Just Say NO to Fed Health Plan

Originally posted by The Transhumanist
So you have stated yourself that you have no alternative solution and as far as I can tell the only conservative solution is allow insurance companies to compete along state lines. Yes this may allow for more competitive rates but it won't fix any inherent flaws with privatized health care.

Which could/WILL be a disaster

Much like the usury rates in DELAWARE are so high they are considered CRIMINAL in ALL the other 49 states. So credit card companies set up shop there - COMMIT criminal racketeering in eyes of all the other state statutes

SO DELAWARE state laws dictate the LAW to all the OTHER states.

Talking constitution

Apply this Quasi criminal behavior to Health Insurance, it will be a [snip] festival of epic proportions.

[snip], profit first, never mind your [snip] well being or rights.

I can imagine if ... Texas or SC ... deems that CANCER is NOT considered an imminent medical threat to ones health. Use your imagination, they will think it up

Fight for freedoms

Freedom to get boned in every hole


The freedom for companies to write the laws of your own land




[edit on 21-12-2009 by Janky Red]



Removed two censor circumventions and a mild personal attack.

Please read:

Vulgarity and The Automatic ATS Censors

Courtesy is mandatory



[edit on 21/12/09 by masqua]

reply to post by converge


With all due respect, I must call you on this one. Most people inadvertantly recite the Consitution not knowing what it really means or is.

First off, the Constitution was written to protect the interests of the Masonic Brotherhood, the Bill of Rights was added for the protection of the people. The Brotherhood put up a good fight to prevent the Bill of Rights but it was ratified. Now, if you believe me to be wrong, then where in the Constitution does it refer to the People of THESE united States of America specifically. The general welfare clause has NOTHING to do with the PEOPLE, but the United States corporation. They were covering their arses back then and they knew it. It is all word magic. If you are interested in American Jurisprudence, it is a long volume of books and quite a read.

I have studied law in the past. You bring up the auto insurance. You do not need auto insurance, that was a scam created by......wait for it.......TPTB to line their pockets as they have a vested interest in redistribution of the wealth of the people. Simple really. You must be able to show that you can financially afford to repair a damaged auto or property should you be involved in an accident. You need not purchase this "financial safety net" from another party. But who owns stock in the insurance companies? Of course, the politicians "making" the "laws" which neither apply to you or me. They are within the "Law Society" which you and I are not a part of unless we elect to be by applying for a license and giving up our rights.

This health care bill is a joke. Personal responsibility would serve everyone better. Unfortunately TPTB who own stock in the ag business as well, have tainted the food supply so badly it makes everyone ill. Well guess who owns stock in the pharmacutical industry, again, they are lining their pockets with your wealth and health. The orginal 13th Amendment should be re-instated into the Bill of Rights, it would abolish lobbyists. Nuf said. WE would have the say then and WE would have control. There are many things which we could do but people are too busy with everyday life, television, kids, sports, drinking and socializing to do anything meaningful. And so here we are. I have done all that I can in getting myself out of the system by filing the neccessary paperwork to nullify the governments control OVER me. I now am sovereign and feel great. I need not worry about anyone.

The Sheriff is the ONLY certified law enforcement agent in the country. He is elected by the people and must follow his oath of office, he has no lobbyists chasing him or buying him off. He actually has authority over everyone in the State save for the governor, and then it is a tie. He has authority over the federal government too, think not? Watch the youtube videos of Richard I. Mack, he is making headway in this area. Educating the public and Sheriffs to their power.

I sincerely hope that more people investigate their rights and their ability to take control of their government. Search UCC-1 and Common Law Lien, find out how to "claim" what is rightfully yours. If we all do this NOW, it will be a much better world tomorrow.

Originally posted by converge
What is in the Constitution, however, under Article I Section 8 is "The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States." Health care without a doubt falls under the general welfare clause.

Actually, that's individual welfare, not general. Forcing all taxpayers to pay the burden is also use of force to remove individual choice. Health insurance is not a Right...Rights are what people are born with. Health insurance is a "good." The Right to life liberty & the pursuit of happiness, etc are all acquired on birth. Health insurance is purchased. There is no Government with the power to "bestow Rights."

Yes, they can legally require drivers to be insured, because driving is a privilege, not a Right. The whole mess behind this particular concept is complex & not related to this particular topic, except how the Feds have been systematically violating Rights. In a nutshell, the Supreme Court had ruled (under the delegated Constitutional Interpretation Power) that there is a Right to Travel Freely on Public Roads & to Transport Personal Belongings. The abuse of Rights comes in when it's also been ruled that it's a privilege to conduct business & to conduct business on Public Roads means Driving, not Traveling. The real abuse is when people have been tricked into registering their Automobiles as Vehicles en mass, thereby reducing Travelers down to Drivers, not knowing that they are legally considered to be "conducting business" even while going about their private affairs. This is the same basic strategy they've used for over 100 years to reduce Rights down to privileges across the whole nation. It's the same basic strategy they're using on the Health Reform...They are claiming that Health Coverage is Right, but any kind of "insurance" is a good, not a Right. Rights cannot be bought or sold, but "insurance" certainly is.

Also, take a look at this post. This Federal Health Care debacle is even being pushed through by a commonly-used "stealth tactic" that Congress has been using for several decades...Pushing legislation when fewer representatives are even attending, during the holiday seasons while We the People are paying more attention to families. This is how the Federal Reserve Act was pushed, & merely looking through Congressional publications archives will show many more examples of this "stealth" technique, performed over the course of decades.

If something this important were not a bogus attempt to strip away more Rights & further expand an already over-bloated government, then why bother using "stealth legislation?"

[edit on 21-12-2009 by MidnightDStroyer]

reply to post by daddio


and the people that cannot or will not take responsibility for themselves, you would let die??? that's the problem with absolutes...they make for bad law. why are the COSTS of healthcare not discussed?...no, not the taxes, but the cost for a pill, a device, a doctors pay, a hospitals overhead, the research, the healthcare company's overhead...why aren't these corporate charges being lowered.

if the corporations that provide the above, keep raising the amount they charge......the source of that payment will not matter.

nm

[edit on 21/12/09 by masqua]

reply to post by MidnightDStroyer

First, thank you for your serious response. It's a shame not everyone in this thread could do the same.

Regarding your argument, which centered on the matter of rights, I would like to point out to you that nowhere in my post I claimed health care was a right, and even if I had, my personal opinion on that is irrelevant to the argument I made.

My argument focused merely on what the Government can or cannot do based on what the Constitution says and allows. After all, that's the whole definition of something being constitutional or not.

I never said health care was a right and therefor it was Constitutional. What I argued was, that Congress had the power to establish a health care system, just as it has to establish an army for common defense, and collect taxes to pay for that system. It has nothing to do with individual rights, but with the powers the Constitution gives Congress.

In your post you claim "rights are what people are born with." Having an army to defend the country isn't a right either. It's something, however, the Constitution says Congress can do, and gives it power to collect taxes on the people to pay for that defense. I assume you aren't against paying taxes for the military and other agencies to protect the country.

You argue that "[f]orcing all taxpayers to pay the burden is also use of force to remove individual choice." Don't you have to pay the burden, through taxes, of the military as specified by Article I Section 8?

In my perspective, a health care system would be considered to be for the "general welfare of the United States," and therefor qualify under that same article. You apparently disagree, that's fine - but you're centering your argument on infringement of rights, when, to me at least, it's clear that Congress would have the power to tax people for a health care system if it qualifies under Article I §8, considering that it already does for the military and even Social Security.

The Health Bill, as currently in the Senate, explicitly violates Section 8 of Article I, which states:

Section 8.

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

The fact that the US government has excluded Nebraska from having to pay Medicaid assessments, violates the "uniform" clause of Section 8. Period.

Of course, this is far from the first time that THIS Congress has violated the Constitution. In fact, it is hard to find anything that they have done, that does NOT violate the Constitution.

The actions here have shown CLEARLY what LIES Obama passed off on the American people. Gone are any claims to "Transparency", bipartisanship, time for all to absorb the bills, the end of earmarks, etc. There were all lies.

Joe Wilson was correct when he called out to Obama "You lie!". Obama owes an apology to Wilson.

reply to post by MidnightDStroyer


Well, starred and flagged.

Good info, and thanks for posting it.

Political madness or not. Currently this bill is unconstitutional, so it is illegal. sure if they want to ratify the constitution to make it legal so be it. Sure they will get the 2/3 majority to propose the change, but I don't think they will get the 3/4 to make it happen. That is probably the reason they didn't try to go about it properly. Now when they vote yes on this bill they have and with so many other bills broke they're oath of office. Yes I watch fox news, but I have been against this bill before fox started talking about it. I don't like Obama at all. I think he is a snake. I disliked Bush as well.

reply to post by jimmyx


Those people wouldn't die, they would have to pull their heads out of their rear ends BY THEMSLEVES, no doctor needed.

Why do some people get their undies in a bundle when we talk about Natural born rights as opposed to "color of law" statutes and laws. The Constitution in Artcle 1 section 8 is refering to taxing BUSINESS/CORPORATIONS who import and export goods. NO TAXES ARE LAID ON THE PEOPLE. This is what I do not understand about how some people "interpret" the Constitution. It is a corporate document, the Bill of Rights is what applies to the PEOPLE.

Corporations are given the "privilege" to conduct business and should pay for the roads and everything else, they profit from it. This would keep the playing field even. If the people did not, and they don't, have to pay taxes, you would have more "money" to spend in the public. Costs would be reduced along with the amount you earn, a loaf of bread would still be a quarter and fuel would be 50 cents a gallon. This is what people don't understand. CHECKS AND BALANCES.

The Health Care bill is a fraud, the compelling interest isn't the general welfare of the public, it's about ENSLAVING the public and manipulating the public. Even further than it already is, because some of us have escaped the system so they have to make it more far reaching. Get it?

It is going to be used to gather up those that have filed the paperwork and got themselves out of the system. I have several friends who are doctors, they would love to be free to practice on their own, but individual doctors and private practices are being buried in rhetoric and red tape, they are being taxed out of existance, that IS the problem. These people aren't looking to become billionaires, they just want to help people and make a decent living. Passion often replaces greed as a motive.

I am totally 100% against any type of gov involvement in health care.

That being said, if they pass this POS, here is how to beat it and save a lot of money.

They have removed the ability of insurers to deny pre-existing conditions.

How much do those of you who are insured pay every month for insurance? For families it is probably at least a couple hundred if not much more plus the employers contribution.

If you don't get insurance the gov will fine you $750.

Don't get insurance and pay the fine. Pay cash for the doc visits for the antibiotics or whatever small stuff you need.

If you become injured, ill, need treatment etc. then you can sign up for insurance at that point, as they can't deny you, and then take advantage of gov run "insurance". If your condition is not chronic then dump the plan as soon as you are well. Re-join as needed.

It's great, it's like waiting for your house to burn down and then buying fire insurance after it is smoldering ashes because now your burned down house is a "pre-existing condition".

It will be great that is until all the insurance companies go out of business because they are paying for people's ills and treatments that haven't paid any money into the insurance company's fund. Of course I'm sure when that happens we can bail them out.

I want to secede from my federal, state and county governments. I will give them none of my money and in return I shall ask for none of their services. No sherif, no fire dept. etc. is ok by me as long as I don't have to pay for the new baby the single mom had so she can get more welfare.

reply to post by rusethorcain


wow... all i heard is BLAH BLAH BLAH BLHA BLHAB LHALBHALBHALHBLAHBLHBl


Fire them all!!

They want to vote this on us without our approval??

FIRE THEM ALL!!!

Originally posted by mrsoul2009
It seems to me that the folks who are most vocal against any kind of Federal Health care overall or public health option are those that already have a form of health insurance that works for them and that they either have provided for them or can afford. I think these discussions can become much clearer if the people who argue against any type of government health care system offer their status as insured or uninsured. Believe me folks, whatever bill is passed and signed by our president will not end the debate on health care in America. As time goes on, health insurance will become more and more expensive and less available to all which will eventually widen the audience to a tipping point.

WRONG!

I dont want it, and i dont have it!

Looks who knows everything now? hmphff

if this gets passed, then i will be fined, taxed and imprisoned for not having it.

at least now, i am truly free, and no one tells me to do anything except my girlfriend

Originally posted by MidnightDStroyer
I'm posting this in the Political Madness forum because I'm pretty sure that it's in agreement that the Federal Health Plan coming up for vote is nothing short of madness...But hopefully this post in particular shows us that we do have remedies available to reign in their insanity.

According to polls, the majority of People want nothing to do with the Federal Health Care Plans coming up to vote in the Senate Monday. Well, if they don't listen to the opinions of the people, maybe they'll listen to the law & court-case precedences?
[edit on 20-12-2009 by MidnightDStroyer]

First, the best evidence of your ignorance is the fact that the senate bill contains no public option.
No Public Option in Senate Bill

Second, Polls show the majority of Americans want a public option. So, you just lied.

The now-departed public option, however, is supported by a 56%-38% majority, including a 54%-41% margin among independents. Also, the Medicare buy-in for Americans ages 55-64 was supported by 64%-30%, including 57%-36% among independents and even a 50%-44% margin among Republicans.

Sou rce

Neocons aren't interested in what the majority of people want. They are only interested in what they want.

The Congress has plenty of power to tax for health insurance. They've gone way further over the "constitutional line" on a great many other issues. This is hardly even debatable, unless you start with the more grievous constitutional offenses first. And, personally I agree that Congress has the exact same authority to tax for health care as they do for providing a military, under the clause quoted previously.

That said, I hate the bill as it currently stands. It's just a big xmas present for the insurance giants. What most real Americans would like is a full public health care system. This bastardized bill is worse than doing nothing imo. If you're not for public health care, fine you have your say too, and we should have a public vote on such a thing.

Shall we have a public health care system: check yes or no. If no, then forget it. If yes, then let's get on it.

reply to post by andrewh7

First, the best evidence of your ignorance is the fact that the senate bill contains no public option.

Actually, it is YOU that shows ignorance regarding the Senate Bill. There are 48 stipulations regarding the expansion of Medicaid in this bill.
In case you weren't AWARE of it, MEDICAID IS A PUBLIC OPTION. Duh!

Why don't YOU READ the bill, before you make false comments:

help.senate.gov...

reply to post by pirhanna


thats what i think is so funny.

this isnt FREE healthcare....

this isnt even really going to help anyone any more than the current system does.

if you are broke, and you dont have healthcare, THEY STILL HAVE TO TREAT YOU! if you have healthcare, THEY STILL HAVE TO TREAT YOU.

yea of course after you are stabilized, you have severely different options for staying in a room by yourself with plenty of service, or getting the boot on the curb.

that part of it is abhorent.

i understand why it happens but its terrible. who will pay for it? well... ?

but what i dont get is, that obviously EVERYONE knows that it is bad, but for some reason, democrats especially, but those who support this bill think that those who dont support it, JUST WANT EVERYONE TO DIE CUS THEY HATE THE WORLD.....

so confused.... really???

of course we like nasa, it has its problems (more if you are a fan of this site), and we need an fda (opinions are rampant on its course of actions and bribes and such through here)

we need regulation on certain markets, but the problem, THAT IM SURE YOU WONT EVEN RESPOND TO, is that the government isnt trying to regulate insurance to everyone, and opening statelines....

THEY WANT TO RUN IT

the same as amtrack -- BROKE

post office -- BROKE

MEDICARE -- BROKE

will we even be able to use social security when i get old??? enough said.

if you really think the government will come save you, then you are as dense as you are naive.

add to that ITS UNCONSTITUTIONAL...


i mean... i love my country, but lord, what has happened...

Exactly. You can't be refused emergency care in the US. Can't get somebody to pay for your non-emergency medical care? Tough #! I'll pay for your medical care when you pay for my mortgage.

reply to post by converge


Converge that was a very good reply there. Congress does reserve that power, and might I add that the police and fire department could be considered as an individual welfare department and yet we happily have those under our government. Folks would obviously argue that "police and the fire department are in the constitution" but that still doesnt ignore the fact these are departments catering to the welfare of each and every one of us and there for verymuch applies in the same way to healthcare.

Congress does reserve that power to ammend and add a public healthcare option for the general well being of the United states.

And does the US Congress have the authority to require that all citizens purchase health insurance as the Constitution is currently written?