Christianity, Satans Greatest Deception

Originally posted by iamcamouflage

Originally posted by texastig

Originally posted by iamcamouflage
How can you be sure that the Bible was not inspired by Satan? How can you know that the Pagan religion was not the one true religion and then Satan came to earth as Jesus, inspired man to write the Bible to convince humanity to worship a false prophet?

Try not to use the Bible as a reference because, if the Bible was inspired by Satan then it could not be used as a source to prove that Satan did not inspire it.

Is it unreasonable to believe that Christianity is the devils greatest deception? And how could you know whether it was or not? If Satan is able to deceive, how can you know that you are not being deceived into believing and worshiping a religion that is actually inspired by Satan?

There are over 16 ancient "non-Christian sources" that Christ did miracles, died and rose again.
I want to say that again, "non-Christian sources."
Thanks,
TT

Can you please cite these sources?

Thank you.

www.garyhabermas.com...

reply to post by iamcamouflage

If I put my hands behind my back, and each hand contains a quarter. Then I tell you that one hand has a check for 1 million dollars and one hand has a quarter and I ask you to choose. I already know the outcome because there is a quarter both hands, but you have the illusion that you have been given a choice. when in reality, you had no choice at all because I knew the outcome in advance.

The choice is still mine. I can choose to participate or I can ignore you and walk away.

You either choose to serve God. Or you chose not to serve.

reply to post by dusty1

Free will was shown by Satan and the first two humans according to Genesis. God does not have a plan, He has a purpose. He created humans and angels, and because He made us, His purpose cannot fail. His will is like a river, you can dam it or divert it, but sooner or later the river will flow to its destination. We as individuals must still choose our course of action.

why would you provide your creation with the ability to fail, while at the same time knowing all the outcomes and who will and wont accept him/fail? Why did god put the tree of knowledge in the garden of eden, knowing that satan would trick eve into eating from it? Why allow satan to show the first two humans free will if that was the plan all along?

Originally posted by iamcamouflage

Originally posted by dusty1

Why hasnt god "fixed" it? Why would god let satan deceive us? If god is omnipotent and omniscient, how can we have free will? An infinite god, residing outside of time must surely be able to see the "choices" we will make. And if god can already see the choices we will make, then we do not have free will.

reply to post by iamcamouflage

 

So if you traveled forward in time, that means nobody on earth has free will?

I'm not sure i understand what you are asking? We are not able to travel forward in time. But if we could the outcomes would be exactly what god knew they would be. If we truly have free will, how can god be omniscient? Pure free will leads to knowledge that god does not know.

Free will could very easily be an illusion. If time is infinite, without beginning or end, cause and effect cease to exist.

We can't travel into the future because it has not been made. We cannot go into the past because it's gone.
Thanks,
TT

reply to post by iamcamouflage


I do not believe you for a minute. If there were 10,000 year old manuscripts describing E.T's helping humans with technology MANY MANY MANNNY(esp here at ATS) would consider it to be the missing link. So many people WANT it to be true that they will dive head first without even so much as testing the waters.

reply to post by dusty1

The choice is still mine. I can choose to participate or I can ignore you and walk away.

You either choose to serve God. Or you chose not to serve.

You are just moving the goal post and choosing something that was not offered. In my example, I'm asking you to choose my right or left hand. There is no other choice. As you have pointed out, there are only two choices, serve or not serve god. What you have actually done by walking away, is create agnosticism. Choosing not to choose

You inserted your own variable into my scenario in order to not participate.

Originally posted by iamcamouflage
reply to post by dusty1

 

Free will was shown by Satan and the first two humans according to Genesis. God does not have a plan, He has a purpose. He created humans and angels, and because He made us, His purpose cannot fail. His will is like a river, you can dam it or divert it, but sooner or later the river will flow to its destination. We as individuals must still choose our course of action.

why would you provide your creation with the ability to fail, while at the same time knowing all the outcomes and who will and wont accept him/fail? Why did god put the tree of knowledge in the garden of eden, knowing that satan would trick eve into eating from it? Why allow satan to show the first two humans free will if that was the plan all along?

God knows what the outcome will be but He gives us the choice to choose.
We make the decision.
There's a big big story behind the battle between God and satan that has to do with the pre-adamic age. God is still giving the devil a black eye!!!
Thanks,
TT

Originally posted by Agree2Disagree
reply to post by iamcamouflage

 

I do not believe you for a minute. If there were 10,000 year old manuscripts describing E.T's helping humans with technology MANY MANY MANNNY(esp here at ATS) would consider it to be the missing link. So many people WANT it to be true that they will dive head first without even so much as testing the waters.

Not sure what you want me to say. I would not follow an ancient text unless it had some evidence to support it. sorry. You dont have to believe me but my answer is consistent with not believing any of the other ancient texts as the word of god. My stance in this thread alone should be enough to show you I am not lying.

And I dont appreciate being called a liar. I hope you are not casting judgment upon my character.

Originally posted by iamcamouflage
If god knows in advance whether or not you will accept him, why bother at all? What was the point of creating a universe that you know all the outcomes to?

Why is it claimed that god "tests" your faith, if he already knows whether or not you will accept him. If god knows the outcome you didnt choose it. It is only the illusion of choice.

If I put my hands behind my back, and each hand contains a quarter. Then I tell you that one hand has a check for 1 million dollars and one hand has a quarter and I ask you to choose. I already know the outcome because there is a quarter both hands, but you have the illusion that you have been given a choice. when in reality, you had no choice at all because I knew the outcome in advance.

Would you call that free will?

First off, God does not test ones faith. He allows the satans to test our faith.

Secondly, you did not represent omniscience very well. In fact, you represented DECEIT to the "T". Omniscience would be if you actually had 1 million dollars in one hand and 1 quarter in the other and knew the outcome.

reply to post by texastig

God knows what the outcome will be but He gives us the choice to choose.
We make the decision.
TT

I'm sorry but this makes no logical sense. We are making the choice that god already knows we will make. I'm sorry that is not choice. That is not free will. It is the illusion of free will. Reference my hands behind my back example.

reply to post by iamcamouflage


I feel that you do not WANT to believe in something that represents God and you use the lack of evidence for your reasoning. You do not simply not believe because there is no evidence. You don't believe because you don't want to.

On the other hand, if it were something that you were not afraid of and were hoping to see come to fruition, then you are more likely to place faith in said-"thing" despite the lack of empirical evidence.

I am not calling you a liar. Rather, I choose not to believe in your statements.

You are just moving the goal post and choosing something that was not offered. In my example, I'm asking you to choose my right or left hand. There is no other choice. As you have pointed out, there are only two choices, serve or not serve god. What you have actually done by walking away, is create agnosticism. Choosing not to choose

reply to post by iamcamouflage


No, I simply thought of a possibility you didn't. You were lying to me in your example, you didn't have two choices but only one. My real choices were participation or non participation.

reply to post by Agree2Disagree


Omniscience-is the capacity to know everything infinitely, or at least everything that can be known about a character including thoughts, feelings, life and the universe, etc.


I'm not the one who has claimed that god knows the outcomes but lets you have the illusion of choice. My hands behind my back example is exactly what many are claiming god in fact does. He knows what you will choose, so how is that a choice. With my hands behind my back, I represent omniscience. You not knowing that both hands contain a quarter is irrelevant.(because you are not omniscient in this example).

When you pick my right hand and get a quarter, you say, oh well i had a choice and I chose wrong. You had the illusion of choice, when if fact there was no choice but to receive a quarter, not because i am deceiving you but because I already knew the outcome.

This is an example used to show a point. It is not to be taken as literal deceit that there is not actually a million dollar check. only that I was already aware of what your choice would be, because i have infinite knowledge. (in this example)

reply to post by Agree2Disagree

First off, God does not test ones faith. He allows the satans to test our faith.

Why would god "allow" satan to test our faith if he already know what choice we will make?

Why let satan have any power to test anything, if god already knows how we will choose?

When you pick my right hand and get a quarter, you say, oh well i had a choice and I chose wrong. You had the illusion of choice, when if fact there was no choice but to receive a quarter, not because i am deceiving you but because I already knew the outcome

reply to post by iamcamouflage


Real foreknowledge would mean there was a real choice, but you knew which hand I would choose. Yet, you gave me the dignity of making my own decision.

Originally posted by Agree2Disagree
reply to post by iamcamouflage

 

I feel that you do not WANT to believe in something that represents God and you use the lack of evidence for your reasoning. You do not simply not believe because there is no evidence. You don't believe because you don't want to.

On the other hand, if it were something that you were not afraid of and were hoping to see come to fruition, then you are more likely to place faith in said-"thing" despite the lack of empirical evidence.

I am not calling you a liar. Rather, I choose not to believe in your statements.

I'm sorry can you explain to me how you think you know me so well. I choose not believe because there is a lack of evidence(period).

I like that you can just postulate what I think. I'm not looking for the warm fuzzies of faith. I'm sorry, i'm just not. I guess you can choose to believe me or not but thats the honest truth.

I would love to "believe" in magical fairies and super powers but that is not how i work, nor does science, logic or critical thinking. Currently there is no evidence for either so I do not believe in them.

I'm sorry but not believing me based on nothing but your own assumptions of me, IS calling me a liar. Could you explain to me how it could be interpreted in any other way.

If you accuse me of stealing something and i say i didnt do it and you say that you dont believe me. I think you would be calling me a liar. Not sure how you an reconcile a difference but i would love for you to explain it to me.

Originally posted by iamcamouflage
reply to post by Agree2Disagree

 

My hands behind my back example is exactly what many are claiming god in fact does. He knows what you will choose, so how is that a choice. With my hands behind my back, I represent omniscience. You not knowing that both hands contain a quarter is irrelevant.(because you are not omniscient in this example).

When you pick my right hand and get a quarter, you say, oh well i had a choice and I chose wrong. You had the illusion of choice, when if fact there was no choice but to receive a quarter, not because i am deceiving you but because I already knew the outcome.

This is an example used to show a point. It is not to be taken as literal deceit that there is not actually a million dollar check. only that I was already aware of what your choice would be, because i have infinite knowledge. (in this example)

You influenced the outcome. That is how it does not represent omniscience. He does not influence the outcome. There is no illusion of choice. You choose your outcome. It's pretty cut and dry. If there is no choice go sit on your couch. See what will "spontaneously" happen. Or is choosing not to do anything and waste away into a miserable pile of nothingness not a choice but rather, an illusion?

Why would god "allow" satan to test our faith if he already know what choice we will make?

Why let satan have any power to test anything, if god already knows how we will choose?

What is more joyful? Watching your young child give a cookie to one of his friends out of the goodness of his heart...or....making your child share....
He allows the satans to test our faith so that we may bring Glory to His name and please Him. Also, so that we can be a beacon unto others that they might see our path and choose to follow in righteousness. It's called being an inspiration.

reply to post by iamcamouflage


Someone here at ATS has the signature "I reject your reality and substitute my own".

I think that works here.

It's clear to me that anyone that does not believe, does so out of their heart. It's not because of "evidence" because truly the evidence is there, just not in the sense that you WANT it to be.

reply to post by dusty1

No, I simply thought of a possibility you didn't. You were lying to me in your example, you didn't have two choices but only one. My real choices were participation or non participation.

This is a thought experiment. I'm not sure why you dont understand this. I only gave you two choices, my right hand or my left. Not stay or walk away. This is not a literal example but a thought exercise to prove a point. There are many things you could have done when you take a thought experiment literally. You could have punched me in the face or started dancing a jig but thats not the point.

If god knows the outcome, there are not choices. Only the illusion of choice.

Try this, if as you and others say, god knows all the outcomes but gives you a choice and he says point blank, You can choose to accept me or deny me.

Whatever you decide, there was only one option because god knew what you would choose. You could not have chosen anything else or you would be defying the omniscience of god.

If god already knew that you would choose to accept him, then both of his hands would have the accept quarter in them. If you chose to deny him, then both of his hands would have the deny quarters. If you chose anything other than what god already knew you would choose, than god is not omniscient. He would not have access to all knowledge, if you chose something he didnt know.

reply to post by Agree2Disagree

You influenced the outcome. That is how it does not represent omniscience. He does not influence the outcome. There is no illusion of choice. You choose your outcome. It's pretty cut and dry. If there is no choice go sit on your couch. See what will "spontaneously" happen. Or is choosing not to do anything and waste away into a miserable pile of nothingness not a choice but rather, an illusion?

I influence the outcome in the same way god would, I am privy to the outcome in advance, so its irrelevant as whether or not i have a quarter in each hand or 1 million in each hand. It doesnt matter, i'm not deceiving you because if i know the outcome, you can ONLY choose that outcome, otherwise you have disproved my omniscience by choosing something that I did not know.

How can you choose an outcome that god already knows you will choose?

How can something be omniscient(knowing all and everything) and at the same time not know how you will choose? You cant be sort of omniscient. It defies the definition of omniscient.

God cannot know everything and yet not know your choice. If god knows all your choices, then free will is an illusion and if god does not know your choice, then he is not omniscient. And if god is not all knowing, why worship an inferior being?