Jerusalem Temple VS Messiah

reply to post by Ausar
I agree with what you say, except that they must be self aware in some way. Maybe I'm just hoping that they stop and examine what they do. If you can see it from a distance, maybe all they need is a mirror.

your actions as a church are clearly lost.i can see why this is the case as the one you refer to as "messiah" was a lawbreaker himself, and selfishly at that.

I went too far. Jesus is my messiah, and he is for any who want him, because he does offer to all. I can't go back and edit it out. Jesus is my messiah.

As for the church, there are many different groups that call themselves that. Not all make the headlines in the news. Each can be judged on its own merit. Any Christian can make a case for how well they reflect what they should, though words alone will not suffice.

i feel the sin is not in the acts of one who recreates a temple; but the acts committed against the institution the temple was founded upon after its inception.

I agree with what you said in a prior post, and hope you still feel this way.




[edit on 21-12-2009 by pthena]

Originally posted by pthena
Jerusalem Temple VS Messiah

my vote is:
MESSIAH

a temple made of man
not by man's hands
but rather the hand of GOD

i am not a dispensationalist, btw - i don't even consider myself a *christian* - although i have tried all my life to emulate Jesus and Jesus Christ/Christ Jesus - in all that i do i only care about doing as he instructed from the beginning...which is summed up so beautifully in Matthew chapters 5 through 7.

this is something that means so much to me that i never could, even as a child, reconcile what i felt in my heart with what most *christians* demonstrated (in error)...

how could i ever show that GOD is love if i associated myself, in any way, with hypocrisy!?

not that christians are, by default, hypocrites
nor are all hypocrites christian
but to say GOD is love and yet not love everyone that GOD loves is hypocrisy and fraud!

why work so hard in the name of Jesus and GOD only to negate every effort of my own by proclaiming myself by the word that has given GOD a bad name?

i have long felt sure that the true cause of atheism is christianity!

i remember, when i was younger, that it felt to me that if i ever did call myself a christian that i would feel compelled to wash my mouth out with soap!

it is far more important to me to share GOD with others for their own liberation than to have others consider me a *christian*
i'd rather they accuse of being in league with the devil (and you can be sure that's nothing unusual or rare!) than to doubt or resist GOD because of my actions or words!
love is more important than esteem!
what we give is what matters...not what we get!
we get nothing if we do it right!
not a thing!
the best reward of service is of no reward to self.

GOD's temple is in my soul and in my mind and in my heart and in my life!

there will be no "third temple" in Jerusalem or anywhere - at least not anything that anyone can measure or paint or burn or scorn!

but eventually every soul will be that third temple...i already am!
three days!
not forty years!


------------

sorry for the little burst of euphoria, there, my friend!
your bold declaration in this thread really has inspired me and made me happy

more and more these things will be realized, understood, and finally EXPERIENCED...

the fact that you speak out is one more beautiful tidbit of evidence, to my eyes, that what i believe to be the truth is not just my truth but the truth my Jesus taught me!

i can't say that everything you say is the same as what i think or feel nor is the way you've come to know what you know the way that i've arrived, too...

and really, it DOESN'T MATTER
those are just details

the important thing is that you can SEE that what you SEE is not all there is.
and you are not afraid to speak out.

i say to you:
LIVE LONG AND PROSPER...
may the force always be with you...
and i will see YOU, my friend, later on in *the* TEMPLE!

Originally posted by ntech
A question. With a simple answer. Yes. There is unfinished promises to be fulfilled. And he does want a Jewish temple rebuilt. It's simply not quite time for it yet.

Jesus was a Jew!
therefore, his body is/was/will be, TECHNICALLY, a qualified Jewish Temple!

half-joking but serious, too!


the time for that temple to be built was three days after it was torn down...three days after Jesus' body was killed, GOD raised his soul and spirit in LIFE.

Jesus is the new priest, remember?
after the Order of Melchizedek - which is an appointment that is both perfect as well as permanent.

there can be no better priest than he!
was that not the plan all along?

So what happened? The death of Elijah the prophet who Jesus Christ claimed was his John the Baptist triggered the curse. And now you know approximatly when the curse started.

Elijah NEVER died!

That is why your premise is wrong. There is still much to do.

like what?
and who's gonna do it?

The reconciliation has yet to happen.

then why was Paul instructing us, in 2 Corinthians 5: 18, that ours was the "ministry of reconciliation?"



GOD has got everything sewn up, the way i understand it
it is GOD who saves and none other
(and surely his arm is not shortened!)

not Jesus
not the Priests
not a temple of any religion

Don't cry, consorting james anyone? Good guy paul.

the Dead Sea Scrolls were the work of Jewish zealots who had much in common with, and may have been identical to, the early followers of Jesus led by his brother James the Just.
The Dead Sea Scrolls were the work of a marginal Jewish apocalyptic movement.
The historical details of Jesus’ life are essential. Sir William Muir speaking about the holy Qur’an says that. "There is probably in the world no other book which has remained twelve centuries with so pure text." I may also add Prophet Mohammad is also a historic personality, every event of whose life has been most carefully recorded and even the minutest details preserved intact for the posterity. His life and works are not wrapped in mystery.

“This people (Christians actually Paulians) honoreth me with their lips but their heart is far from me. But in vain they (Christians) do worship me, teaching the commandments of men (Paul).
(Pauline Christology:- New Testament a man made doctrines).
I'll say it again, “Look out that no one deceives you for many (million of Christians) will come in my name (Christ-ian) saying, ‘I am He’ (Christ is God), and will mislead many (Trillion).”

To the above:
When you say john the baptist you mean[Yowaan Yohanna Johanna], right? Are you Elia’s, (John the baptise]

Mark: 6 : 15,

“Others said, That it is Elia’s.
And others said, That it is that Prophet or
as one of the (three) Prophets.”

ALL THESE THREE PROPHETS HAD COME AND HAD GONE ONLY CHRIST WILL VISIT THE EARTH ONCE AGAIN TO CONFIRM THIS FACTS, BUT THE JEWS ARE STILL EXPECTING THREE PROPHETS TO COME.

mohammad:
Even the Jews and those who did not believe in his message, adopted him as the arbiter in their personal disputes by virtue of his perfect impartiality.

reply to post by 517.101

You're off topic.

Paul was very hated in his life. Evidently people hate him still. Maybe there's a conspiracy to keep people from reading him. That's not the topic here.

A true Muslim would know not to talk like disputing Jews and Nazarenes

[2.62] Those who believe, Jews, Nazarenes
and Sabaeans whoever believes in Allah and
the Last Day and does good deeds shall be
rewarded by their Lord; they have nothing to
fear nor are they saddened.

[2.113] The Jews say the Nazarenes are not
on anything, and the Nazarenes say it is the
Jews who are not on anything. Yet they both
read the Book. And those who do not know
say like their saying. Allah will judge between
them their disputes on the Day of
Resurrection.

[edit on 22-12-2009 by pthena]

The hatred of Paul

Since those who want to worship an angel refuse to leave Paul alone, I find it necessary to explain Paul's teaching that makes him so universally hated.

The conspiracy against Paul raises the question, "What was Paul teaching or writing that no one else wrote? Why is James the Just so highly regarded by one and all and Paul was despised and stoned by idol worshipers and unbelieving Jews alike?"

The answer comes down to this: James served an angel calling itself YHWH(LORD) and Paul taught Jesus as the one and only Lord.

Any one can look up James the Just and see that he was closely connected to the temple of stone in Jerusalem, as far as going into the holy of holies, where only the high priest was allowed to go, and then only once a year. Did James finally succeed in getting an angel into the stone temple like Solomon had? Then maybe the 70 weeks are over after all. Maybe James succeeded in setting up the abomination that makes desolate on the wing of a manmade cherubim. For what angel would even consent to being in the stone temple after the true one Lord had ascended to heaven?

Read John 14-17. Didn't Jesus say he was going away? Didn't he warn his disciples thay they would be hated by the world, and that the prince of this world would be loved and accepted by the world? But God loves his own as a father loves his children even when they are despised by the world. And fear not, for the prince of this world stands condemned already.

COL 2:18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19 He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

COL 2:20 Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21 "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22 These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.

COL 3:1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

Paul was hated by the idolaters because he taught that their worship of man made images was useless, even when they claimed, "we don't worship the image but the divine spark that dwells in it."

Paul was hated by the unbelieving Jews because he taught that their worship of man made temple was useless, even when they claimed, "we don't worship the temple but the divine spark that dwells in it."

Choose this day who you worship, God or stone. Who do you say bears a Name given by God, such that he represents God for all mankind? Is it Jesus who is Lord, or is it an angel?

As for me, Jesus is Lord and God's anointed.



[edit on 22-12-2009 by pthena]

reply to post by queenannie38

i remember, when i was younger, that it felt to me that if i ever did call myself a christian that i would feel compelled to wash my mouth out with soap!

The name Christian was a name of reproach, what people of the world jeeringly called the followers of Jesus. Don't call yourself Christian, but when others call you that as an insult, say thank you.

What About James?

But if that was the case with James the Just, how then can any Jew be saved? He was the best and most righteous they had. Is he lost then and condemned? Not at all.

His story continues: when a dispute arose among believers and unbelievers in Jerusalem, the temple chiefs asked James to go high up on the temple to settle the dispute once and for all. He was asked, "Who is Lord, tell us plainly."

From on high James pronounced loud enough for all to hear, "Jesus is Lord and Messiah." Whereupon the temple authorities tossed him off onto the street. Though he was still alive and prayed for their forgiveness he was finished off with a fuller's rod.

Martyrs for the Lord have a special place with God, even if they at one time led people astray into idolatry. Just as Paul will have a place, even though at one time he persecuted and killed those calling on the name of the Lord.

If James and Paul can be saved then so can any Jew or Gentile by calling on the name of the Lord. What is his name? Jesus, the one through whom we know God, and God knows us.

[edit on 22-12-2009 by pthena]

Originally posted by pthena
The name Christian was a name of reproach, what people of the world jeeringly called the followers of Jesus. Don't call yourself Christian, but when others call you that as an insult, say thank you.

thank you, my friend!

but alas...those who feel the need to insult me always choose to line me up with devils, anti-christs, as the whore of babylon.

but i am just me
babble-on?
perhaps!

but there is no "y" in Babalon!


but either way, you are right.
and i thank you

"blessed are those who are reviled because of my name...for also did they to the prophets who came before you"

reply to post by queenannie38

but alas...those who feel the need to insult me always choose to line me up with devils, anti-christs, as the whore of babylon.

You must run with a different crowd that I do.

reply to post by pthena

Any one can look up James the Just and see that he was closely connected to the temple of stone in Jerusalem, as far as going into the holy of holies, where only the high priest was allowed to go, and then only once a year.

In the back of the translation of Josephus is a section than is only found in an Armenian version, about James serving as a high priest. It says that the other priests were afraid to go into the most holy place for fear of being struck down by God. I thought it was talking about James, the brother of Jesus. This is from when I was studying Josephus over twenty years ago and back then I thought I had it all figured out concerning who was who in the James category. I might have to look at it again to see if I am wrong on that.

12. The disciples said to Jesus, "We know that you are going to leave us. Who will be our leader?"

Jesus said to them, "No matter where you are you are to go to James the Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being."

from the Gospel of (Judas Didymus) Thomas

reply to post by pthena


Oh sorry dude. I'm just talking off the sleeve. . ?I must have misinterpreted what you said. ? I just have a sense of humor sometimes, is that what you meant?

The Prophesies that were Prophecised by Christ Jesus is fulfilled.
Christ Jesus is Testified and Glorified in The Holy Qura’n.

I have even heard people tell stories about how when jesus was a child HE pushed someone off of a roof and that person died. Jesus a murderer? Have you ever heard about that story?
I've heard a lot of things before that I don't agree with necessarily. But you are attempting to discuss Jesus and a temple. Which a true believer of jesus would refer to as a sacred mosque. You say I am talking like a Jew? Are you really interested in ethics?

The meaning is not they merely call themselves Christians, but that they are such sincere Christians that they appreciate Muslim Virtues, as did the Abyssinians to whom Muslim refugees went during persecution in Makka. They would say: “It is true we are Christians, but we understand your point of view and we know you are good men.”

Every sincere and devoted Muslim is a follower of the beloved Prophet Christ Jesus (peace be upon him).
They (Christians) are Muslims at heart, whatever their label (sect) may be. Abdullah Yusuf Ali.

The bible has so many interpretations, and re interpretations over and over again.
It, the mystery, has to be unraveled. I thought you were making a point about that. Every one admits that about the bible.

The dead sea scrolls can be interpreted as they are right now, or as just old documents of a small community that tried to change the stories, or cut n snip. Some people say the james was part of that community that lived in those caves where they found the scrolls. The community were probably outcasted by society, but not for the reasons even stated in the bible, that we are accustom to hearing about. The scrolls were mainly writings about war, and also war with the persians, that never even occured. You're right, that has nothing to do with jesus or the sacred mosque.

The Encyclopedia Brittanica says that "Mohammad is the most successful of all Prophets and religious personalities".

No doubt, no magic, no mystery.

reply to post by pthena


So again, so you understand what I meant, then, why wasn't james hated by anyone? Why would he even be allowed inside? All the apostles were warned, you will be hated: you're right, why wasn't james hated? that's a;; all I meant by that. I like to think of the society at the times of jesus, and compare in to a society of today. Paul was hated, as were the apostles, John the baptist; why not james?

I just find it fun to think about other things and their meanings. For example, Judas the betrayer. Why not call him a confused judas, maybe he was confused by someone else. Off course we know he comitted suicide suppossedly. We all have a knowing as to why.


Of course I say these things off the sleeve, maybe that is the problem, who knows how many times different interpretations have become mainstream throughout the times.

reply to post by pthena

What do you make of the "holy place"?
In
Matthew 24:15
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Originally posted by pthena
reply to post by jonathannas0187

Originally posted by jonathannas0187

New International Version
JN 2:19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."

I wonder what would have happened if the Jerusalem leaders had done what Jesus told them to do, and torn down the temple.

Okay, Jo, I am enjoying this interesting disussion you initiated. But on this quote, I believe your comments is incorrect. Jesus was not making a declarative statement, i.e. "go do it". Alternatively he was making a statement about His power suprassing the temple and his death and resurrection.

[edit on 22-12-2009 by pumpkinorange]

reply to post by jmdewey60
If Jesus was of the line of David and in line for the throne and priest of the order of Melchizedek, but was taken away, that duty may have passed to his brother. In that case James may have been in the temple not as high priest but as Melchizadek.

reply to post by 517.101
Muslims are beyond the debate between Jews and Christians. They don't have to debate whether Jesus is the messiah from David. They have it as given already that Jesus son of Mary is Christ. Plus the temple matters not either, because mosque is house of prayer, not a shrine to God inhabited by an angel.

So temples are no concern. As for James, he was accepted in Jerusalem because he was still serving in the old temple and keeping all the law, therefore completely acceptable.

These should already be understood from Qur'an therefore it would be unseemly to get involved in Jewish/Christian fights.

reply to post by pthena
It never says he served as a high priest or even that he was a priest. But I had assumed that he was, because Mary's cousin was in a family that included a high priest. The way I imagined it was that the Caiaphas dynasty of official high priests got their position by political leverage and that they sub-contracted the more dangerous aspects of it over to people better qualified.




[edit on 22-12-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by pthena


Good, thanks for your persistence and you're patients. Though it not matter, I've been very impressed. Most muslims don't even memorize 20 percent of the quaran. We are all continuing education as students, and we all need to be reminded sometimes of past lessons, even if they are the same lessons from years past. I hope I haven't offended you or your thread. You seem well prepared, as these exercises are good for all, and should be practiced often. It is always humbling to be reminded of things we already know. I've only heard the story of about how suppossedly jesus as a child pushed a friend off a rooftop, and he fell to his death, one time. I need to do some more homework about that one. I am not going to start talking to you about abraham now, so you don't have to ask me if I'm going to start to talk to you about abraham. Stay strong.