Christianity, Satans Greatest Deception

Originally posted by iamcamouflage

The question that I will ask is, who created god? If you say that another being created god, than the god that is worshiped is not and ultimate being because he was created by something else. This argument creates an infinite loop.
Now if you say no one created god, and that god is infinite and had no creator. Then why could you not make the same argument about the universe? If god is so complex as to not need a creator, why even put a creator into the argument and just say the universe is infinite and without a beginning or creator?

Just because we do not fully understand either of these, does not make them identical. You are comparing apples and oranges based off of one concept...they're fruit...

reply to post by dusty1

Why would God want to create a rock He couldn't lift?

Its not a question of why? Its a paradox question of can he. God is supposedly and ultimate being of infinite power, implying that god can create anything. But if god created a rock that he himself could not lift than he does not have infinite power.

This is a thought experiment designed to help illustrate the absurdity of infinite concepts.

If you suggest that there is a infinite deity that needs no creator, why must the universe need a creator? An ultimately complex deity needs no creator so why does a ultimately complex universe need a creator?

reply to post by Agree2Disagree

Just because we do not fully understand either of these, does not make them identical. You are comparing apples and oranges based off of one concept...they're fruit...

How so? Evidence supports that there is a universe, we do not have evidence there is a god. You have placed a creator onto something that may not need a creator. Comparing apples and oranges, would imply that we know for certain there is a god and there is a universe. Only one of these things has evidence to support it.

Again, if you are implying that god can exist without the need for a creator, why does the universe need to have been created by a intelligent being?

Why hasnt god "fixed" it? Why would god let satan deceive us? If god is omnipotent and omniscient, how can we have free will? An infinite god, residing outside of time must surely be able to see the "choices" we will make. And if god can already see the choices we will make, then we do not have free will.

reply to post by iamcamouflage


So if you traveled forward in time, that means nobody on earth has free will?

reply to post by iamcamouflage

Your last sentence has been made by people of every generation before us, that we are now in the end of times and the apocalypse is near.

Surely you read ATS. When have we ever had global communication and travel making a world government possible. It wouldnt take long for a global pandemic to occur. How long have nuclear weapons been around?
Climate change (see world government)?

Again, why would an omnipotent being allow HIS creation to be deceived? Does satan have a power that god cannot control? If that is true it would prove god infallible and not omnipotent. Why worship a god that is fallible and not omnipotent, such a being could not be god

I already gave you my answer. The point of free will is that it can't be "controlled" A God that designed us just might have some good advice to listen to.

reply to post by iamcamouflage


Scientists SOUGHT evidence for the Universe. Seek and you shall find.

Have you sought evidence for The Creator in your heart? Wholeheartedly and not just so that you can say "I never witnessed Him and felt Him therefore He is not existant."

Originally posted by dusty1

Why hasnt god "fixed" it? Why would god let satan deceive us? If god is omnipotent and omniscient, how can we have free will? An infinite god, residing outside of time must surely be able to see the "choices" we will make. And if god can already see the choices we will make, then we do not have free will.

reply to post by iamcamouflage

 

So if you traveled forward in time, that means nobody on earth has free will?

I'm not sure i understand what you are asking? We are not able to travel forward in time. But if we could the outcomes would be exactly what god knew they would be. If we truly have free will, how can god be omniscient? Pure free will leads to knowledge that god does not know.

Free will could very easily be an illusion. If time is infinite, without beginning or end, cause and effect cease to exist.

Originally posted by Agree2Disagree
reply to post by iamcamouflage

 

Scientists SOUGHT evidence for the Universe. Seek and you shall find.

Have you sought evidence for The Creator in your heart? Wholeheartedly and not just so that you can say "I never witnessed Him and felt Him therefore He is not existant."

Have you looked into your heart to find the flying spaghetti monster? Just because you have never witnessed him or felt his presence does not mean he does not exist.

reply to post by dusty1

Surely you read ATS. When have we ever had global communication and travel making a world government possible. It wouldnt take long for a global pandemic to occur. How long have nuclear weapons been around?
Climate change (see world government)?

The same argument was made about the telegraph, telephone and airplane providing global communication and travel. Global pandemics have existed for as long as there have been species on this planet. Are you familiar with the Black Death? The same was said then, that this plague was a sign of the end of times.

Nuclear weapons have been around about 70 years, whats your point?

I'm not sure i understand what you are asking? We are not able to travel forward in time. But if we could the outcomes would be exactly what god knew they would be. If we truly have free will, how can god be omniscient? Pure free will leads to knowledge that god does not know.

reply to post by iamcamouflage


You are saying it is impossible to travel forward in time? Some physicists may disagree.

Do you play chess? You may see the outcome of the game eight steps ahead of your opponent. But can he say he doesn't have free will?

[edit on 26-11-2009 by dusty1]

[edit on 26-11-2009 by dusty1]

reply to post by iamcamouflage


Is there a 2000 year old "fairy tale" describing this flying spaghetti monster?

You do not need to respond so childishly. I am being civil with you friend.

Nuclear weapons have been around about 70 years, whats your point?Text

reply to post by iamcamouflage


When compared to thousands of years of world history the last 100 years are very unique. Good point on the Black Plague, but if something more virulent comes out, in this interconnected world the Black Plague will pale in comparison.

Only in the last 70 years, have humans had the ability, with nuclear weapons, to destroy all life on this planet.

[edit on 26-11-2009 by dusty1]

reply to post by Agree2Disagree


I'm sorry but this is not a childish reply. Using he spaghetti monster argument is not childish. It is a thought experiment used to show that there is as much evidence pointing to it being the creator of the universe as any other. Would you prefer I used Zeus? Or any of the other gods or deities that a have been worshiped and documented over the years.

Why do you not believe in those gods?

[edit on 26-11-2009 by iamcamouflage]

reply to post by dusty1

Do you play chess? You may see the outcome of the game eight steps ahead of your opponent. But can he say he doesn't have free will?

But if you are an omnipotent and omniscient being you would not be seeing only 8 steps ahead, you would be seeing all steps. I never claimed to be omnipotent or omniscient.

Just because it appears that we have free will does not guarantee that we do. The question of free will has never been answered in any certainties. And I'm not saying for sure that we do or dont but if god is omniscient, then it is impossible to have free will.

reply to post by iamcamouflage


Yes, it is a childish reply. My 9 year old brother can come up with a much more valid argument than that.

However, the fact remains that I have yet to see 2000 year old documentation of this flying spaghetti monster. I have yet to read it's text and feel my heart be touched by it. I have yet to feel my spirit be moved by it.

If there was a satanist manuscript that said demons have implimented their will on all the religious doctrines and now control the masses, would you believe it simply because it suits your tastes even if there were no evidence?

Moreso, if there were 10,000 year old manuscripts that said extra-terrestrials nicknamed Jim and Joe came to Earth to teach people about their technology and then changed their minds and race-napped all the humans that knew about them and took them to Pleiades would you believe it even though there is no substantial evidence supporting the claim?

You seem to believe Christianity is the satans tool for deception when there is no substantial evidence for that...



Can we discuss this in a civil manner please?

reply to post by dusty1

You are saying it is impossible to travel forward in time? Some physicists may disagree.

I'm not saying its impossible, only that we currently do not have that ability. And besides, being able to travel into the future is actually evidence that we do not have free will. If free will is true, how could you travel to a future that hasnt been decided? Future time travel actually shows that our choices have already been extrapolated out.

reply to post by iamcamouflage


Not true.

Just because God knows the outcome does not mean you do not choose the outcome. He does not force Himself upon you. He simply knows if you will accept Him or not.

reply to post by Agree2Disagree

If there was a satanist manuscript that said demons have implimented their will on all the religious doctrines and now control the masses, would you believe it simply because it suits your tastes even if there were no evidence?

Moreso, if there were 10,000 year old manuscripts that said extra-terrestrials nicknamed Jim and Joe came to Earth to teach people about their technology and then changed their minds and race-napped all the humans that knew about them and took them to Pleiades would you believe it even though there is no substantial evidence supporting the claim?

No I would not believe it, unless there was evidence to support.

And i'm sorry but this is not a childish argument. Just because you are choosing to reject it without critical thought does not dismiss it as childish. Why dont you believe in greek gods? Or gods from the native american cultures.

"When you understand why you dismiss all other Gods but yours, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

Just because it appears that we have free will does not guarantee that we do. The question of free will has never been answered in any certainties. And I'm not saying for sure that we do or dont but if god is omniscient, then it is impossible to have free will

reply to post by iamcamouflage


Some believe in predestination. I do not. Sometimes people use this as an excuse for their actions.

Free will was shown by Satan and the first two humans according to Genesis. God does not have a plan, He has a purpose. He created humans and angels, and because He made us, His purpose cannot fail. His will is like a river, you can dam it or divert it, but sooner or later the river will flow to its destination. We as individuals must still choose our course of action.

Originally posted by Agree2Disagree
reply to post by iamcamouflage

 

Not true.

Just because God knows the outcome does not mean you do not choose the outcome. He does not force Himself upon you. He simply knows if you will accept Him or not.

If god knows in advance whether or not you will accept him, why bother at all? What was the point of creating a universe that you know all the outcomes to?

Why is it claimed that god "tests" your faith, if he already knows whether or not you will accept him. If god knows the outcome you didnt choose it. It is only the illusion of choice.

If I put my hands behind my back, and each hand contains a quarter. Then I tell you that one hand has a check for 1 million dollars and one hand has a quarter and I ask you to choose. I already know the outcome because there is a quarter both hands, but you have the illusion that you have been given a choice. when in reality, you had no choice at all because I knew the outcome in advance.

Would you call that free will?