Introducing: Millitary Free America!!

Originally posted by cyberdude78
I proudly serve my country as an aircraft maintainer, and I've noticed a very interesting point that people are trying to make against the military. Some people tell us that we're complying with unconstitutional orders, and that we should disobey our orders. Some seem to be telling us that the military should be overthrowing our government. This raises a question. Say the military goes ahead and disobeys orders and starts arresting members of the federal government, then what?

We'll have just committed a coup against a government that was elected by its people. What then? Have a new set of elections so that people can just elect the same kinds of people they originally put in office? Do we install one of our generals as president and go on with our lives under a military dictatorship?

Because I'm really not seeing what else we could do if we all decided to disobey orders. The most underlying principle of the United States military is that at all times it is under civilian control. The day we remove elected civilian control over the military is the day that we become a military dictatorship. Who would you rather have running this country, an elected president and congress, or a general that is accountable to no one?

To all the people that tell me to disobey my orders because you disagree with American foreign policy, I say that I prefer that this country remain under civilian control. I may be an enlisted man, but I know full well that a military dictatorship is the last thing this country needs. So if you want change, do it yourself. The job of the military is to defend this nation, it's the job of the citizen to make sure that there's a nation to defend.

As for the original question of whether or not the military is made up of heroes. I'm not one, but I have the honor of working with and supporting many of them.

A military take over shouldn't last forever... restoring power to civilians can be accomplished inside a year imo, unless that's too hard for the military to figure out how to do. If military personnel are not up to the task, have a few civilians ready to step in immediately to make the hard choices.

Your desire for un-checked civilian control is leading this nation into the same abyss as other failed empires and causing the suffering of millions of innocent souls.

So you in the military can do nothing but continue being good killing robots for the elite as the country circles the drain, or you can make the difficult choices to save the nation from its domestic enemy leaders in the banker gangster owned and operated GOP / DNC.

Unless there are no domestic enemies to oust, or it's just too hard and complected a task for the military, all is well.. nothing to see here (except the USS Titanic sinking as the band plays).. keep on following orders killing innocent people who pose no threat to US soil... because someone else said so.

And yes, I served, deployed and all that.. it was for nothing, all I saw was a giant crime in progress. Killing strangers defending their way of life wasn't protecting Americans freedoms.. if anything it was denying freedom, life, and the ability to peruse happiness for millions of Iraqis who posed no threat to US citizens... all for what? for who? some sociopolitical oligarch gelatinous tape worms I'm supposed to call "leaders"?.. f that, my life is worth more than theirs.

There was no honor in serving for them, advancing their agenda.. only shame in helping ruin millions of lives. If I had done something for the good of my brother & sister citizens.. that would be something to feel proud of.

Originally posted by GovtFlu

A military take over shouldn't last forever... restoring power to civilians can be accomplished inside a year imo, unless that's too hard for the military to figure out how to do. If military personnel are not up to the task, have a few civilians ready to step in immediately to make the hard choices.

A military shouldn't last forever, and I don't doubt that our upper leadership could do it if they wanted to. The problem is that I don't trust anyone with power that's backed solely by brute force. The problem with the military running the whole country is that the military works on a chain of command where there has to be someone in charge of everyone until it culminates with one person. That ultimatley means that we would have one man with absolute power, and I don't trust any one on this Earth with that kind of power.

And who would these civilians be that would make these choices? Seeing as it would be the military choosing them it's not like it would be the people's choice. And if it's not the people's choice then there's really no point in them being civilians, they may as well be more military officials.

Your desire for un-checked civilian control is leading this nation into the same abyss as other failed empires and causing the suffering of millions of innocent souls.

Civilian control isn't unchecked so long as the citizens do their job and keep their own government in line. A nation only deserves the government that it allows,

So you in the military can do nothing but continue being good killing robots for the elite as the country circles the drain, or you can make the difficult choices to save the nation from its domestic enemy leaders in the banker gangster owned and operated GOP / DNC.

The government we have right now may not be pretty, but it's the one that the people elected, and it's the one that the people continue to reelect. Democracy means having to take responsibility and deal with bad choices. And it also means that although I may disagree with the choices that others make, I have to respect those choices. The number of people in this country that voted for Barack Obama greatly out number the amount of people that voted for someone else. Why should we have more say in who leads us than the vast majority of American voters? What makes my opinion of who should lead us more correct than the civilians that voted for Obama less than a mile from where I sit?

Unless there are no domestic enemies to oust, or it's just too hard and complected a task for the military, all is well.. nothing to see here (except the USS Titanic sinking as the band plays).. keep on following orders killing innocent people who pose no threat to US soil... because someone else said so.

I do my job of supporting the men and women fighting these wars because the American public is telling me to. They reelected the man that started the wars, and then they elected a man that is continuing them. Now given the fact that Bush was not popularly elected the first time the voter's opinion really meant little during his first term. But the fact that Bush was reelected confirmed that the people for one reason or another supported what he had started.

And yes, I served, deployed and all that.. it was for nothing, all I saw was a giant crime in progress. Killing strangers defending their way of life wasn't protecting Americans freedoms.. if anything it was denying freedom, life, and the ability to peruse happiness for millions of Iraqis who posed no threat to US citizens... all for what? for who? some sociopolitical oligarch gelatinous tape worms I'm supposed to call "leaders"?.. f that, my life is worth more than theirs.

I'm sorry to hear that the military didn't work out for you, and I thank you for at least trying to do some good for our country.

There was no honor in serving for them, advancing their agenda.. only shame in helping ruin millions of lives. If I had done something for the good of my brother & sister citizens.. that would be something to feel proud of.

The fact that both Afghanistan and Iraq can now vote for their leaders and no longer have to worry about their own governments massacring them is enough to motivate me to keep doing what I do. I'm sorry that you weren't able to feel the same.

reply to post by network dude

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Another thing;

This current situation in the middle East isnt even a real "war"

Its policing, mixed with humanitarian work (handing out water and candy bars)

Im sorry but in a real "war" you dont go door to door and ask "are there any bad guys in there?" Like the people who live there will really even rat out their neighbors anyways, especially when most of them have lived there for hundreds of years, their families are closely intertwined. I believe people view us as "soft" over there because of the way we do things.

If we were really at war, we would roll into a village and say "You guys have 30 seconds to give us all your Taliban, Al Queda etc." if they didnt, you call in an air strike and wipe that village off the face of the earth. Then guess what? the next village you roll into, people will be soooo happy to give up the insurgents they're hiding.
"

Great point, Real war is gone. It left when we were trying to bomb the Vietnameese back into the stone age, not realizing they were already in the stone age. We cannot keep fighting our attackers the same way we did 100 years ago.

[edit on 26-11-2009 by SLAYER69]

[edit on 26-11-2009 by SLAYER69]

Originally posted by 12212012
reply to post by network dude

 

NOBODY is going to take over America as long as we have our guns! we have enough guns to outfit the entire Chinese Military. NOBODY is going to give up their guns!

Are you suggesting that without a military, armed civilians would be able to repel an invasion?

If a hostile country wants to invade us, they will not give us an opportunity to shoot back. We'd be blown to smithereens by nuclear weapons or artillery shells before they even come close. Without our army, airforce, navy and our nuclear deterrent, we would be sitting ducks even if we were armed to the teeth.

reply to post by Uniceft17

Those who serve swore to protect and defend the constitution of the United States, being in Iraq goes against everything the constitution stood for and what the founding fathers stood for. They have a moral duty to stand up and deny the orders they are given, WE don't have the power to end these wars obviously, the MILITARY does, all they have to do is do what is right and STAND UP to there commanders.

Now this is just the sort of ignorant comment that irritates me to no end. No to mention that it shows a distinct lack of knowledge of U.S. History.

You say that the war in Iraq is against the Constitution. Which part? You say its against everything that the Constitution stands for..like what? I am going to guess you do not realize that without the French, the Germans, and the Dutch, we most likely would not have beaten the British as relatively quickly as we did. Possibly you did not learn about the Monroe Doctrine.

We went into Iraq to ensure we would not have to worry about Saddam Hussien either training more terrorists to do us harm or to start mass producing WMDs and giving them to the same terrorists. Then again, maybe you are ignorant of the last 35 years of history.

Either way, I will continue to defend your right to be ignorant.

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999
reply to post by Uniceft17

 

Those who serve swore to protect and defend the constitution of the United States, being in Iraq goes against everything the constitution stood for and what the founding fathers stood for. They have a moral duty to stand up and deny the orders they are given, WE don't have the power to end these wars obviously, the MILITARY does, all they have to do is do what is right and STAND UP to there commanders.

Now this is just the sort of ignorant comment that irritates me to no end. No to mention that it shows a distinct lack of knowledge of U.S. History.

You say that the war in Iraq is against the Constitution. Which part? You say its against everything that the Constitution stands for..like what? I am going to guess you do not realize that without the French, the Germans, and the Dutch, we most likely would not have beaten the British as relatively quickly as we did. Possibly you did not learn about the Monroe Doctrine.

We went into Iraq to ensure we would not have to worry about Saddam Hussien either training more terrorists to do us harm or to start mass producing WMDs and giving them to the same terrorists. Then again, maybe you are ignorant of the last 35 years of history.

Either way, I will continue to defend your right to be ignorant.

Occupying Iraq goes against Article VI, Clause 2 of the US Constitution... which states that international treaties such as the U.N. Charter, ratified by the US in 1945, are the “supreme law of the land.”

UN sect general Kofi Annan stated the Iraq invasion was illegal per UN charter "I have indicated it was not in conformity with the UN charter. From our point of view and from the charter point of view it was illegal."

Since UN charter is the “supreme law of the land”, breaking UN charter is breaking US law.

Any questions?

Your own hilarious assertions that occupying Iraq had something to do with some people being "worried" about what one person might possibly do... is admitting preemptive war, youre aware that too is illegal? a crime against humanity considered "evil"..

At least you acknowledge it is the US govt who are the evil-do'ers

The preemptive war doctrine under which our troops now occupy Iraq, was explicitly rejected by the Nuremberg War Crimes Tribunal.

Tribunal concluded: "To initiate a war of aggression is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole."

Kellog-Briand Pact of 1928.

Summary of Article 51. The Kellog-Briand treaty, ratified by the United States in 1929, requires that all disputes be resolved peacefully. It prohibits war as an instrument of foreign policy.

Oops, another violation of the law of the land... darn.

Any questions?

Dwight Eisenhower once said: "All of us have heard this term 'preventive war' since the earliest days of Hitler...I wouldn't even listen to anyone seriously that came in and talked about such a thing.".. yet somehow when bush did it, it's all good?

en.wikiquote.org...
www.thefourreasons.org...
www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0916-01.htm

United Nations Charter summary of Article 51 allows for a nation to use military force to defend itself only in cases of an ongoing or impending attack.

I don't recall Iraqi troops storming the beaches of Malibu..

Dang it, another broken law of the land.. bummer. But we're the United States, we don't need no stink'n laws.. our motto "treaties are signed to be broken"

Originally posted by cyberdude78
((snip))

Who the civilians will be are simply details to be worked out, as long as the oligarchs that have hijacked the phony 2-party divide and conquer system are removed.

Temporary representatives can be replaced with elections. I reject the idea having only two choices equals "free" elections or produces a govt of the people... that fact the bush and obama were elected is not reflective of a free country.. its an example that the elite and their MSM cheerleaders can engineer anyone into office that will continue on with the violence agenda.

Not to mention the DC mafia and their banker gangster cronies have proven again and again they will false flag or terrorize the nation into submission long before they let the silly little peaceful people usurp their power.

The afghan elections were an international joke and that the Iraqis can now vote for a US puppet are not accomplishments to be proud of when the ILLEGAL occupation has devastated MILLIONS of innocent lives. Epic fails.

Serving worked out great for me, I used as a stepping stone to a city job with the gendarme where I could actually do some good for US citizens.. and made a lot more money. Glad I did it, but there's no way I'd do it again... I saw the reality of my situation: I was risking my life, like a pawn.. for some oligarch elite douche nozzles who conspired to lie the nation into an illegal war.. going 1/2 way across the world to kill strangers who posed no threat to US soil helps nobody but TPTB.

I will accept the military is fighting for, or defending, MY freedoms when I am at risk of having my beer poured out, porn confiscated and my GF will have to wear a sheet if the advancing jihad army occupies los angeles... and the Marines step in and repel the freedom haters from US soil... until then our military are being used to advance the agenda of oligarch thugs, and are thugs by proxy... the last thing they're doing is defending the freedom of the US.

And nobody honestly believes the Iraqis and Afghans are free to vote for anyone but a US puppet..lol.. as if our govt would actually allow them to freely vote in an American hating govt that will convert to the euro, kick out US businesses and partner with Iran..haaaahaaaa sure they are "free"... free for us to poop on!

Nobody in America is asking you to kill strangers whose only crime is not wanting to be occupied by a violent nation run by transparent liars... Iraqis are very aware their misery is the result of bush, thus America, telling bold face lies and ignoring international law.. who wouldn't fight to kick out that type of invading govt?... would you like being occupied by people who have a history of installing puppet leaders, have no problem lying to kill people or ignoring international law?.. heck, they had saddam for that.

We need to start a series of premptive attacks on the warmongers. We must make it illegal for corporations to wage war, even with mercinaries. We need to make a law against decieving the puplic for monitary gain.