ATS is dying, a cancer grows within.

reply to post by johnny2127

That is my point. It is OK for your eyes to see this, but not mine. This is not the first time that I have been banished to a vacuum. I have seen my work posted before...but only on MY MACHINE. Go to a public computer and it is gone. Come home, look for it, there it is.

This means that someone is getting between the sheets, allowing me to believe the message was posted (when it is not), and supposing that I will be content to move on.

Now how does my 'underpowered equipment' explain that phenomenon? How is it that underpowered equipment would allow more info than at public terminals???

Thanks for your help. My feeling, though, is that it may have been modded, for all. Only the super paranoid (those who make copies of the pages as they arrive) will have proof of this.

Again, thanks.

Originally posted by OzWeatherman
Ok, so instead of using proof to debunk, we should just believe everything that we read here?

So what if there are debunkers, its needed here, half the stuff posted here ends up being garbage which is easily disproven with logical thinking and backing evidence. That where the applause is awarded.

If there were no people actually arguing there point, then this site would be literally worthless and boring. Anyway what is wrong with asking for proof? Would you rather just ignore that kind of stuff and belive what is written even if it doesnt have anything that indicates it is factual?

What Im trying to say here is, without two sides of a story, and without proof then we are certainly not denying ignorance. If you choose to ignore the opposite side of the arguments believers, then how the hell is that not being ignorant?

If you dont like a 50/50 argument then I hear godlikeproductions is the best place to be, those people dont use or even need evidence in their posts.

Deny ignornace, and deny idiocracy

Oz you set up a strawman fallacy, the OP never said the things you are saying that person said. You are making assumptions about your own feelings, all the while free speech is actively kept down to a minimum on ATS (just try to post a topic that singles out a Moderator or paints them as violating free speech and they will throw your thread in the trash bin), and moderators do harass at times, while supporting the It's a bird, its a plane, it's a Chinese lantern crowd.

The real people you have to worry about are most likely talking about the opposite of what you would expect, namely themselves as an organization. The conspiracy is much like in the Matrix films. Give the people their resistance, while homogenizing the content and keeping the real trouble makers down. If you have to eventually kill Zion, then they can start over again.

The real people in control have been at ATS from literally the beginning of this website, and the Illuminarians just simply mock us whilst engaging in their own brand of control.

I just hope you didn't come here for the Free Speech, you aren't going to find any if it doesn't fit in the rigid blueprints for what you can and cannot say on ATS. Then they allow certain disgruntled posts, so to debunk the lack of free speech with an assumptive statement like "Well even if you have a point, they let you post didn't they?" Of course. You believe that.

Is John Lear getting his account back? HAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh wait, that's too sensitive, but he isn't welcome here no matter what is found on the moon and otherwise. If you get too close, they pull the plug. Period.

Oz, you spoke of denying ignorance and engaged in using ignorance in fallacies that don't even relate to the OP in the same post. Deny ignorance is a nice way to encourage the sleeper ATSers to keep sleeping in ignorance, all the while keeping up appearances that TPTB have not already spread their filth here as well.

Ok, well here is quite possibly another post to the waste bin.



[edit on 14-12-2009 by GideonHM]

Originally posted by GrOuNd_ZeRo
Lately there has been an increase in members wanting to be skeptical or who wish to straight debunk everything and attack ATS members for even briging up content that is controversial (which this site covers) and worse yet, the ATS moderators and only APPLAUDING them for their skepticism/debunkerism.

First and foremost, it's my firm belief that we "conspiracy theorists" must not be overly-sensitive, and go so far as to fully embrace and seek-out skeptics and debunkers. In fact, back in March of this year, I wrote about it...

The Rise Of The ATS Invertebrate: or, it takes a spine to be a conspiracy theorist.

What we're now seeing, in a wide variety of forums and topics, are relatively new members (less than one-year of ATS membership) with a scattering of old-hands, is a distinct trend toward heightened sensitivity. More and more of the complaints we see are little more than the result of being overly thin-skinned about criticism of a viewpoint.

9/11 Truth supporters being overly sensitive toward conspiracy debunkers

9/11 debunkers being overly sensitive to 9/11 Truth supporters

Chemtrail conspiracy supporters being easily upset over alternate explanations

Chemtrail debunkers being delicate in regards to chemtrail conspiracy supporters

Religion supporters being easily upset over comments critical of religion

Atheists being uptight over comments from the religious

Extraterrestrial/UFO fans easily hurt by pointed questions and comments

ET/UFO deniers/debunkers offended by the staunch position of supporters

Conservatives upset over liberals

Liberals upset over conservatives

Members who call another member a "disinfo agent" being incensed at being call the same

The list of an increase in ultra-sensitivity toward topics can go on and on, and includes those on all sides of a given topic, debate, issue, politics, etc.

Where there are genuine personal attacks within these complaints, we take action. And in some cases, such as the 9/11 or Secret Societies forums, our action may be more severe than other forums because of previous problems. But as of late, more often than not, the complaints we're seeing are less and less about personal attacks, and more and more inspired by personal sensitivities.

I am a skeptic with an open mind, I am not trying to kill ATS. I am new here, and enjoy this site very much, good stories and some very intresting reading to say the least. I don't know about you, but I would just hate it if everybody agreed with everything I did, would be very boring. I have a best friend who believes in aliens, ghost and all sorts of things, and believe me when we go fishing, their is some intresting and funny conversations, I treasure them.

[edit on 14-12-2009 by Mr_skepticc]

OP, the problem isn't discussing alternative theories and possibly fictional stories and possiblities.. the problem is when you state things as facts without any proof of them being a fact. Your first post is full of that crap. Stating something like aliens are working with the government like it is fact will only get you ridiculed for not having proof. Nothing is a fact without proof. If you want to discuss the possibility of that with an open mind crowd of people, stay away from calling things facts and stick to calling them theories. As soon as you call something a fact prepare for debunkers of the subject to ask for valid proof that withstands any and all doubt. The real cancer is liars, hoaxers, profitiers, and pure deception and debunking is the only way to defend against that.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

be reminded that we are separated on many levels. republican-democrats. atheist-religious. european-american-asain-hispanic-black. educated-uneducated-free thinker. north-south. male-female. brother-sister. tomatoe-tomahtoe. i can sit here and type out all that divide us and our differences but i won't.

our opinions are always bias and what i see is different in your eyes. so is my black your white? maybe. that is whats special about this site, you have people here who are willing to challenge the view of others. this isn't a classroom where the professor is absolute, debunkers, keep that in mind.


it all comes down to what is truth to us as individuals, the fun part is how we get there. for some it might be a NASA web page or a box of knowledge you've kept from college. for the few, its all in their head. carry on.

reply to post by GideonHM


"is John Lear getting his account back? HAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh wait, that's too sensitive, but he isn't welcome here no matter what is found on the moon and otherwise. If you get too close, they pull the plug. Period."

Question...who is John Lear? I found some of his posts...but is he a banned member? If so..his work remains, or at least I can say that I read some of it....

I am very interested in banned/former members. That is one key to the door.

THX

reply to post by GrOuNd_ZeRo


I don't agree with the intention or spirit of your post. You are in my opinion asking that everyone just accept what people plop down and to forget about critical thinking.

I think it is much more beneficial to have critical mind and eye towards a lot of topics and to maintain a level head and to keep a keen eye out. It is the useless rot and nonsense that floods the forest and doesn't let you see things for what they really are and not the other way round friend.

So debunkers are 100% necessary and wanted for each and every abnormal or extraordinary thing dropped here.

As Derren Brown says, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"

this isn't some card trading gamers larping fantasy site after all. It is an effort to recognize and point out the things in the world that don't quite fit.

To even suggest for one second that critical thinking should take a back seat to wild claims or that debunking is bad is ludicrous.

In short, you are in effect lobbying for further ignorance. You don't get my vote on that. I'd rather see it tighten up in here with the rejection of rehashes and dragging out ancient dog and pony shows that have been shown to be rot for years.

Or even those people who reject the answer in favour of continuing their sharade such as we are now seeing in the case of the Russian sub launch. It's ridiculous really.

People need to stop and review that post before they click submit when they haven't got their ducks in a row. That would be much more beneficial to teh site.

Larpers and fantasy role players have plenty of other sites for that sort fo thing.

It's kind of a pain to have them here in one of the few places that is supposed to have a little bit of a serious note around teh subject matter.

I have more of a problem with all the GOP neo-con shills in here posting all the I hate obama nonsense.

I think ATS should implement an official "diaper system" for sensitive debunkers & Skeptics as well as believers.

That should leave just the adult and open minded researchers and critical thinkers free to play without having to handhold little brother's hands all the time.

i agree with the op .i come here to listen/read stuff over the top and have been comeing a few years now the site as defo changed last 5 mths.
it could be real attack from rooms full of de bunkers/soliders dident the goverment state they were going to tackle the internet . an a lot of ats topics defo go to the hert of some pretty serious stuff .
anyways carnt the site owners scan for ip and correlate if lots of users are from a certain place . and then use an ip blocker

reply to post by Slayer

From my perspective by far the greatest rudeness comes from the crowd that accuses those not in agreement of being some paid professional plant. I think this is disgraceful and there should be zero tolerance for this sort of thing.
Fact is no one knows who anyone is. That would also go for the most rabid conspiracy theorists!
ATS covers a huge range of topics. Just because someone doesn't agree with a particular line of thought on a particular thread doesn't mean they are some sort of professional debunker for heavens sake. Do the people who come out with this sort of thing realise how silly and paranoid they sound? 'Boo hoo, we've been infiltrated'!
What is the answer? For a start, people should argue their case without slinging accusations around. You need all views and all sides of an argument. If people can't deal with that, tough.
Or you could of course restrict membership and banish anyone taking what seems to be the official line. In which case welcome to the NWO ATS style......
As for the silly' I am an alien' threads, why do people feed the trolls? Sigh...





[edit on 14-12-2009 by unicorn1]

If you think about it there is no 100 percent credible proof of anything (unless you see it with your own eyes in person). For example, the only way to prove the existance of aliens would be for a mother ship to land in central park. Open its doors and come out and start greeting people in broad daylight. Then that info would have to be reported LIVE by every major news media in the US.

So people who claim outlandish things can expect it to get debunked...unless something like the above scenario happens. Until then. Deal with it!

Sweet, another skeptics are teh EVIL thread.

I call all ATS members to shut down their brains and agree that the Flying-Spaghettimonster is real. The voices in my head told me so. That's all the proof you need.

But I have a question for you:

What is a theory worth if it can't be protected from teh debunkers?

Plain and simple, this crap that I see from certain members, like sitting in a thread and saying the equivalent of nuh-uh needs to stop. Its childish and unbecoming. Certain people that debunk do it logically, and thats great, but when the only thing you say is "wait for so and so, he'll debunk this!" then u should not be TRYING to debunk. Now if you actually have your own point, then go with it. Don't act like you know until other members show up to do the work for you.

BTW I believe in a lot of what debunkers call crap, and I could care less what most of them think, unless they give me a reason to think about it.

But just because I believe in this does it make me an idiot?



I don't think so.

Jesus is this not a repetitive cycle that plays itself out every week. ATS is a community like any other and as such is susceptible as the real world communities. The fact that there is so much anonymity helps promote a certain sense of paranoia. The reason i believe we have so many debunkers is because of all the new accounts. Critical thinking and debunking are not the same thing.

I have seen so called debunkers argue idiotic points with just as much veracity and gusto as the very kooks they claim to be educating and liberating from stupidity and ignorance. Its hard to stay objective in this day an age. There is just so much information to file through its hard to know whats bullsh!t and whats real. I guess at the end of the day it boils down to what you want to believe.

AND this is where we come to our current problem. We seem to have an influx of people that think they have the monopoly on reality and whats real. Ego obviously plays its part but i do think most people cant stand to be wrong so they must be right. I dont know about the rest of you but i can admit when im wrong and im wrong most of the time. I find it amusing that there are so many self righteous hero's out to save all the poor ignorant fools who are so deluded that they cant tell fantasy from reality.

Without getting into a fundamental debate on reality i just want to state that NOBODY knows whats real only what they THINK is real. So please before you pass judgment on your lesser mortals remember that its all in your head.

As far as this site is concerned what your seeing is a great king on his deathbed. Sad to say but All good things must come to an end. This site will loose its objectivity and purpose like all things that become main stream and popular. Its just the nature of things. The more people that come here the more opinions and egos that clash and the more that happens the more negativity your going to see. As negativity rises the people that feed on it grow and the ones that cant stand it leave. At the end of the day your left with 3 groups The ones that believe the ones that dont and the ones that cant decide. There are some things i believe some things i dont and somethings i dont know.

But at the end of the day i still know nothing......

reply to post by GrOuNd_ZeRo


I'm replying to the original OP post here.

OP, if your looking for the type of forum you desire, you can find it over at GLP or any number of other places. Here at ATS, we don't turn our brains off and treat conspiracies like a religion (well, some do...and that results in threads like this).

However, if your looking for discussion that tries to bring logic, reason and common sense to the table then this is the place. Some do not have the mentality to use such tools, so they cry and whine when someone presents something that goes against their desired beliefs.

The sad thing it, that when logic, reason and common sense is called upon to separate the signal from the noise, those who generate the noise don't have then mental capacity or life experience to understand, so you end up with plenty that embrace ignorance, such as yourself. I can say that no problem. Why? Because the noise generated that can lead to somewhere is easily fleshed out here thanks to the very people you despise.

Sorry to be so blunt, but reality is what it is. You can believe in elves and aliens all you want, and you can discuss them all you want, but to think that you are surround by those that share the same "beliefs" or have the same level of intelligence is very close minded.

Again, there are hundreds of places on the net where you can find plenty of ignorant people that swallow without chewing. I for one am glad that ATS is generally not one of those places.

I would hope this post to get some stars, as I am 100% sure that even many "believers" share this very same view.

[edit on 14-12-2009 by IgnoreTheFacts]

Click here for more information.

Only joined this year. I myself would not have stayed if their was no one trying to debunk my political theories. The political is why I joined here.

I can acknowledge what I hate the worst is the rabid-OOOOHHH yes way to go Phage-type individuals. The ones that have no idea what is going on but will jump on the bandwagon with nothing more to say than just agree to another's comment.

To you types out there. That is what the star is for. If you have nothing to add, quit clogging up the conversations with a bunch of mealy comments. I can see you have at least one on this thread already.

Arguing and debating is good for any thread.

Another is the off topic rants or the hit and run comments that I do not like.

I hate the NWO agenda and do everything in my power to try and expose their agenda. If you cannot discuss the OP do not attack them using the known CoIntelPro tactics.

Either debate the OP or STFU. You now know my position on this OP. I will give S&F for your thread only to help enlighten the agenda behind these members.

Really, ATS is Dying from within?

Honestly from where I sit the number of topics and posts has grown. If anything ATS is flourishing.

You don't like debunkers or skeptics? use the ignore button!

But lets not forget a monolithic stance on any subject is a recipe for bland. If every thread is followed by "yah I agree with you!" then it goes nowhere. Lets not forget either that some posts are outright hoaxes. There is also this attitude that "debunkers" or skeptic are bad. However are we not all debunkers in one form or another, do you have children? there are many childhood myths that are debunked as they grow up. Kids might not like it but at some point have to learn the truth.

Imagine if you will the following conversation.

Parent "Sally, We have to be honest and tell you the Easter Bunny does not exist"

Sally "But Mom I have proof of his existence! Are you and Dad some kind of disinformation agents! I will not be absorded into some adult NWO! I will encourage the children of the world to deny ignorance!"

Parent "Honey I told you letting her visit ATS was a bad idea"

So lets give the debunkers and skeptics some credit. Without them we would we would be accepting ignorance at face value. I for one appreciate their input.

reply to post by GrOuNd_ZeRo
I am in total agreement with you.

Starred and flagged

Attacking a post by screaming proof proof is a bullying tactic used under the guise of "denying ignorance" to shut someone down.

Possibly ATS became at one time a powerful tool of gathering like minded people trying to break free of the herd and trying to figure our what is really going on. To TPTB too many people coming up with too many intellegent ideas is a dangerous thing.

I've watched people in my office, the ones that are "power players" and while these are small fish in a small pond they operate exactly like the bullies and tyrants all over.

(Office games / corporate warfare - that's a whole nother conspiracy topic)

United we stand, divided we fall - the first step to gain control is to divide your enemy's camp. Usually the most intellegent rebel going against the grain is singled out and "disgraced", "brought down" because TPTB want to nip any rebellion in the bud before it starts. It's called mob control.

Discredit the person/people who are making the most sense and trying to get the truth out.

Below is a little exert and link to really good site that explains bullying tactics better than I can

Basically bullying tactics are used to increase one's "power base" and squash any perceived potential "enemies" before they can gain a foot hold.

www.bullyonline.org...

What is bullying?

Bullying is persistent unwelcome behaviour, mostly using unwarranted or invalid criticism, nit-picking, fault-finding, also exclusion, isolation, being singled out and treated differently, being shouted at, humiliated, excessive monitoring, having verbal and written warnings imposed, and much more.

What is bullying?

People who are bullied find that they are:

constantly criticised and subjected to destructive criticism (often euphemistically called constructive criticism, which is an oxymoron) - explanations and proof of achievement are ridiculed, overruled, dismissed or ignored

forever subject to nit-picking and trivial fault-finding (the triviality is the giveaway) undermined, especially in front of others; false concerns are raised, or doubts are expressed over a person's performance or standard of work - however, the doubts lack substantive and quantifiable evidence, for they are only the bully's unreliable opinion and are for control, not performance enhancement

overruled, ignored, sidelined, marginalised, ostracised
isolated and excluded from what's happening (this makes people more vulnerable and easier to control and subjugate)

I do think at this point and it's only my own personal opinion (like your signature :up That ATS naturally attacted a lot of people who were / are "thinkers" and not willing to be spoon fed the status quo like blind sheep.

This in and of itself is threatening to TPTB. They don't want us to think so possibly they plant these disinformation agents (start researching mind control the rabbit hole goes really deep on this subject) Some, maybe most of these "agents" don't even realize they are.

I also think that there is mass "thought control" being perpetrated right now on the "general public" without their being aware of it.