Avatar, Great Achievement, or a Liberal/Communist Indoctrination Campaign?

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


Did you read my posts? I was using it as a point, that two people can create an aesthetically pleasing piece, but there is something on a subconscious level that separates something like The School of Athens from the stuff cranked out for sale at Garden Variety or TJMaxx stores, same as there is a separation between an untalented set of scribbles and a Mondrian, or a Klee. I see no misstep there.

BTW, do show me where i said every movie is trying to indoctrinate people....

I don't recall making that accusation... though based on your comments on this topic, I can't imagine you not attacking any movie that espouses a left wing message with such a silly argument.

That said, I believe that it is a tad bit (read - very much) ridiculous for Cameron to bash capitalism when his whole career has been spent building up expensive film technology, widening the gap between the independent filmmaker and the Hollywood system.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse

Do you think most parents are going to have the time to talk to their children about this movie and tell them "Capitalism, and Imperialistic U.S.A. is not really that evil"?.... Movies at one time used to put the U.S..A. in a good light, and Americans as the good guys. This movie is doing the oposite....

Well, from what I have seen of it so far, I would say that the special fx are going to bury any political message.

I mean, how many kids are going to come home from the movie and become political activists? You know 'Hey Dad, how do I start a grassroots movement to subdue capitalist imperialism and corporate hegemony that oppress the native peoples'?

Now, weigh that number to the younguns who come home and want either the video game or the large models at Toys R Us.

If Mr. Cameron really wants to dabble in rabble rousing, he could make a dandy flick from scratch along the lines of those of Michael Moore or the classic standard of such, An Inconvenient Truth. Those kinds of films do fairly well, drawing in those who already have an axe to grind... which is exactly the type you would want for fomenting that kind of unrest.

I sympathize with your concern about how Hollywood and the entertainment industry has all but forsaken the nation that gave birth to it... and I agree. But i think it is basically apolitical and more a for-profit thing.

Originally posted by Someone336


That said, I believe that it is a tad bit (read - very much) ridiculous for Cameron to bash capitalism when his whole career has been spent building up expensive film technology, widening the gap between the independent filmmaker and the Hollywood system.

AGREED!

Originally posted by redoubt
...............
I mean, how many kids are going to come home from the movie and become political activists? You know 'Hey Dad, how do I start a grassroots movement to subdue capitalist imperialism and corporate hegemony that oppress the native peoples'?

Now, weigh that number to the younguns who come home and want either the video game or the large models at Toys R Us.
...............

For crying out loud.... How many children now-a-days are more inclined to the left-wing propaganda, than let's say 40 years ago?... Even children who have conservative, or Republican parents. I am not saying that some children from liberal parents don't become conservative, but for the most part we are seeing the reverse.

We have even environmental groups using children to spread their view of environmentalism.. Mortifying parents for forgetting to recycle one day, or forgetting to turn off a light?....just to "save the polar bears"....

Children are like sponges, and even when you don't think they understand an ideology being presented, or the deeper meaning in a conversation, they do understand what is being said, and what is being portrayed.

reply to post by Someone336


Well, now-a-days there is less, and less differentiation between real Art, and the abstract painting done by an animal, or by a drunken bum, and such scribbling is being passed as "Art".

That in itself diminishes the meaning of Art. That's what I have been saying.

In the times of Leonardo Da Vinci, if you tried to pass "abstract paintings" as "Art", you would be laughed at for making such a mockery of Art.

Now-a-days anything can pass as "Art".

[edit on 17-12-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

reply to post by TheAgentNineteen

The Spaniards are the ones who taught the Natives a widely used language, which in turn allowed for us to translate and record their history. If it were not for the vast civilizations which spread about, and who subsequently taught their standardized alphabets, customs, and record keeping to those whom they met, then we would hardly even have a fraction of the Historic knowledge which we currently possess.

Uh, no the Spaniards burned nearly all recorded history from the peoples they conquered, forced them to convert to Christianity, and then made them drop their native language for Spanish. They smashed their heathen art, executed anyone who wouldn't tow the Christian and Spanish Crown, and tried their hardest to completely erase the culture and replace it with a more "civilized" Spanish-Christian one. The Mayan language still isn't completely understood, and what we know of their entire language and culture comes from literally three and a half surviving manuscripts and some decayed ruins in Central America (the ones that survived the defacement by the Bishop of Yucatan).

Oh but thank God the conquistadors brutally crushed their culture and destroyed their heritage; we would have known far less about them if all of that was intact right now.

As to the movie, it's pretty common practice to mirror events that have happened in the past to create a story for the present. Does anyone deny that Americans haven't done this before? Do you really think any Americans are going to walk out of the theater and say, "Wow, I hate myself and my country!"

If anything, I've gotten from the movie that the individual has the power to affect change and make a decision that's ethically right in the face of overwhelming opposition. How is that Communist? Do Communists typically stand up to the majority and give them the middle finger in order to protect the little guy? Are Communist regimes typically willing to put themselves in danger in order to protect a weaker minority? I don't think so...but I could be wrong.

And I still think we're analyzing this way too much. This is all about selling toys and the next Xbox game while Cameron can get his rocks off finally doing the movie he's always wanted to do.

Lefto- poofo- pinko- greeny- lover here *waves*


I've actually watched the movie, and it rocks, the story is almost irrelavant, the imagary is nothing short of a work of art.

Infact the story line is kinda return of the Jedi meshed with Last of the Mohicans....So you should take exception to those Heros journeys (really thats the classic story telling formula he has applied)

And if anyone actually pays attantion to a left wing agenda as opposed to being blown away by the most visually stunning art since Picasso, then the movie was not made for you......and nor is a art gallery.....

Wait, what? James Cameron portrayed Capitalism as evil?

He portrayed greed, stealing other people's land and property, killing other people for your personal gain, destroying the environment and other cultures as evil.

Are those things equivalent to Capitalism to you? Are greed and theft and murdering and destruction inherent parts of Capitalism?

i haven't seen the movie yet .

no matter, i like cameron's movies.

it is a story, that's all. besides, he couldn't use the chinese as the bad guys or iran, right? lol, what would that do for tic sales?

My friends, this movie in not about communism. This movie is about Iraq and Afghanistan. This is another anti-bush movie. It just happens to be a little late that's all. Apparently, the only reason that we go anywhere with our military is because we want their precious earth based resources (new age oil). The so called “primitives” are just wanting to live their lives in peace and tranquility (what a bunch of hogwash).

You guys have to get beyond the obvious down with capitalism agenda and see the bigger picture. Obama needs massive public sentiment to leave Iraq and Afghanistan, this movie helps put into the masses the idea that we are only in Iraq for oil and we need to leave the poor suffering people there alone (sob sob). Its a white and black (I mean blue) portrayal of “evil corporate backed military greed” against the “perfect, innocent, and well intentioned indigenous tribals.” It has only one purpose and that is to enable greater public sentiment for leaving Iraq and Afghanistan. Hey, don't get me wrong, I never wanted to go there in the first place, but of course “Big Hollywood” thought going to Iraq and Afghanistan was a great idea back then and massively persuaded the people with movies like “Pearl Harbor” (released in 2001.) Funny how 911 was always refereed to as “another pearl harbor” by the media even thought it was nothing the same about it. And as well, “The Sum of Fears” (movie about a terrorist nuclear attack) also was to debut in 2001. Strange coincidence isn't it? Ha Ha Ha, only if you believe media the lies.

So, let me predict the future for you if this massive propaganda effort is successful. Oboma will finally offer a withdrawal time line and say something about how the poor innocent, benevolent, and suffering people of Iraq ans Afghanistan really now want us to leave and we should leave them in peace. If however, the movie doesn't do so well, then holly wood will offer another, but low budget cheaper, string of black verses white (or some other color) “corporate greedy military forces” hurting “innocent indigenous well meaning civilians” movies that garners more public support for withdrawn than the singular massive release of Avatar did.

I for one won't pay to see it. I won't pay for my force feed propaganda thank you. Give it to me free on DVD and then I might watch it.

Don't be fooled, there are no big budget movies in Hollywood that don't also have a big budget agendas attached to them. Money, Power, and influence, always have, and always will, be tied to political agendas, conspiracies, lies, manipulation, and corruption.

reply to post by Isis_Is_I


I went to the world premiere in London ... I cannot say that I go the same from the movie.

The effects were cool and the general message of "dont go to other lands and steal their resources or they will fight you" but other than that it was just standard???

Pure communism - the natural way free people organize. That's what people seek, community and freedom. Read the definition of communism. It has nothing to do with Cuba, Russia. It never existed. Except - before "civilization" :


"No Arguments, no Intreaties, nor Tears of their Friends and Relations, could persuade many of them to leave their new Indian Friends and Acquaintance; several of them that were by the Caressings of their Relations persuaded to come Home, in a little Time grew tired of our Manner of living, and run away again to the Indians, and ended their Days with them. On the other Hand, Indian Children have been carefully educated among the English, cloathed and taught, yet, I think, there is not one Instance, that any of these, after they had Liberty to go among their own People, and were come to Age, would remain with the English, but returned to their own Nations, and became as fond of the Indian Manner of Life as those that knew nothing of a civilized Manner of Living. And, he concludes, what he says of this particular prisoner exchange “has been found true on many other Occasions.”

Benjamin Franklin was even more pointed: When an Indian child is raised in white civilization, he remarks, the civilizing somehow does not stick, and at the first opportunity he will go back to his red relations, from whence there is no hope whatever of redeeming him. But when white persons of either sex have been taken prisoners young by the Indians, and have lived a while among them, tho’ ransomed by their Friends, and treated with all imaginable tenderness toprevail with them to stay among the English, yet in a Short time they become disgusted with our manner of life, and the care and pains that are necessary to support it, and take the firstgood Opportunity of escaping again into the Woods, from whence there is no reclaiming them."
Prisoner Exchange

"The Pawnee : They were a well-disciplined people, maintaining public order under many trying circumstances. And yet they had none of the power mechanisms that we consider essential to a well-ordered life. No orders were ever issued...Time after time I tried to find a case of orders given and there were none. Gradually I began to realize that democracy is a very personal thing which like charity, begins at home. Basically it means not being coerced and having no need to coerce anyone else. The Pawnee learned this way of living in the earliest beginning of his life. In the detailed events of every day as a child, he began his development as a disciplined and free man or as a women who felt her dignity and her independence to be inviolate"

---

"The Creeks are just honest, liberal and hospitable to strangers; considerate, loving and affectionate to their wives and relations; fond of their children; industrious, frugal, temperate and persevering; charitable and forbearing. I have been weeks and months among them and in their towns, and never observed the least sign of contention or wrangling: never saw an instance of and Indian beating his wife, or even reproving her in anger. In this case they stand as examples of reproof to the most civilized nations . . . for indeed their wives merit their esteem and the most gentle treatment, they being industrious, frugal, loving and affectionate . . .Their internal police and family economy. . .incontrovertibly place those people in an illustrious point of view: their liberality, intimacy and friendly intercourse with one another, without any restraint of ceremonious formality; as if they were even insensible of the use of necessity of associating the passions of affections of avarice, ambition or covetousness. . . How are we to account for their excellent policy in civil government; it cannot derive its influence from coercive laws, for they have no such artificial system."

Columbus and other Cannibals


The Gospel of Consumption

Machines can save labor, but only if they go idle when we possess enough of what they can produce. In other words, the machinery offers us an opportunity to work less, an opportunity that as a society we have chosen not to take. Instead, we have allowed the owners of those machines to define their purpose: not reduction of labor, but “higher productivity”—and with it the imperative to consume virtually everything that the machinery can possibly produce.

[edit on 18-12-2009 by pai mei]

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


What is the world coming to when someonee can't just sit down and enjoy an action packed movie? I mean seriously i don't much care about the message of Avatar, i just loved the truly astounding effects. From the beautifully shot scenes, sweepings landscapes, vivid colours and of course the new 3D cinema thing.

The story when boiled down is rather lame, but i won't put up any spoilers

Why do I get the felling that there's hordes of people with skewed perception of "True Communism" (which should be called True Socialism, which then again should be called a True Anarchist Socialism, where no rich person rules over poor ones => a socialism that existed before we wiped it off Aftica and all indigineus people, and no... those people would not consider themselfs anything like the Russians during the Cold War, but you woudn't admit that, would you) just waitting for movies to rant all over the internet how the director is a filthy communist [insert your fav. word here] that wants to DESTORY AMERICA.

It seriously is angerining my blood. Avatar is about corruption of greed and taking what you need from people without their consent, about a silent war "our" corporate/political leaders are now waging agaings indigineus people of the world (now we want oil, beforehand we just wanted land... perhaps they knew we would need oil soon).

But everything has to taken down to the speakers level. Because, incidentally, our cognitive functions use our perceptions and memories, and experiences, to make a final judgment.

Cameron spreading Communist ideals? You gotta be kidding me. I've spend my life in Poland during the PZPR rule. I know communism and that is nothing like the "supposed" message of Avatar.

Th post is a rant of a scared and terrified human being (we all did it once or more times in our lives).

Kids becoming Communists? Kids like sponges? Sure. Will they eventually stay the way till their deaths? No frikkin' way. I've changed my mind many times in my life. A person sticking to one ideal no matter the reasons - is just plain stupid.

Did the Communists exploit people for the good of the few? Yeah.
Did the Capitalists exploit people for the good of the few? Of course yes. And Cameron did Avatar they way he did it is because he is speaking from his perspective. If he was a awakend man in Russia he probably tried to do a similar thing about Communism (which is loved by Russians).

See? He is just speaking about something he is closes to. Hence the direct link to America and the two recent wars.

I hope less people fall for that cr**. You know when you have communism in America? When your meat shelves in your local market will be empty. Just like it was in Poland for many, many years.

And no... Cuba was and still is in much better shape any of the Easter European countires under the foot of the brother Russian were.

[edit on 2009/12/18 by krzyspmac]

[edit on 2009/12/18 by krzyspmac]

reply to post by drwizardphd


Actually, when you look back, what he was doing was not bad, communism is now pervasive in our society, groups like ANSWER are pushing for communism today using ignorant liberals as tools.

reply to post by ElectricUniverse

Why is it that James Cameron doesn't blame Communism for the destruction of the environment, which is 100 times worse than anything Capitalism has done?

Because at it's heart in it's purest form, this isn't what communism does. Historically, yes communism has received a bad rap, but this isn't due to the tenets of communistic philosophy, it's due to power hungry dictatorial regimes pretending to run a communistic government.

I view communism as a very powerful tool and political structure where everyone is equal in power and control of the government. Think of it as democracy on steroids. The only people I've seen having ill thoughts towards communism are greedy self righteous power hungry imbeciles who don't understand the core concepts of the political structure.

Look past the past behavior of dictatorial leaders claiming to be running a communist government and look at just the core concepts of communism as if it were run properly. It really isn't that bad irregardless of past leaders pretending to have communist governments.

[edit on 18-12-2009 by sirnex]

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse

Originally posted by jimmyx

c'mon sky...taking something by force is capitalism?? even you don't believe that.

I guess the Communist U.S.S.R. was Capitalistic, and Imperialistic when they set out to conquer the Middle East in the end of the 1970s, and 1980s...

Are you aware that U.S.S.R. stand for " United soviet Socialist Republic?

Not Communist Republic!

Socialist Republic.

The USSR never considered themselves Communists.

Rich and Powerful people in America were the ones calling them Communists.

Originally posted by SweetRevenge
Who really cares? Capitalism really doesn't seem to be doing the trick anymore, so why not?

That's the problem most people expect someone else to do the "trick" for them. That is why communism is so alluring like fly paper, communism will do it all for you, all you have to do is obey them, and you WILL obey them!

Under capitalism, you do your own thing, prosper or fail and try try again because you are free to do so. Capitalism is failing because socialism/communism’s propaganda/lies are winning over the sheeple.

Originally posted by sirnex


I view communism as a very powerful tool and political structure where everyone is equal in power and control of the government. Think of it as democracy on steroids. The only people I've seen having ill thoughts towards communism are greedy self righteous power hungry imbeciles who don't understand the core concepts of the political structure.

And will it be you that runs it properly?
Communism is a fool’s game. Humans will never treat each other equally and to believe otherwise is naive to say the very least.
Who will create and build things if there is no incentive, no payback? Who will do the dirty and hard work?

Originally posted by ElectricUniverse
He has embraced the Communist ideas that "Imperialism, and Capitalism are a problem", and he is blaming MAINLY the United States....

And I take it that you disagree with that? You think Imperialism and unrestrained Capitalism are good things? And that the US is innocent of such behaviors?

Imperialism - The policy of extending a nation's authority by territorial acquisition or by the establishment of economic and political hegemony over other nations.

I know Cameron's new movie is a fantasy, but he's clearly not the only one living in a fantasy world...

I can't wait to see the movie.