovely story, on christmas too. Good luck to them I say

Originally posted by novacs4me
reply to post by noonebutme

 

I guess I failed to make my point. God is God, and you aren't, and I'm not. Is that clear enough?

Well, you're only basing that on a very old book of collated stories, written at a time when people ran screaming when the skies rumbled or it the earth cracked. You actually don't know what you are saying is true. And based on all likelihood and probability, it isn't.

Whereas I'm saying that it was in fact, the woman's and son's own bodies and the medical team that brought them back to life. The conditions for this perfect event were all met in this instance and it worked.

The logic for my reasoning comes from the fact that we all hear of really good people dying unjustly and not-so-nice people do not and get away with whatever their conviction. WHat sort of being allows that? Either a very cruel one or one that simply didn't exist in the first place. It seems more logical that whatever trauma the womand and son suffered wasn't severe enough to sever their ties to this plane of existence and they therefore were able to be resuscitated. ANd this happens all the time, around the world, by people of different religions and of no religion.

So that's why I say this event wasn't a miracle in the religious context - your god simply doesn't exist to decide whether to stick his arrogant hand out to help someone over another.

And if he did exist and plays favourites, then I don't want to be in the same game as that bully of being.

...you can find your place in it, or waste your life chasing after things that don't matter.

Well said - exactly my point.


[edit on 31-12-2009 by noonebutme]

reply to post by muse7


NO, I salute those doctors - but that WAS through the power of God!

He gave them the brains etc etc etc.

A couple of you have expressed your feelings about a God who would allow suffering. Back in 1977 I was driving at about 70 mph on the way to two job interviews when a car suddenly pulled out in front of me from a dirt road. I collided with them, and we banged along, side by side, into a farmer's field. I was very angry after driving 500 miles that this happened. I could have been amazed that none of us were seriously injured, but instead I screamed inside at God for allowing this to happen. Nobody wants to suffer. I didn't ask anything of God, except to be left alone. But this incident more than any other awakened me to the difficulty of my position. If God didn't exist (and I didn't believe he did), then why was I so angry with him? So ask yourself the next time you hurl your worst invectives at the one you don't believe in, is it logical?

Originally posted by novacs4me
...
So ask yourself the next time you hurl your worst invectives at the one you don't believe in, is it logical?

That is assuming those of us that do not believe in your god actually hurl vindictive comments at him in such instances.

I myself do not. I've been knocked of my motorcycle three times, the second time I was nearly run over by a car in the opposing lane. This was all down to a car driver not paying attention and pulling out in front of me. Did I curse God? Hell no. It had nothing to do with any sort of "god". Did I curse the car driver? You betcha I did. It was a stupid human not paying attention and me, another stupid human not realising as a motorcycle rider you have to ride for yourself and for all the car drivers around you.

The fact that as I was knocked off and bounching face down (thank the UK for mandatory helmets!) on the road into the opposing lane that I managed to grab hold of the car's wheel arch as he also hit the brakes, thereby just narrowly missing having my skull crushed was again, no act of "God". It was the acts of two people. Nothing more.

I still don't see why people of a religious background *must* attribute fantastic acts, human or otherwise, to a devince influence. For better or worse, we humans are a pretty damn resillient bunch and very good at adapting and overcoming.

My opinion, of course.

[edit on 31-12-2009 by noonebutme]

Originally posted by kiwifoot
Aww, a bit of a Christmas miracle always goes down well.

[edit on 30-12-2009 by kiwifoot]

AGREED NICE!