Jerusalem Temple VS Messiah

reply to post by pumpkinorange

What do you make of the "holy place"?
In
Matthew 24:15
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

If I understand correctly, this was said to the same disciples he told to stay in Jerusalem for awhile, but then to go into all nations preaching. Maybe this was a signal to leave.

In any case Jerusalem isn't a safe place to be. Even Zachariah said it would be a cup of drunkenness driving the nations mad, as if possessing the city was a very desirable thing. Maybe by controlling holy sites would give great power? kind of like Hitler in "Raiders of the Lost Ark", like "If I possess all these relics of power I will be invincible in battle"

In any case, I'd just as soon wait for the city not made with hands, that has no temple because God and the Lamb are the temple, before making any pilgrimage to Jerusalem.

reply to post by queenannie38

12. The disciples said to Jesus, "We know that you are going to leave us. Who will be our leader?"

Jesus said to them, "No matter where you are you are to go to James the Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being."

from the Gospel of (Judas Didymus) Thomas

I'm just talking off the cuff here.

JN 7:2 But when the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles was near, 3 Jesus' brothers said to him, "You ought to leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples may see the miracles you do. 4 No one who wants to become a public figure acts in secret. Since you are doing these things, show yourself to the world." 5 For even his own brothers did not believe in him.

Jesus loved his brothers as much as he loved any one else. If James was not a believer, imagine what a slick thing it would be to have the disciples constantly going to James to have their disputes settled. Eventually he would be prepared to risk everything to make his pronouncement.
(Just an idea)

Conclusions and Final Advice

Thank you all for your input and discussion. I have learned much through this process. Thank you again.

I will conclude this thread now with my own observations. Angels and spirits have been instructed by God to serve mankind ever since Adam was created. Man is not here to serve angels. Neither should men attempt to control angels in an enslaving sort of way.

For a short period of history, in a relatively small part of the globe, there was an angel who was given a Name by God to give a law and lead a people. He went by the title YHWH. That is a title whereby this people could know God slightly. God is not fully known by any people at any time until the last day.

The time has passed for God to be known through angels, for a man has lived on this earth by whom God can be known, Jesus the anointed one. The title of Lord is now his. Any looking back to buildings and angels is no more valid than idolatry or demon worship.

As we live on this earth we are to show God in some small way to each other in love and care. There is a spirit from God to help us. Where love is, there is the spirit. Wisdom without love is useless. The law without love is useless. The receiving of any gift without a willingness to share with any who can benefit is useless.

There is an enemy spirit who accuses and divides and leads people to hurt and kill one another. That one is our clear enemy. He cares for people not at all. That one would just as soon we all killed each other until none are left. Have nothing to do with that.

Any teaching pertaining to God which requires a massive library to explain is suspect. Abraham did not carry books. The disciples of Jesus did not go out with donkey loads of books. Many things some Christians attempt to teach are suspect. If you cannot explain as one person to another some teaching, then maybe that teaching is not worth much. Also, any teaching which can stand only if unquestioned.

I am concluding this thread because I don't want to be stuck here fielding nit picking questions. You have a mind. You have access to books. You have access to each other for discussion. If another important question arises I may take it up for examination.

Thank you all again.
Love and peace to you



[edit on 23-12-2009 by pthena]

your word is not final nor the words you attempt to express as truth such.

if jesus is your lord he is your lord to be a temple as you have expressed; to know god but not fully.for it is fully foolish to believe your "lord" is complete god.

you speak of enslavement of spirits but mention needing them for the process of expression; thus the true weakness of the church you belong and the rod that will be your burn.

you speak of an enemy spirit but as divided as your church is your expression is adequate; and a reflection of the way you view your god and temple thusly, the expression you have of this "spirit".

you further disrespect other "churches" and promote the burnings which occured by your church in places such as germany and "alexandria".further it is good your church attempted to wipe out knowledge for your attempt to use the knowledge of abraham as an example thus proves your "initiation" within the church you belong.

your conclusion to a failed attempt at reteaching HISStory is a grand expression of a repeat of same actions within your church and another nail within your own coffin and release from a sarcophagus intended as my death bed.in short your thread is a failure; as are the attempts to be what you are not persistently in time, i await your next defeat.

yours truly
the son of god

reply to post by Ausar

your word is not final nor the words you attempt to express as truth such.

Of course my word is not final. Any truth expressed in words is relative. No expression is complete.

if jesus is your lord he is your lord to be a temple as you have expressed; to know god but not fully.for it is fully foolish to believe your "lord" is complete god.

I don't remember implying that my Lord is complete God. There is One God to whom we belong. Jesus as the temple as I expressed is the Man through whom we know God as humans. He is one of us, and reflects the knowledge of God appropriate to us humans, as human language and sympathy is our realm of existence. As the ascended one he knows better than we who have not ascended.

you speak of enslavement of spirits but mention needing them for the process of expression; thus the true weakness of the church you belong and the rod that will be your burn.

The attempt to enslave is foolish. If at one time God decided to be expressed in this way, that is His decision. My premise is that that way is inferior, but necessary for a time, until one came who would provide a better way. My premise also is that he has come, and therefore the clear better choice would be to know God through him.

I didn't attempt to identify myself to any church(identifiable sect) therefore any burn of the rod is appropriate to me alone, for my sect comprises me alone.

you speak of an enemy spirit but as divided as your church is your expression is adequate; and a reflection of the way you view your god and temple thusly, the expression you have of this "spirit".

you further disrespect other "churches" and promote the burnings which occured by your church in places such as germany and "alexandria".further it is good your church attempted to wipe out knowledge for your attempt to use the knowledge of abraham as an example thus proves your "initiation" within the church you belong.

Historical actions I don't approve of cannot be applied to me except in the sense that I also am a man just as are the people who did these things, any collective punishment I must also accept. The various tribes of man that are my blood have been involved in many suppressions of knowledge. My blood is that of victors in wars and losers in war, oppressive killers and the oppressed, those who stole tribal knowledge and those from whom tribal knowledge has been stolen. Am I diminished for lack of knowledge? Yes, as are we all.

your conclusion to a failed attempt at reteaching HISStory is a grand expression of a repeat of same actions within your church and another nail within your own coffin and release from a sarcophagus intended as my death bed.in short your thread is a failure; as are the attempts to be what you are not persistently in time, i await your next defeat.

You have made no attempt to identify your own sect or church. Or what historic actions you approve or disapprove. In short, you have not shown your hand at all. You have not presented a positive position, only negative. Mine was negative and positive. Since my thread was not an attempt at complete victory, I can't say it is a complete defeat.

yours truly
the son of god

Your signature is ambiguous

yours truly
one of many 100% human sons of God

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by jonathannas0187

Originally posted by jonathannas0187
JN 2:19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."

I wonder what would have happened if the Jerusalem leaders had done what Jesus told them to do, and torn down the temple. But they didn't. They considered the temple of stone to be more important than an innocent man's life.

LAinhabitant:
My understanding of John 2:19 is that Jesus was speaking of himself as being the temple and stating that they could destroy Him and in 3 days He would be resurrected. Jesus was the the first member of the spiritual temple joined together by Him. We are the temple of the living God, the body in whom God dwells. Jesus is the the head of the body and the rock on which the church (temple) was built. (Mat 16:18)

Jesus has become our mediator, our High Priest.

1Cor 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?



[edit on 11-8-2010 by LAinhabitant]

S&F this is a good thread.

good work.

do you believe there needs to be a certain group of people who will take a stand in jerusalem to oppose any such building of temples?

[edit on 11-8-2010 by iamnot]

reply to post by LAinhabitant
I didn't quite have the nerve to revive this thread myself, because there are certain things I'm not proud of. Done is done though.

Contrasting concepts of temples:

vss 21&22 of John 2 I believe to be margin notes that were later inserted into the text upon later transcription.

Rather than Matt 16:8 I would look to:

1PE 2:4 As you come to him, the living Stone--rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him-- 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

1Peter I take to be a pseudepigraphical letter written by a follower of the school of Paul, which is an attempt to prove Paul and Peter had the same teachings. As such I would take it as a summary of Paul's teachings while at the same time a more mature presentation, for I think sometimes a student does surpass the teacher, having gotten that head start from the teacher which was not available to the teacher himself.

The first Peter teaching then has Jesus as the living stone, corner stone, cap stone, stone to stumble over. The followers, like The Stone, are also living stones; forming as a unity the spiritual temple and the priesthood at the same time. The sacrifices are spiritual as opposed to physical, such as animals or grain, Jesus serves as mediator, insuring the acceptability of the sacrifice.

The above paragraph represents to me the accepted and acceptable definition of the Church and the Christian temple. Any one who claims a stone temple with blood sacrifices to be more enduring than the one described above is in no way a Christian, in my judgment.

Christian Zionists do believe and teach that the Christian Temple as described above is only temporary, for a short time, and the stone temple is actually the superior and lasting temple. Therefore in my judgment Christian Zionists are not Christians.

reply to post by iamnot

do you believe there needs to be a certain group of people who will take a stand in jerusalem to oppose any such building of temples?

Some one certainly should, even if only two witnesses stand to block it in Jerusalem and are killed for their efforts. As for me, I am on the forum attempting to block it, for whatever good that amounts to.

Originally posted by pthena As for me, I am on the forum attempting to block it, for whatever good that amounts to.

Count me as another one.
In a couple of weeks, I'll be writing a thread on Revelation ch11 vv1-2 which will take the same line on the Temple that you're taking.
For what my own feeble efforts are worth.

[edit on 11-8-2010 by DISRAELI]

reply to post by DISRAELI

In a couple of weeks, I'll be writing a thread on Revelation ch11 vv1-2 which will take the same line on the Temple that you're taking.

Thank you. I looked at your profile and saw that you're a big Revelation student. That book scares me because it seems to me that when people set out to fulfill the prophecies themselves, they end up becoming that which is warned of.

reply to post by pthena

most excellent reading and thought developing....the judah bunch failed to spread the word so a mystery happened that is only found in the new covenant...the church....a perenthesis....then the deal with the jewishwill start-up again and they will know who the messiah is.
i see your point about the temple...i never caught that.

reply to post by GBP/JPY

the judah bunch failed to spread the word so a mystery happened that is only found in the new covenant...the church....a perenthesis....then the deal with the jewishwill start-up again and they will know who the messiah is.

That's the dispensational view in a nut shell. If you are a dispensationalist I'd like to know if you see any value in going back to stone temples and animal sacrifices. If you aren't then we can consider this as just a second line.

reply to post by pthena


That's a funny thing you say.. because actually it is Solomon, building the temple..

Great thread. Having been privileged enough to have ascertained these truths by meditative transgression, and to honor them as self evident.

reply to post by Lunar_Secrets
I was clicking and clicking trying to get the video to play, then realized it was a picture

reply to post by tauschen
I'll try to remember to visit your thread. Meditative transgression by the name of it, sounds to be an interesting mode of discovery.

Thank you sir. And I am much looking foward to your future threads and posting what helpful pieces I may have for the members here on this site as well. Have a harmonious day. God bless

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by LAinhabitant
I didn't quite have the nerve to revive this thread myself, because there are certain things I'm not proud of. Done is done though.


LAinhabitant:
My apology for reviving it.

"How few there are who have courage enough to own their faults, or resolution enough to mend them" Ben Franklin. It shows something of your character that you have the ability and wisdom to admit you make mistakes like the rest of us and are human.

Contrasting concepts of temples:

vss 21&22 of John 2 I believe to be margin notes that were later inserted into the text upon later transcription.

LAinhabitant: This is plausible.


Rather than Matt 16:8 I would look to:

1PE 2:4 As you come to him, the living Stone--rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him-- 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

LAinhabitant: Great reference!

1Peter I take to be a pseudepigraphical letter written by a follower of the school of Paul, which is an attempt to prove Paul and Peter had the same teachings. As such I would take it as a summary of Paul's teachings while at the same time a more mature presentation, for I think sometimes a student does surpass the teacher, having gotten that head start from the teacher which was not available to the teacher himself.

The first Peter teaching then has Jesus as the living stone, corner stone, cap stone, stone to stumble over. The followers, like The Stone, are also living stones; forming as a unity the spiritual temple and the priesthood at the same time. The sacrifices are spiritual as opposed to physical, such as animals or grain, Jesus serves as mediator, insuring the acceptability of the sacrifice.

The above paragraph represents to me the accepted and acceptable definition of the Church and the Christian temple. Any one who claims a stone temple with blood sacrifices to be more enduring than the one described above is in no way a Christian, in my judgment.

Christian Zionists do believe and teach that the Christian Temple as described above is only temporary, for a short time, and the stone temple is actually the superior and lasting temple. Therefore in my judgment Christian Zionists are not Christians.

LAinhabitant: With so many Christian denominations and interpretations today, errors in translations, intentional tampering et cetera of the Holy Bible it is becoming more difficult to ascertain the truth. I believe my Father knows the intentions of my heart as I try to follow the teachings of Jesus-to love my neighbor as myself, treat others as I would like to be treated, and forgive others (even those who know not what they do) as I wish Father to forgive me. I believe Jesus Christ gave himself as the atoning blood sacrifice for mankind and the only thing another stone temple will do is cause more strife amongst the descendants of Abraham.

No matter what path a person is on, they usually believe that the way they are following is the "right" one. When trying to get someone to understand a certain belief or something I hold to be truth that is different than theirs I try not to cast aspersions that may offend them and turn them away. I do find many people these days are not interested or open to seeking truth but are either blindly being followers or are stuck in traditions they can't let go of.

"Pray for the peace of Jerusalem" Psalm 122:6

reply to post by LAinhabitant
I started this thread last year, after spending many years away from Christianity. Plus, I wasn't at all up on recent critical scholarship. Plus, I was new to forums, completely unprepared for handling myself in a vast heterogeneous group of belief systems. It was all too easy for me to slip into Christian forms and modes of expression, that being what I am most familiar with. Then catching myself and pulling back a bit more than I should have.

I am actually glad I did this thread last year, because I probably wouldn't have been able to do it now. I find the main thrust to still be valid, so it does retain value.

More matured positions can be found in this thread The Beast and The Antichrist Have Been Revealed! which I sort of took over after a few pages. And here Is my God your God?

it is becoming more difficult to ascertain the truth.

We have available to us more than Jesus had. More technology, more internet, more critical and scientific scholarship.

When trying to get someone to understand a certain belief or something I hold to be truth that is different than theirs I try not to cast aspersions that may offend them and turn them away.

Many people turned away from Jesus when he pointed out certain hypocrisies, inconsistencies, and habits practiced by the religious elites, experts in the Torah.

I will tell you a secret. I don't write with such boldness to my sister, who is a Christian. The seeming anonymity of the internet lends a certain freedom of expression where communicating with actual loved ones is a bit more constrained. Rationalizing isn't exactly honesty. And yet I rationalize thus: She is safely in a denomination with many built in warning systems. That denomination has nothing in it to approve of building stone temples. Therefore I trust the education she has received in that denomination to take care of my sister. It is a compromise that I don't make for strangers, at least not intentionally.

I do find many people these days are not interested or open to seeking truth but are either blindly being followers or are stuck in traditions they can't let go of.

Exactly. Professional religionists (popes, bishops, priests, preachers, university professors, authors, lobbyists, politicians, media personalities, media corporations, mercenary corporations, military professionals, think tanks etc) have a vested interest in keeping the status quo.

It's quite easy to keep the status quo when a faith system is reduced to a list of beliefs on paper. Any one then, including government officials and cynical people who don't even really care, can look at the paper and spout out words in sequence to create the illusion that they care. And a large segment of the population is content with the easily repeated sequence of words and call it faith. We see it played out over and over every day. It's the easy way after all. Why give up the easy for the difficult?

"Pray for the peace of Jerusalem" Psalm 122:6

I have no place in any holy city. I care about people. Right now, people who have lived there a very long time are being kicked out by some who fancy themselves more special.

Tell me. If this is a Psalm of David and he's going to the house of the LORD, yet the temple wasn't built until more than 10 years after his death, where was he going?



[edit on 15-8-2010 by pthena]