I think the major problem is that mild intermittent low mood is being viewed as pathological. Serious chronic depression is what might need some sort of treatment, that is pathological and disruptive.

I wouldn't solely blame it on pharma, though. People also have issues in accepting the whole range of emotions that makes them human. There's also an industry of self-help which help foster this pathologising (if that's a word) of a range of normal human feelings and thoughts.

It is right it should be so:
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know
Through the world we safely go.
Joy and woe are woven fine,
A clothing for the soul divine.
Under every grief and pine
Runs a joy with silken twine.
Auguries of innocence William Blake

Nice thread, anyway, sofi.


[edit on 11-11-2009 by melatonin]

For me today peopel are getting to much from tv, like jordan maxwell says. People do not know how to be human,a nd what feelings and thoughts and actions they do, other than what they see on tv.

I think like everyone, we all do not understand, why we feel low, and why we feel high. Its part of being human, and the human race has been around for such a long time without all this pharma rubbish.

Like how the swine flu is rubbish, but media hype, pushed people into believing that they where going to die. Humans have been through far worse, and we are still here.

On depression, maybe the op is right, i am sure it plays some important role in humans, but the problem also is that plenty who think they are depressed are not really, and just need to do some exercise to get there hormones working. I am sure depression is a very complicated thing, and cannot be just written off as easy as op says, but i am sure it must play an important role.

S&F and passing the link along!
this is by far the best thread i've read all week!

Awesome thread sofi...

I would think that it bears to note that depression isn't always a static condition. There inherently is a fluctuating hormaonal/neurotransmitter ration in the body and while we discuss depression as a condition it is likely a bit more complicated than that (individually speaking).

As well...I wonder how many induced expectations from the ingestion of the propagation of the American Dream and Hollywood is responsible for people in this condition.

The implications of a simple question can have ramifications for the entirety of our society...

Originally posted by Lasheic
I wanted to check her credibility as well. The title of her book "Train Your Mind, Change Your Brain: How a New Science Reveals Our Extraordinary Potential to Transform Ourselves" and associations with Buddhism and the Dali Lama threw up some red flags for me. Though I guess it's more about neuroplasticity than fru-fru brain training advice according to the Amazon reviews.

lol, there is a lot of trash around in the self-help arena.

One scientifically validated Buddhism-inspired therapy is mindfullness. I'm a big fan and use it myself.

I also wonder if the stigma of being "quacks" and "shrinks" historically has influenced the bias of some psychologists over the last few decades to over-diagnose and unnecessarily prescribe medication. Think of it as a validation marker of their profession and status. Shrinks make you sit on the couch and talk about your father while they psychoanalyze you... but Doctors, they write prescriptions for medication to cure disease.

It's a cost, convenience, and time issue much of the time, IMO. If a person turns up at a quacks complaining of low mood etc, just easy to push them in the direction of a bottle of pills. The issue is that the people think small period of low mood needs treatment in the first place. And this is fostered by culture (as nixie points out), pharma, self-help gurus and many more.

Cognitive-behavioural Therapy can be time-consuming and expensive. It can work, though. But pills are just a convenient option, not so much a psychologist problem as they are predominately focused on behavioural therapy (not MDs). And shrinks are MDs, so can prescribe.

In the psychology field, many have noted that we have been overly focused on 'abnormality' and psychopathology, hence the new area of Positive Psychology.

There was a study on NPR a few weeks ago suggesting a similar hidden bias in surgeons to recommend unnecessary surgery more often if there is a lot of competition. Not as a way to make money, but because more doctors lessens the work load - and preforming surgeries keeps them busy and engaged in their profession.

I'm quite sure that making healthcare market- and profit-led is problematic. Overtreatment is a problem for the US system.

[edit on 11-11-2009 by melatonin]

There are a lot of pathological conditions that could be considered forms of evolution.

This new take on Depression I recall reading a theory positing such about a year ago.

However, when you mix Capitalism with Health Care, society is going to consider anything that could be treatable as a pathological condition, regardless of whether it is a beneficiary condition or a detrimental one.

I have Sleep Apnea, Narcolepsy, and Insomnia. Although Modern Medicine considers all of these to be pathological conditions, I have discovered them to be a boon and an evolutionary step (as my father and my daughter also have all three of them). I never need more than 3-3.5 hours of sleep a night (as because of the Apnea it provides no physical benefit), and oftentimes can go a week at a time without the need for sleep (my daughter can go up to 9 months at a time without sleep). In 3.5 hours I get more REM Cycles than the average person does with 8-10 hours because I have no NREM Cycles and go from REM Cycle to REM Cycle immediately upon falling asleep. With needing less sleep I am able to live at least 50% more than the average person, having a more fulfilling waking life than most.

The point of this is that if a condition does not deter from your quality of living...if it does not adversely affect your ability to be functional, nor adversely affect either yourself or those in your life like your family and co-workers, then it should not be considered detrimentally pathological.

Thankfully some Health Care Providers realize this. When I was diagnosed with a rare Anxiety Disorder for which the only treatment was to turn myself into a non-functioning vegetable, my Psychiatrist determined that the coping mechanisms I had developed on my own were far more effective than any form of treatment. He considered it unethical to attempt to treat something that was clearly detrimental but which had been successfully adapted to, when most would have just prescribed the Medication even though the cure would have clearly been worse than the affliction.

Besides, everyone gets depressed. Depression is only pathological when there is no discernible trigger or cause for the Depression. If you are Depressed because Life Sucks or because your Cat/Grandma/Sister/Pope died, then you are perfectly normal and don't need treatment, even when the Pharmaceutical companies are more than eager to dispense you something to make you feel all better. However, even if you are chronically Depressed for no reason, there are benefits to such. All it takes is a different perspective and accepting and embracing that Depression rather than seeking medication. Name me one great Artist that didn't find inspiration in Depression? Name me one great Scientist that wasn't isolated and Depressed?

Humans achieve greatness when they not only accept their shortcomings, but when they utilize those shortcomings as stepping stones. When you see the things that make you different as faults and seek to remedy them with medication and treatment you fail to recognize your strengths and leverage them for your greater Will.

Originally posted by melatonin
...Serious chronic depression is what might need some sort of treatment, that is pathological and disruptive.

Disruptive, yes. To production and economic output, mainly. But to individual growth, development, evolution? ...I wonder.

Seems to me that the biggest problem with disruptive / dysfunction is its impact on today's economic system.

But many older cultures accommodate the notion that people need "time out." My favorite is the Australian Aborigine tradition of "walkabout" - most dictionaries say it's a return to "traditional ways", but my understanding is that sometimes you just have to go walkabout to get your head straight. And when you do, your economic output pretty much sucks. ...Is that really such a bad thing?

I wouldn't solely blame it on pharma, though.

I don't. I figure Big Pharma fronts for the corporate cabal.


THANKS everyone for your contributions - just came online for a quick peek. Can't respond to everyone right now but I'll be back.

Originally posted by soficrow
Disruptive, yes. To production and economic output, mainly. But to individual growth, development, evolution? ...I wonder.

Seems to me that the biggest problem with disruptive / dysfunction is its impact on today's economic system.

But many older cultures accommodate the notion that people need "time out." My favorite is the Australian Aborigine tradition of "walkabout" - most dictionaries say it's a return to "traditional ways", but my understanding is that sometimes you just have to go walkabout to get your head straight. And when you do, your economic output pretty much sucks. ...Is that really such a bad thing?

Well, if there's a high risk of challenging for the Darwin award not really conducive to personal growth. It's not just an economic problem. And, like yourself, I would view that as a lesser issue.

But from a interpersonal and social perspective prolonged and deep depression ain't helpful. It affects families and friends, hope and dreams. Losing interest in those around us, ourselves, reduced self-esteem and feelings of worthlessness, helplessness, lowered health status (due to stress hormones etc), and in severe cases even delusion and hallucination isn't an ideal way to live for any prolonged period. And we can also add in the comorbid anxiety that affects a large proportion of the chronically depressed.

It really depends on the individual. Many chronically depressed come to accept and find a way to live with their lot when treatments fail. Others just can't, leading to potential harm of self and others.

I really would make the distinction between chronic major depression and the intermittent downs most of us experience and other temporary mood states.

But I agree with the timeout issue. I would also raise other forms of 'timeout' that are viewed as traditional (entheogens).

What I would say, though, is to be careful of the naturalistic fallacy. Chronic depression might be some form of evolutionary derived trait, whether side-effect or direct. But so is sickle-cell, potentially schizophrenia, and probably range of other devastating conditions. Doesn't mean they're 'good'.

Schizophrenia is a good example here. There's some research that shows a degree of schizotypy leads to higher levels of creativity. Which, of course, is a helpful trait. Schizotypy is a subclinical personality type that is very strongly associated with schizophrenia. I would speculate that a small dose of schizotypal traits leads to high creativity, excessive traits to schizophrenia. However, schizophrenia ain't so helpful. And I would think that those with schizophrenia are actually the price we pay for the existence of creative traits. All basic tentative research at this point. But it makes sense to me (cf. sickle-cell), especially knowing the fact that schizophrenia is a heterogenous condition. Even though the small doses of genes underpinning schizophrenia might have some adaptive value in most cases, treating schizophrenia is not a bad thing.

[edit on 12-11-2009 by melatonin]

Serious long-term chronic depression can incapacitate a person or leave them dead. There should be a name for it other than depression, because it is nothing like "being depressed". It's an inability to function, where the mind constantly replays agonisingly painful memories or just shuts down to avoid the unbearable pain. No-one who understands the continual numbness or agony of this life-threatening condition would suggest people suffering it avoid antidepressants.

However I'm all for an approach where a less severe depression is regarded as having some positives. It's like the times when I couldn't stop crying and I'd tell myself how good that was; it was washing out the tear ducts and irrigating the eyes, and salt water is good for the skin. So I'd make up my mind to keep crying as long as I could. This would generally alleviate the misery and stop me crying.

If you are mildly depressed, reading the research about how depression shrinks the brain and decreases the memory and leads to suicide could make you seriously depressed. Much better to consider the potential positives and work with them. We all need to practice using our "emotional muscles" so we can carry our mental burdens and learn from them instead of having to escape into fake happiness. - Just not all the time, time out through entertainment, companionship, a good walk, music, and even occasionally getting sloshed, can all be good therapy too.

I never really thought of depression as such but now that it's mentioned it seems so apparent. Depression, IMO, could definately be described as an evolutionary benefactor. Those that go through it do seem to be stronger and less prone to succumbing to "overwhelming" adversity. Although, there are numerous accounts of depression leading to suicide. I think that's basic natural selection(I hate to say that). It makes sense.

The best antidepressant though, is not medicinal. It's the feeling of love. Most people that suffer from depression do not love themselves nor feel loved by anybody else. The stigma that plagues us is one of popular culture: "love just happens". Which, we should all realise, isn't quite true. One must work to attain love and work to attain satisfaction.

One consequence of said-stigma is that when we find real love, we become disappointed because there are many things that do not fit the cultural ideal of love. Some of us get demanding or controlling, wanting someone else to fit our picture of "love" perfectly, without realising our ideal is misplaced.

Is it just me or does that seem somewhat like controlled evolutionary processes?

I think Depression in simply stress. Depression seems to me to be nothing more than the overwhelming desire for something to change.

Stress causes these chemical imbalances. The reason they don't want you to know this is because if someone is "stressed", people point fingers. If they are "depressed" it's conveniently nobody's fault.

It gives TPTB the ability to push stressed slaves harder, without taking any responsibility for their actions, because the person has a "medical condition". And it also can cause a person to believe that they have no control over their own mind.

It disgusts me.

[edit on 12/11/09 by NuclearPaul]

Really useful and interesting thread, Soficrow S&F

Insight may arise from depression, in that you are forced to trawl the depths of your own resouces, to consider the worth of continuing to live, to find solace in the small beauties of life. To grit your teeth, and mutter into the pillow "I am a good person" until you believe it again.

If that experience enhances the world at large, I cannot see how. I do not regret depressive episodes; without them I wouldn't be me. Would I risk passing on the condition to hypothetical children? Absolutely not.

Just my 2 cents worth.