Testimoney of a US Mail Man

Hi there

I have a friend in America who spoke to his mailman a few days ago. They were discussing the photographs of the maltreatment and torture of the Iraqi prisoners at 'Abu Prison, The Mail man said, "Oh they deserve it because of September 11th". OMG This man believes Iraqis are terrorists and responisble for the WTC attacks. This is understandable since the US media and its government are insisting on 'links to Bin Laden' which are there is no evidence for. However, this simple ignorance, stupiditiy and lack of humanity is terrifiying to me since if the people of the world's only superpower believe this: the US government can get away with anything it likes.

Is this the general mindset of the American people or is this an isolated case? And also your thoughts on the implications of this discovery, if you will.


[Edited on 19-5-2004 by mrsteve]

Err, Bin Laden claimed the wtc attacks....that pretty much sums it up and appart from that the 3/11 bombings in Spain and the Arabic men that the Spaniard police surrounded and blew themselves up as they were chanting in Arabic, pretty much tells you that Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups are real, and are using terrorist acts against civilians...

Saddam regime had been helping, through the Russians, Chinese and maybe North Korea, terrorist organizations, including Al Qaeda. Search on this website, many members, me included, have posted reliable information that confirms all of the above.

Not all iraqis are terrorists, but there are still many loyalists to Saddam and other extremist Muslims that are attacking our troops over there...

How does Binladen confessing to the 9/11 attack make Iraqis responsible? Bin laden is not an Iraqi. Iraqis are a rarity in al'keda - just look at the Terrorist Most Wanted.

Of course there are going to be some instances of Iraqi terrorists but the generalisation that all Iraqi prisoners (note that many in the prison are looters or simply detained for being at the wrong checkpoint) are terrorists.

There is much debate over the Saddam-Terrorist Group link and it is discussed elsewhere so there is no need to go into it. However, even IF (and i doubt it) there are Iraqi connections this does not make all Iraqis terrorists.

Furthermore, the treatment of prisoners in this way for any reason is unacceptable because it goes against human rights. The Iraqis who tortured American captives believed it was right because of what they thought 'Americans' in general' had done to them. They are making massive generalisations. We should not sink to their level and believe the generalisation that all Iraqis are terrorists. Nor should we sink to the level of torture because it breaks the principles of freedom and humanitarism that our modern democractic civilisation prides its self upon.

PLEASE ANSWER MY QUESTION ABOUT WHETHER THE MISCONCEPTION THAT IRAQIS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR 9/11 IS THE GENERAL VIEW POINT OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE

[Edited on 19-5-2004 by mrsteve]

There is no real proof that even Bin Laden had connections with 9/11, let alone Saddam. I can't beleive that people are actually pleased by the infliction of pain on the average Iraqi civilian because they feel that they are in some way to blame?

Originally posted by Muaddib


Not all iraqis are terrorists, but there are still many loyalists to Saddam and other extremist Muslims that are attacking our troops over there...

To me in this last phrase the key words is Over There. What would you do, if someone invaded your native land, on the pretense (sp) that they are looking for WMD. Then it shifts to WE need to get Saddam out.

Regarding 911, to me it's simple. There would be no need for a domestic 911 commission, if those in our own gov't didn't have concerns as to who the real perpatrators were.

Bin laden claimed the attacks... Via video or audio. Not to mention ABL's ties to our gov't and it's clandenstine departments.

As an American, I can say we don't have all the answers.

mrsteve, it's my opinion that unfortunately this is the popular mindset of most ignorant Americans who fail to read and inform themselves on aspects of this situation and events in the world.

you see their ignorance when they call for nuking all of Iraq, pronouncing and spelling Iraq as I-RAK, and treating Iraqis as people below themselves.

Some claim the Al-Qaeda connection is definitely there, I have yet to see definitive proof of that. The U.S. entire case of connecting Al-Qaeda to Iraq is the man named Al-Zarqawi whom has been reported by many sources as being dead and anti-Al-Qaeda. yes the man is or was a terrorist, but his beef seemed to have been more with the Jordanians, Israeli, Palestinian conflict. Have you noticed that every attack recently has been blamed on Al-Zarqawi, from events in Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Pakistan, Al-Zarqawi seems to have a hand in everything Al-Qaeda, or he could simply be a scapegoat in order to prove a questionable case from the very beginning.

No this is NOT how all americans think.
The RED CROSS says that 90% of the people in abu ghraib prison were/are innocent.

There are some Americans, and the number grows daily, that believe this enitre 'war on terrorism' is a ploy by the megalomaniacs to further their scheme of world domination. The NWO.

To all but the most closed minded, brainwashed, or ignorant individuals the truth becomes more and more evident each day.

The powers that be feed on the hate and ignorance fostered by the mass media.

Anyone who says 'they deserve it', whether in Iraq, Afghanistan or even Palestine, is playing right into the hands of the evil that grips our world.

I refuse to hate anyone or fear anything.

When I was there I saw rows and rows of tanks that never left the motor pool, aircraft thrown on top of scrap metal piles. After years of sanctions, the Iraqi military was a joke. It had no navy, no air force, just a small cadre of republican guards. Right or wrong, we attacked, for all practical purposes, an unarmed nation. Saddam was only a threat to the Iraqi people. Don't believe the hype that he was ready to take over the world.

Check the site earthtone, a few members, me included, have posted the evidence connecting them.

Even the Russians say that Saddam had been helping terrorists and Al Qaeda among them.


"The fact of the matter is that as early as 1994, but certainly proof positive as of 1998, the connection between Al Qaeda (search) and Saddam Hussein was very clear. In February and March of 1998, bin Laden's No. 2 guy visited Baghdad at the request of the intelligence services of Iraq.

And he was living in Khartoum at the time at the very moment that the Sudanese intelligence chief was begging the FBI in hand written notes that were carried back and forth to come to the Sudan and look at what the data was that they had, who they were dealing with, how bin Laden's people were moving around, which ones were moving where and what they were doing.

There is no and, if's, or but's about the fact that there was a connection between al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein that early.

Now, the real question is what did they do in that two and a half weeks that they sat there and planned and plotted with each other?

HUME: Well, certainly that makes pretty good circumstantial evidence on the attacks on those embassies. And it does suggest from what you have said that there have been contacts at a high level, important level, between al Qaeda and the Iraqi regime of Saddam Hussein. But what about something that would suggest a connection to 9-11, is there evidence there of any consequence?

IJAZ: Absolutely, and now let's take it a step further after the 1998 bombings. We then know there was a training camp called Salman Pak, which we've been able to identify the aircraft that they trained, the hijackers on. We've been able to identify other contacts between Iraqi intelligence services and directly with the 9-11 hijackers.

People would love to shove that evidence under the carpet, but the fact of the matter is that the meetings did take place, planning was going on. The Iraqi diplomatic pouch was the tool of choice to pass al Qaeda's messages around the world in different parts of the world.

There was�we know for a fact that the Philippines' embassy of Iraq in manila was used for purposes of planning what was then a thwarted effort to try and hijack airplanes across the Pacific. We know that the Pakistani�I mean, the Iraqi Embassy in Islamabad was used to facilitate contact between the Taliban, bin Laden's people, and Iraqi senior scientists to collaborate on chemical and biological weapons. I know that for a fact myself that that was going on. "

Excerpts taken from.
www.foxnews.com...

There is also this.

"Monday, March 29, 2004 8:08 a.m. EST
Saddam Warned of WTC Attack Before 9/11, Praised bin Laden Afterward

Why did the Bush administration immediately suspect that Iraq was behind the 9/11 attacks when there was no evidence of any connection, as Richard Clarke and other Bush critics maintain?

Maybe it was because there was indeed evidence - very dramatic evidence, in fact - in the form of warnings in the state-run Iraqi press that such an attack was coming, along with praise for Osama bin Laden and his kamikaze hijackers in the days after the World Trade Center was destroyed.

On July 21, 2001, less than two months before 9/11, the state-controlled Iraqi newspaper Al-Nasiriya carried a column headlined "America, An Obsession Called Osama Bin Ladin." In the piece, Baath Party writer Naeem Abd Muhalhal predicted that bin Laden would attack the U.S. "with the seriousness of the Bedouin of the desert about the way he will try to bomb the Pentagon after he destroys the White House."

The same state-approved column also insisted that bin Laden "will strike America on the arm that is already hurting," and that the U.S. "will curse the memory of Frank Sinatra every time he hears his songs" - an apparent reference to the Sinatra classic "New York, New York." (Two 9/11 families were awarded over $100 million last May by U.S. District Court Judge Harold Baer based on this and other evidence that Iraq was involved in 9/11.)

Saddam's threats of a 9/11-style attack before 9/11 weren't limited to that single report. In 1992, his son Uday used an editorial in Babil, the newspaper he ran, to warn of Iraqi kamikaze attacks inside America, saying, "Does the United States realize the meaning of every Iraqi becoming a missile that can cross countries and cities?" "

Excerpts taken from.
www.newsmax.com...

Elsewhere in the site I have posted other information and links to not only this link between Al Qaeda/terrorism and Saddam, but Russia, and China at least.

If you are going to make an statement like the one you made, you better present links and reliable information.

BTW Worldwatcher, in Europe is spelled Irak, not Iraq, and the connection is there.

I'm afraid we do have all the answers. if we didnt go around sticking our red white & blue noses in all the worlds business the WTC attack would have probably never happened. even if you dont believe we are pushing a NWO dont you think its a little egotistical for the US to act like the watch dog for the world. If we spent half the money we have spent on this war on healthcare and helping the lower class the world would be a much better place!

my view as an American anyway...

[Edited on 19-5-2004 by metalmessiah]

Wrong, in an interview in 1995 Osama said that even when the US was helping him get rid of the Russians, that they were thinking on how to attack the west, and they saw the west as a threat. Osama just used us to stab us in the back. Check on the forums, I have posted links and information about all of this.

[Edited on 19-5-2004 by Muaddib]

Well, I hate to be the one to tell ya this, but, the mentality you speak of covers the surface of the entire planet. The Big Name Hate Groups of today are of course the Americans against the Iraqi People. But if you remember, before that it was U.S. & Russia, U.S. & Japan, Germany & Jew, Spanish/European & Native American, Blacks & Whites, Christians, Catholics, Moores, Vikings, Scottish, British, bla bla bla bla bla.

How about the Hatfield's and McCoys, Male & Female, Rich & Poor and even the Sneaches with Stars on their bellies against the Sneaches without Stars. In fact I don't believe there has ever been a time when Intolerance and Hatred have not been alive and kicking in the History of Mankind for the purpose of Justifying Murder and/or Genocide of others. Hell, we even wipe out entire species of animals cause 'they deserve it' for one reason or another.

My advice is to avoid trying to establish a percentile or statistic measurement of the Human desire to hate and destroy, it can't be done with any accuracy. Take each individual one at a time and leave it at that. At the same time, hope and pray that the rest will soon realize their mistake and become aware of the problem which they have been a slave to.

In the mean time, do what you can to help if possible. You would think it would make sense that hating and justifying the death of an entire Race, Group, or Nation based upon the actions of certain Individuals is pointless and destined to fail. However, mankind seems to embrace and nurture lifestyles which are equally Pointless and Destined to Fail too, which helps explain how Thousands of Years of History have all had their share of Bloodshed and Stupidity.

Mr. Steve, while I wouldn't dare speak for all my countrymen I think that most people do not think that Iraq was responsible for 9/11. Everyone is fully aware it was Usama. So to answer your question, I would have to say it's a big NOPE.

The Bush doctrine of pre-emption is why we are fighting in Iraq. The President believed Iraq would be a threat in the future and so he ordered the military to attack them. Links between Al Queda and Iraq were known about before the war. The beheading of Berg recently was done by a well known Al Queda operative who was known to be in Iraq before the war.
Zarqawi


Variable

Originally posted by Muaddib
Wrong, in an interview in 1995 Osama said that even when the US was helping him get rid of the Russians, that they were thinking on how to attack the west, and they saw the west as a threat. Osama just used us to stab us in the back.

isnt that just another example of what I am saying? we were helping Afghanistan get rid of Russians. I dont see anything in that equation that directly involves the US. just another shining example of us sticking our nose where it doesnt belong. read between the lines what osama is saying there. he could see us being diplomatic with Russia up front & going behind their back helping him. I dont generally trust people who talk out of both sides of their mouth either, do you?

[Edited on 19-5-2004 by Seekerof]

I do not think that most Americans would say "all Iraqis were involved in 9/11", because most of us know its not true, but there was a connection between Saddam and Al Qaeda, and there are still loyalists to Sadam and extremists in Iraq. We have heard in Jihadi news and websites the call for all the Islamic extremists to go and fight in Iraq against the coalition.

It is true that in war there are attrocities done to civilians, but is everyone forgetting the same attrocities that have been happening all over the world to other civilians also, done by Islamic extremists?

Are we to stop the war on terror and wait for terror to attack us all over again? They have been saying that they want to destroy the west, these news don't come from the government or the media, they come directly from Islamic extremists, like OBL, even Saddam announced in Iraq before 9/11 about attacks on US soil, i have posted these links, the information is there.

Yes, war is not pretty, it has never been, but what are we to do if a large group of people wants the destruction of the west? Wait for other attacks like 9/11, 3/11, over and over hoping that they will change their minds?

I don't see that as an option.

[Edited on 20-5-2004 by Muaddib]

I'm not saying just sit back & let them attack us by any means. I'm just saying for the last 50 years or so our foreign policy has been a little too intrusive. could I go to court & tell a judge that I hauled off & shot my neighbor because my other neighbor told me the guy I shot was about to shoot me? I could but would still end up being seen as the criminal. I just dont subscribe to the pre-emptive defense ideal I guess. I just believe the problems we are having were at least in part caused by us being a little overzealous for a long time. I agree we are in way too deep to sit back & wait for attacks now but I just dont see anything we are doing(besides Afghanistan) that is helping our cause. on the other hand, if we placed the 135,000 troops that are in Iraq at our borders and weak points here in the US it would make it much harder for terrorists to operate. place all the intel resources in Iraq here on our turf investigating the sleepers & what not & we will accomplish a great deal more than we have. IMHO show these people that hitting us isnt as easy as it once was...

seekerof, what got edited? did I post a naughty word or something? my apologies if I did...completely unintentional whatever it was

Metal...we did not create Islamic extremism. Islamic extremism comes from taking literally things that the prophet Mohammed did and wrote in the Koran, because of the violence these extremists grow up in, and the hatred is ingrained in their minds against what they call infidels.

There are probably Muslims that wouldnt do these things, but violence has been a part of radical Islam since it was founded.

Originally posted by mrsteve
I have a friend in America who spoke to his mailman a few days ago. They were discussing the photographs of the maltreatment and torture of the Iraqi prisoners at 'Abu Prison, The Mail man said, "Oh they deserve it because of September 11th". OMG This man believes Iraqis are terrorists and responisble for the WTC attacks.

He probably knows our mailman then. He really is a gormless bastard, forever delivering other people's mail to us and losing ours. KayEm's friend worked part-time for the mail a few years ago and saw the incompetance of her 'co-workers' at first hand. She knew what she was doing, but did they give her a job - of course not.

Its not much of a shock to discover that many people actually believe that Iraq was responsible for 9-11 because most of these cretins rarely pick up a decent newspaper and get their 'news' from the bloke next door whose brother saw it on a porn-website so it must be true.

Arseholes, the lot of them.

Ignorance. Utter ignorance. The American nation shouldn't be allowed to be the only super power if it repeatedly demonstrates itself to be that stupid, which it does. I get the impression that their leader, GW, is one such ignoramus.