Just Say NO to Fed Health Plan

reply to post by JohnPhoenix

All anyone would need to do to modify this to send to their own senators is to excerpt the part from your State Constitution which you can find in 2 seconds via a search, all the rest of my text can be copied into your own message- be sure to remove my name at the end and insert your own name and address- demand a reply and send it right away...

I'm going to jump to the assumption that since MidnightDStroyer claims to have found it from a woman in Michigan and you claim to have recieved it from a man in Washington, this letter is making its way around the internet at a blinding pace. I'm sure if you just U2U Midnight the 'offense' will be regarded as a mistake considering each post is in a different forum.

Think before you react.
My original resonse to this letter.

An an English person who has seen our National Health Service help my own family many times and myself many times, I just don't understand why Americans are so against this Health Plan.

Can any literate and open minded, anti-Plan members please explain it to me please because I'm really confused as to why you would want to veto a Bill that would bring free healthcare to the US Public?

[edit on 21-12-2009 by crichton13]

Good point crichton13, and as I previously questioned, it's very suspicious how everyone is suddenly using this healthcare bill as a revolution target. And as I mentioned, why weren't they protesting in the streets over Bush's patriot act? How about NASA, NOAA, FDA, FCC, FTC, EPA, Dept of Agriculture, US Forestry Service, Centers of disease control, US geological service, US postal service, social security, welfare, dept of education, yada, yada, yada. Where is the all the outrage over these GOVERNMENT programs?

The OBVIOUS hypocrisy of the timing of all this stinks to high heavens (and meanwhile we will continue to get screwed by the wealthiest and greediest corporations on earth - to which we will continue to have no say). Just wait until these tea partiers loose their jobs, get a health issue, and then get taken to the cleaners (like I have). You will learn what I am talking about when that happens (especially now that they can cap conditions at will)!

Note: The tax argument is a red heron used by the insurance companies so that they can continue to take us to the cleaners and screw us every which way to Sunday. Overturn TRUE health care reform (with a public option), and stay servants of the CORPORATION states of America.


[edit on 21-12-2009 by whatsup]

This Health bill is just another blatant in your face money and power grab. If this plan is put in place we the people and the whole health industry even including the insurance companies will see massive taxes.

We will be taxed hard for FOUR years before any changes are made to the current system, one half trillion from us and one half trillion from the medical industry before anything can start to change. We will see prices of current policies go up big time and the number of insured drop.

People our taxes go to the Federal Reserve bank as payment for our debt. THIS IS THE BIGGEST SCAM IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD.

If they pass this bill they are declaring war against the people of the United States of American and we should hang them all for TREASON.

Originally posted by crichton13
An an English person who has seen our National Health Service help my own family many times and myself many times, I just don't understand why Americans are so against this Health Plan.


[edit on 21-12-2009 by crichton13]

Because they are basically going to force us to buy health insurance that we can not afford or want.

They will tax us for FOUR years before they even do one thing and then if we do not buy a policy that they think we can afford we GO TO JAIL. Its a SCAM.

Its nothing like the system you have in your country. The politicians and health insurance companies will be rich beyond belief after this and the quality of service will tank because we will have no say in it.

If they feel your a burden on the state they will drop you. If you don't pay they will put you in jail.

If your an illegal immigrant or a lazy worthless piece of crap collecting government money because you cant find a job because of your a drug addict with ten kids you get everything handed to you on a silver platter for FREE!!

Last year I was laid off. I was single and had a $950.00 mortgage and all the cost involved that go along with living. The Fed gave me $275.00 a week unemployment. I also applied for food and medical assistance because I was not going to be able to pay for my medical insurance or my house at that.

THEY TOLD ME THAT SINCE I GOT UNEMPLOYMENT THAT I HAD ENOUGH MONEY!!! They also said that if I had kids OR WAS A MINORITY THAT THEY COULD HELP ALLOT MORE.

THAT IS WHY THEY CAN GO SCREW THEMSELVES WITH THIS HEALTH BILL. They are going to tell us we make enough money to PAY THEM for what should be FREE!!

They waste more money per year of what we give them already, more than enough to pay for this health bill.

I got out and busted my ass to recover from being laid off and Congress can kiss my ass if they think they are going to get my hard earned money for this SCAM.

They caused me to be laid off in the first place by making the banks sell houses to the minorities who could not afford them in the first place.

I am now back on top making more money than ever giving them my middle finger the whole time. I hope they all burn in hell.

Crichton, Wassup;

The reason for the outcry regarding a national health care plan is the idea that the Federal Government will control what you need in terms of health care.
For example:
If your grandparents (88 and 90 years of age) are in generally good health but your grandmother's vision is failing due to cataracts; what we have to do now is: 1. be referred by your primary care physician to an opthomolgist 2. wait three-six months to get into see the opthomologist
3. The opthomologist will then refer your grandmother to another eye doctor for a second opinion (another 3-6 month wait?)
4. Second opinion doctor say "ok let's do the surgery"
5. Procedure has to be approved by Medicare and AARP (or other secondary insurance company) (please wait another 6 weeks for approval) 6. Your grandmother has the surgery and can see to get around her house again.......

Now, under the new "plan", the Federal gov't says at step #5 above, "Your granny's too old to have this surgery. This kind of procedure should only be done on people who're young enough for it to be beneficial to them." You say "WHAT?!?!?!" and the government official on the other end of the line asks "You wouldn't give an alcoholic a liver transplant would you?"

There's good reason to be upset about this new plan. I don't know about you all but having NO insurance is almost better than having a government ran insurance regulating whether or not certain procedures/medications are beneficial to the population.

It is scary what is going on in DC and it is even worse that there people have been voted in. That in turn makes it even worse. Toooooo bad it has passed the first vote. This country is not headed in the right direction and it is going to effect all of us. Even the people that didn't vote for these morons!

Well congratulations CS of A (Corporation States of America)! Your $356 million spent on lobbying by the health care industry, and your $199 million spent on lobbying by the pharmaceutical industry has paid off! The senate has passed this bill without a public option, and you are still free to continue screwing gullible Americans at will and to continue to line your pockets with unlimited profits. Hopefully all of your CEOs will continue to get big raises.

Your lies which you have perpetrated all over the internet and media (and tea parties) concerning death camps, people not having an option, etc. etc have paid off! Health care decisions are now firmly back in your hands (where they belong) instead of the peoples (via representation through government).

Relax now people, it's status quo and oligarchy rule as usual.



[edit on 21-12-2009 by whatsup]

Here is what I don't get and don't see getting fixed at all in these plans.

The cost of health care. They want to talk about the cost if insurance instead of the actual cost.
Why do they charge so much at doctors and hospitals? How can it be that 20 cents worth of asprin gets charged out at 10 dollars? This of couse is one example.

If what they charged was not so much, our insurance would not be either.
Most of my life, I have not had insurance by choice. I used to be real active with football, waterskiing, snowmobiling, etc. Enough things that I would get banged up now and then. I used to just pay the doctor and never really worried about it being more than a couple of hundred bucks.
And if I could not pay it all at once, I spread it out a few months just by asking.

Where the hell did all this go wrong?

I think I figures out the whole reason for the BS that is passing in congress. I think the idea is to get people to vote out incumbents and vote in new people but without knowing who is getting voted in it could end very bad. I mean look at how many people voted democrat because "I can't vote for a republican" and then on the simple premise of get him out now look what we have. now when we are looking at replacing a good chunk of congress could get worse. I am not saying don't get them out all I am saying is know who you are getting in.

Many thanks to all the Posters who gave their points of view etc.

It's much appreciated and I feel that at least in a basic way, I have some idea of the Pros and Cons of what President Obama is trying to introduce.

And Yes, it's nothing like our System here in the UK.

What I don't still understand now is that if the numbers being quoted are true then surely the US Govt could afford to simply 'conjure' up a Healthcare system along the lines of the UK System and then the ongoing taxation will be (comparatively) negligable.

The Tax here in the UK is called "National Insurance" and it is a very small amount that is taken from all UK workers paying Income Tax and is used to provide the NHA and the other associated Social Services (Unemployment Payments, OAP Pensions etc.)

Any more infor would be appreciated in order for me to more understand the issues as I'm still leaning towards thinking of the Bill as a positive thing for Americans rather than simply a cynical way for the Govt to pay off the National Debt??

But, again, many thanks for shedding light on what is clearly a difficult and sensitive subject for Americans of all backgrounds.

[edit on 21-12-2009 by crichton13]

reply to post by Just Listening


JL, thanks for that.

For info, the UK system is completely the same until one reaches step 5.

The Health Authority for Grammy HAS to provide the surgery regardles of her age, disposition etc.

We do have waiting lists here and some forms of surgery can be what we call a "Post-code Lottery" as to how long one waits ( I think you would call them Zip codes??!!) but the Govt compells the regional Authorities by way of targets for many different performance indicators and some quite severe financial penalties can and have been dished out to the more worse under performing Trusts.

[edit on 21-12-2009 by crichton13]

If defeated the ptb will attempt to take over the states. They already control medicine through the AMA. That's why we've got so many autistic children. We need to get moving now and get people involved with their state governments. Support your candidates, let them know that they can rely on financial campaign support from the people and not to buckle in to the pressures from the globalists. Send your state reps and state senators at least a few dollars before the next election and encourage your neighbors to do the same. Take back America, starting with your own state.

Originally posted by Raven Hemp
all I am saying is know who you are getting in.

Look who we got in for Prez. He straight out lied about what he was planning to do. How do we prevent out and out liars from getting elected? I sure voted for him. What was not to like. And I am so so sorry.

reply to post by MidnightDStroyer

This health care bill scares the crap out of me. The little freedoms that we have left are being taking away one by one. If this is passed taxes will sky rocket and we will lose the freedom of choosing our doctors very quickly.

If you are not a liberal in your twenties you have no heart, but if you are not a conservative by the time you reach forty you have no brain
Ben Franklin

I am so pissed about this healthcare bill I could scream. It expands Medicaid(welfare in case you did not know what that is)to 50 million people. cuts Medicare(old people insurance) cuts funding to nursing homes and those of us that do have insurance could be taxed on it and our premiums are going to go up to pay for all this other bull####.

In recent times I've stopped reading or posting in these sort of threads because, quite frankly, it's an exercise in futility to debate people who have their minds made up or simply regurgitate partisan talking points. It's hard to determine at this point if it's just a political argument or a quasi-religious belief.

However, this thread's central theme, if people have since forgotten, was about something I enjoy studying: jurisprudence.

The OP, quoting a latter that someone allegedly sent to Washington, mentioned the illegality and unconstitutional nature of mandated health care. The argument this person makes, citing cases such as Linder v. United States and Lambert v. Yellowley (incorrectly spelled as Yellowly), is that the federal government doesn't have the power to take control of medical practices.

It's important to keep in mind that what the bill would do is mandate insurance, and that in itself doesn't have anything to do with medical practices. Having medical insurance simply insures, pardon the redundancy, people to have a means to pay for a treatment, if they choose to get it, period.

MidnightDStroyer says that he "oppose[s] any Federal Health Plan because they have to violate the Law to even propose any." He then mentions the 1st and 2nd Amendments presumably arguing that Congress and the federal Government can't infringe on a person's rights. I have to ask- what right would mandated health care be infringing upon?

Some people argue mandated health care would be unconstitutional because "it's not in the Constitution." There's no right to be uninsured either. It's also interesting to note, for example, that most, if not all, states require people to have car insurance in order to drive. Following the same - flawed in my opinion - logic, requiring people to have car insurance would be unconstitutional as well. And it's beyond reasonable, in my opinion, to require people to have car insurance if they are going to drive.

What is in the Constitution, however, under Article I Section 8 is "The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States." Health care without a doubt falls under the general welfare clause.

Some might argue that it would be illegal and unconstitutional to make people pay a penalty (through taxes) for not getting health care. That already happens with Social Security. The precedent has long ago been set, there's no reason then to expect the Supreme Court to declare mandated health care unconstitutional for this reason. Moreover, it will be possible to apply for hardship deferment considering the financial situation of each person.

For over 70 years the Supreme Court has upheld all government taxes as long as they are reasonable. I don't see any sound reason for a tax to pay the cost of a system for the common welfare of the United States, health care, to be deemed unreasonable.

There might be many reasons to argue that the health care bill isn't good. After looking at the arguments of unconstitutionality, quite frankly, that doesn't seem to be a legitimate one.

thanks converge..

I suspected this was an indirect anti obama thread...so be it, but your explanation confuses me more...sounds like a good idea!!







edit.typo..

[edit on 21-12-2009 by benoni]

So you have stated yourself that you have no alternative solution and as far as I can tell the only conservative solution is allow insurance companies to compete along state lines. Yes this may allow for more competitive rates but it won't fix any inherent flaws with privatized health care.

So you are opposed to any so called unconstitutional institutions within the federal government? I suppose the FDA, the USPS and the CDC are on your hit list as well? How have these institutions wronged you or others? You claim the Federal government ruins everything it touches but I think the above examples are just a few of the many successes the government has had.

Aside from your claims of the reform being unconstitutional, what specific problems do you have with the reform?

* States could "opt out" of the proposed government insurance plan.

Seems fair to me.

You have also claimed that the insurance reform would kill more Americans than it helps. How specifically with emphasis on specifically would this happen? Death Panels? This is such a ridiculous claim and I here it tossed around quite a lot by conservatives but they never specifically say how the reform would go about causing the deaths of Americans.

reply to post by converge


Converge's response was JUST what I was looking for.

My issue was "how can a universal US Bill to provide Medical treatment to the masses be wrong" - I have read as much as I can on the issue via news etc. but still did not understand the underlying, essentially more important issues that affect the common American Person.

That seems to be, the erosion of the rights of the 'self' to provide for and decide for the individual WITHOUT 'Government' intervention.

It does appear to be the case that certain sections of the American populace would be happy to have no central Government at all. This seem to be an athema to real democracy from my simple view?

Even the Greeks, who, cannot be argued against, were the designers of our current 'Democratic' processes, ALWAYS agreed that a core of Central Government, to work for the Population was the only way to go and therefore, those Govoners, should be elected by the Population according to their Political Manifesto's.

Seriously, could America operate as it does now, if it had limited and/or NO central Government yet operated with 50 somthing separate political entities all vying to rule the Continent?

It just seems all such a waste of effort considering the problems America has internally let alone the issues currently afflicting the Planet....

Many thanks indeed.