Number of victims to unknown virus growing! State of emergency to be imposed in Ukraine?

Originally posted by ecoparity
reply to post by JBA2848

 

There's not one bit of evidence supporting any of these alternate causes of death, why people want to deny that swine flu is killing people all over the World is beyond me but people believe all kinds of insane things so enjoy yourselves, I suppose.

The main reason people feel the need to prove that it is something else, I think, is because of their egos. I'm not saying that they are egotistical or have inflated egos at all, but just because their ego is what is making them feel the need to prove its something else. Here's why: at one point we all believed that H1N1 was harmless and nothing but hype.

Most people who follow this sort of alternative news, like to think they are "smarter" than the normal population. Part of thinking they are smart means that they don't like to admit that they were wrong, especially about a mindset that they held so recently. That would mean they weren't as smart as they thought they were. Some egos just can't allow that to happen, instead they must search for any other possibility that lets their ego save face, putting truth in 2nd place...

But, of course, the TRUTH is, none of us know for 100% positive what anything is. Time isn't even real. Matter doesn't really exist... Can anybody define gravity?

Alternative theories can't hurt anybody, if they are ruled out, they will move on to the next alternative theory to prop-up their ego. We really have to stop acting like parents, each of us deciding what information should or should not reach the world... If people are too stupid to separate the wheat from the chaffe and somehow die from the result, then maybe that's Darwin saying "Hi". The greater problem is when the information is limited and people don't have the option to make up their own minds...

Atleast we can all agree now that taking the vaccine isn't the smartest choice, the D225G mutation has shown to be resistant.

www.recombinomics.com...

The above characterization of A/Lviv/N6/2009, which was placed on deposit at GISAID by Mill Hill, raises concerns about the evasion of pandemic H1N1 sequences which change position 225. The above isolate has only one amino acid change in HA, D225G, which strongly implicates D225G in the low reactor results. A low reactor reduces the titer by four fold or more, which signals a mismatch. Mismatched vaccine create the potential for the section of the variant, which could create problems since D225G was found in four of four fatal cases in Ukraine, and several countries (Brazil, Ukraine, Norway, France, China) found D225G in fatal and or severe cases.

Actually, according to Niman's analysis, the vaccine will actually cause this D225G mutation to become more rampant.

articles.mercola.com...


European scientists and health authorities are facing angry questions about why H1N1 flu has not caused death and destruction on the scale first feared, and they need to respond deftly to ensure public support.

Accusations are flying in British and French media that the pandemic has been "hyped" by medical researchers to further their own cause, boost research grants and line the pockets of drug companies. Britain's Independent newspaper this week asked "Pandemic? What Pandemic?"

France's Le Parisien newspaper ran the headline: "Swine flu: why the French distrust the vaccine" and noted a gap between the predicted impact of H1N1 and the less dramatic reality."Although some 30-odd people have died....the disease is not really frightening," it said. "Dangerous liaisons between certain experts, the labs and the government, the obscurity of the contracts between the state and the pharma firms have added to the doubt."

In response, scientists are walking a fine line. They say that although the virus is mild, it can still kill, and that the relatively low fatalities in Europe are in part, the result of official response to their advice. However, in Britain, health authorities' original worst-case scenario -- which said as many as 65,000 could die from H1N1 -- has twice been revised down and the prediction is now for around 1,000 deaths, way below the average annual toll of 4,000 to 8,000 deaths from seasonal winter flu. - SOURCE: Swine flu skepticism demands deft response (Nov 12, 2009)


Dr. Mercola's Comments: There is plenty to be optimistic about as it seems the tide may be slowly turning on this swine flu debacle, showing it for the hoax it really is. European scientists are now demanding answers to the growing inconsistencies.

And, while many so-called scientific experts have criticized me and others who have spoken out about this senseless mass-vaccination campaign, more of the scientific community is now coming to the same conclusions we've been talking about for months.

It looks as though the swine flu pandemic of 2009 will go down as one of the biggest government and pharmaceutical scams ever, renewing a healthy, and necessary, skepticism about the swine flu vaccine and the dubious dealings behind the implementation of worldwide mass-vaccination programs.

reply to post by Kailassa



"Discussion needs a range of POVs to progress, and people who try to prevent rival views being discussed hinder everyone's learning."


You got that right Kailassa. I'm with you 100% plus.

reply to post by calohan


Why doesn't surprised me, yes I remember, because this is just the repeat of 76 pandemic, but back then the CDC big man in charge and the WHO secretary were asked to resign, this time around follow the money.

See, after I got all the information on the swine flu history and background, I decided to follow the money, it seems that is not only the big pharma involved on the profits merry go around

The Swine Flu Hoax,

When the avian flu scare arrived, no one questioned it. This time, things are different. Those with some brains, a memory and internet ingenuity are on the case. Let’s hope this message gets out.

Tamiflu is made and patented by Gilead Sciences and Donald Rumsfeld was the chairman of this company before he joined the Bush administration. When the Avian Flu scare flashed across the television sets of Americans, Gilead Sciences stock went through the roof.

The largest shareholder of Gilead Sciences is the FMR Corporation. This company is owned by Grover Glenn Norquist, a well-connected Republican activist with close ties to business and the media. Norquist was the Executive Director of the College Republican National Committee in the 1980's and he oversaw the transformation of the committee into a conservative grassroots powerhouse for the Reagan administration. His credentials and resume include being a:

- Lobbyist for Microsoft
- Member, board of directors, National Rifle Association
- Member, board of directors, American Conservative Union
- Member, Council on Foreign Relations (2001)
- Consultant for Janus-Merritt Strategies, a lobbying firm


People that has strike rich with the pandemic are, Rumsfeld, Norquist and Goldman Sachs (another major shareholder) do not have the general public's best interest at heart. They will manipulate every connection they have in government, media and the health-care industry to make this a financial windfall. I'm not insinuating they created the swine flu itself -they are just capitalizing on a virus that just isn't that much of a threat.

www.nowpublic.com...

No wonder the fat rats behind all this pandemic scare have to device ways to keep the scaremongering going, what else but taking anything unusual from the deaths and suffering to hint a mutating deadly virus.

And still some will fall for the lies and promote just that, thanks to the sad situation in Ukraine.

I only see one group of people whining constantly about how people are trying to "force them out of the discussion" which is their way of saying don't counter their theories with science, I suppose.

I only see one group of people making accusations about posters to try and discredit them and silence them and it sure isn't coming from this side.

If alternative medicine wants to be taken seriously maybe it should start by embracing science and policing it's own against all the quacks and snake oil salesmen out there. I didn't slam all of alternative medicine, like I said there's some good in it but there's a lot of lunacy wrapped up in it as well.

I stand by my post about the alternate pathogen theorists who have been a constant source of crackpot theory in these discussions, if some of you want to take them for real then by all means, go for it.

I'll stick with the news and updates threads where this crap is off topic, this thread stopped being a source of information quite a while ago thanks to some people.

reply to post by Kailassa


"The sincerity of most of the posters here is palpable. They bring open hearts and open minds, sharing what information and ideas they have. However there is still one poster who threatens, ridicules, refuses to respond when corrected and tries to push all those who disagree with him out of the thread. And that poster, Eco, is you. I'm pretty well on your side Eco about HiNi being the main problem. But that belief is becoming modified through learning from other posters here who have so much to teach about what else is going on I'm grateful to every one of them for educating me. If you are here to learn, Eco, try reading posts with some humility. If not, then leave your opinions of posters out of it and leave us to it."


I have noticed the same. The sincerity of most of the posters here is palpable, except for one............ who poses as two.

reply to post by ecoparity


"If alternative medicine wants to be taken seriously maybe it should start by embracing science and policing it's own against all the quacks and snake oil salesmen out there. I didn't slam all of alternative medicine, like I said there's some good in it but there's a lot of lunacy wrapped up in it as well."


Hey Eco, stop talking about yourself. If there's any lunacy here, you own it.

Well, what have we here. This all sounds pretty "alternative" to me. Bring out that snake oil.

Swine flu diagnosis doubts prompt tests rethink.

Scores of swine flu cases in Scotland may have been wrongly diagnosed by family doctors, it emerged today, forcing health officials to abandon a new testing regime.

Scottish ministers announced last week that GPs were to be allowed to diagnose the virus at their surgeries, rather than rely on lab tests.

The number of cases soared to 498 by the weekend, followed on Sunday by the first death of someone with swine flu outside the Americas. The victim, Jacqui Fleming, 38, from Carnwadric, Glasgow, also had underlying health problems.

www.guardian.co.uk...


MOD NOTE: Posting work written by others


[edit on Mon Nov 30 2009 by DontTreadOnMe]

reply to post by calohan


And this from the same "source" who reported 200 people died in Canada from the vaccines....

I don't know how to put this so you'll finally get it - they are only testing hospital cases for swine flu, most "diagnosis" is being done via phone call.

Reports of people being "misdiagnosed" are impossible otherwise, if they're hospitalized they're tested, if not they aren't. More noise that means absolutely nothing.

How are those autopsy results for Ukraine coming along, any luck on obtaining any yet?

Every Dr, virologist and scientist in the World is wrong and "insane" according to you and the three or four people on ATS willing to believe you with no evidence. Until you provide some valid, scientific proof you're just another theorist, sorry to have to break it to you.

reply to post by ecoparity


"I'll stick with the news and updates threads where this crap is off topic, this thread stopped being a source of information quite a while ago thanks to some people."


Promises, promises Eco. But something keeps drawing you back in fascination. So I shall continue.

Also, I see you've expanded your vocabulary a bit ("crap").

I read somewhere last week that the count was 400 death in Ukraine from flu like symptoms?...

Panic over hundreds of flu deaths exploited by Ukraine's politicians

Tracy McVeigh, chief reporter The Observer, Sunday 22 November 2009 Article history

A flu pandemic in Ukraine that has triggered a nationwide panic is worsening this weekend with up to 400 deaths already reported.

The arrival of the virus, suspected by the World Health Organisation to be swine flu but possibly a combination of the H1N1 strain and a respiratory illness, has paralysed the country's fragile health system and could even lead to the postponement of the general election which is scheduled for 17 January.
............

www.guardian.co.uk...

I hope the members in these areas are well.

Eat lots of garlic, and onions, at least it will keep people away from you.

I know, bad joke in a bad time, but just trying to encourage the members in this area.

It is obvious the government in the Ukraine, the WHO, the UN ect are using this as an excuse for their goal.



[edit on 29-11-2009 by ElectricUniverse]

reply to post by calohan


Do you see me posting any news in this thread anymore?

All you do is complain and whine about how "oppressed" you are by me, even though I have no power to moderate you or stop you from spamming the forum to death. You've joined others in making constant, baseless accusations about me despite being told not to several times by the mods.

You're not persecuted, you just can't prove your BS and you don't want anyone around to point out how full of it you are. It's amazing how this small group of people in these discussion continue to push that same theme.

"Mean old eco, he's oppressing my information".

I only see one small group of people here making multiple posts and taking up an entire page with one extremely long post on occasion and I only see one group actively attacking other posters.

There are other members who disagree with you, I don't see you accusing them of being "agents" or using multiple accounts. No, you come in as a "brand new member" and immediately your issue lies with me. Amazing.

Why don't you concentrate on proving your claims and leave my name out of your posts completely? Unless your purpose is to create conflict with me I don't see why that would be a problem for you.

IN 1918 THERE WAS NEAR UNANIMOUS OPINION THAT A FLU WAS NOT CAUSING THE PANDEMIC


In what today would surely be, and was in fact pointed to in the Ukraine, 1918 obviously yielded many, many cases of Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome (ARDS), unlike any flu ever known. As previously mentioned, Roger, among others favors suspecting tuberculosis in all cases of acute respiratory failure of unknown origin (Roger P. M., Deloffre Prognosis of acute tuberculosis respiratory distress syndrome, 4 cases. Press Med 1995; 24(22): 1021–1024.). One thing is certain, ARDS caused by miliary TB is associated with just as high a fatality rate as ARDS caused by H1N1 or any other viral disease (Kim J. Y., Park Y. B. Miliary tuberculosis and acute respiratory distress syndrome. Int J Tuberc Lung Dis 2003;
7(4): 359–364).

Also unknown in 1918, but pertinent, since Kansas lies squarely in America’s
‘‘dustbowl’’, were the results of a European experiment wherein guinea pigs exposed to organisms like Avian tuberculosis (again, found in Swine tuberculosis) got little or no lung disease. However, when these mycobacteria were placed in dust aerosols, guinea pigs came down with progressive, fatal lung disease, not unlike what was occurring in the pandemic of 1918 [Tacquet Gernez-Rieux C. An experimental study of interactions between Pneumoconiosis and mycobacterial infections. Ann NY Acad Sci 1972;106.].

This is not unlike the particular matter called “soot” or “gray smog” that today pollutes the Ukraine, with its voracious appetite for coal.

Thus, although it has been proposed that infection with fowl (or swine) tuberculosis requires some ‘‘defect’’ in the human immune system, that defect could be as simple as dust tying up the body’s defenses. Certainly a previous tuberculosis infection, common in 1918, with or without accompanying ‘‘chronic bronchitis’’ would be, in certain cases, more than enough to qualify many as ‘‘compromised host’’, unleashing an animal or soil
non-tuberculosis mycobacterial infection. Expert Rosenzweig found a surprising number of these cases were in younger adults free of coexisting disease.[Rosenzweig DY. Pulmonary mycobacteria infections due to
Mycobacterium avium complex. Clinical features and course in 100 consecutive patients. Chest 1979;75:115.]. Rosenzweig isolated a case of Fowl (swine) tuberculosis (M. avium intercellular) in human lungs [Rosenzweig DY. Atypical mycobacteriosis. Clin Chest Med 1980;1:273–84.], commenting, that, although the average case of fowl TB in humans was thought to involve host compromise, that otherwise healthy hosts could also be affected in which severe and progressive diseases would and did occur. Mycobacterium kansasii and certain forms of M. avium intercellulare are the commonest forms of nonhuman tuberculosis in human (lungs).

Although pigs could be infected by human tuberculosis as well, the most prevalent tuberculosis found in their autopsied bodies was far and away
fowl or bird tuberculosis (M. avium), which affected a wide range of bird species, including water fowl, migratory birds, and domesticated birds as well as a number of mammals [Avian Tuberculosis, In: Merck veterinary manual. 8th ed. Philadelphia: National Publishing Inc.; 1998. p. 1952].

Dr. William Welch, one of the heads of America’s 1918 military medical corps, and one of America’s greatest doctors ever, also realized, first hand, that this particular ‘‘Influenza’s’’ clinical symptoms truly shocked medical officers across the country. Instead of the usual flu, which gave mild to moderate fever, Patients could spike to 105 or 106 degrees with accompanying delirium.

Instead of the sore throat, cough and various joint aches and pains, patients bled from the nose and ears, expectorated bloody, foamy sputum, became blue from lack of lung oxygen delivery, at which point it was only a matter of hours away from death thru suffocation from pneumonia, a horrible death[Grist NR. Pandemic influenza 1918. Brit Med J 1979;22(December):1632–3.]. At some army camps there averaged 100
deaths per day and upon autopsy, sliced blue swollen lungs exuded bloody froth, causing pathologists to say, over and over again that this must be some kind of new disease for certainly it wasn’t Influenza.

The War Department knew that it was the pneumonia and not the influenza that was doing the killing, they just had no idea what was causing the pneumonia. All of these signs and symptoms have subsequently been documented in the literature on disseminated tuberculosis and atypical
tuberculosis but it proved simply overwhelming at the time it was happening. The first autopsy of a victim occurred in Chicago in April. The pathologist doing it was besides himself seeing the lungs full of hemorrhages and troubled enough to mention to the Editor-in Chief of The Journal of Infectious Diseases ‘‘to look over it as a new disease’’ [ Jordan E. Epidemic influenza. 1st ed.. Chicago: AMA; 1927 ]. Yet, Gorgas, supreme head of America’s army corps insisted on referencing ‘‘influenza’’.

To be certain the spectacle of witnessing several autopsies was too much, even for William Henry Welch, a seasoned pathologist and top medical
lieutenant in Gorgas’s Executive Committee of the General Medical Board [ Flexner S, Flexner JT. William Welch and The Heroic Age of American Medicine. New York: Viking Press; 1941.]. Welch knew that surveys made in and around 1918 revealed that almost all adults in Europe and America were tuberculin positive, having at some time been infected with the bacilli.


Into this situation now came a seemingly new unknown disease, which, like tuberculosis, once in army camps thrived on fatigue, exposure and crowding. It certainly was acting like a mycobacteria. Was it a combination involving
Avian tuberculosis? One 1918 army medical officer had aptly mentioned to him that ‘‘Whenever you mobilize and call to the colors a 1000 men, you call
with them at least 20 billion tubercle bacilli, 10 billion typhoid, 5 billion pneumonia, and a couple of million dysentery germs’’ [ Hutchinson W. The Doctor in war. Boston: Houghton, Mifflin; 1918. p. 3]. But what that medical officer failed to mention was that of these only TB specifically could and did routinely cause ‘‘pneumonia’’.

In 1918, Camp Devens, near Boston was supposed to have 50,000 men, or did have before the epidemic broke loose. Starting with a flu-like illness
in what appeared to be grippe or Influenza, soldiers brought to the hospital seemed to quickly develop the most viscous type of pneumonia ever recorded.

Two hours after admission mahogany spots appeared over their cheekbones leading within hours to a blue cyanosis extending from their ears to spread all over the face until racial differentiation was impossible. From that point, it was only a matter of hours until death came, following the struggle for air and suffocation. Camp Devens was now seeing close to 100 such deaths a day, including an outrageous number of doctors and nurses among them.

MOD NOTE: Posting work written by others

[edit on Mon Nov 30 2009 by DontTreadOnMe]

reply to post by ecoparity


"How are those autopsy results for Ukraine coming along, any luck on obtaining any yet?"


Yes, I want YOU to immediately obtain those autopsy results for all of us to see in this Forum. It will be extremely interesting to review such results, I promise you that. But my guess is they will not release them to you or anyone else. Prove me wrong and I will limit my posts to once a week.

And what I mean by autopsy results is complete autopsy results, not only with pathology but with which specific diagnostic stains, cultures, PCR's and immunoflorescense were done, and what bacterial and mycobacterial pathogens they have ruled out............ in addition to the standard H1N1 diagnostics (sequencing) which I am certain that they did do.

[edit on 29-11-2009 by calohan]

reply to post by ecoparity


"I don't know how to put this so you'll finally get it - they are only testing hospital cases for swine flu, most "diagnosis" is being done via phone call."


Oh, but I know how to put it to you.

What is an eleven letter word for MALPRACTICE.

We are not in PhD or virology la la land here. Any Physician who diagnosis's over the phone will not be a physician for very long.

reply to post by calohan


The interview with the head of forensics for Ukraine has been posted several times. He stressed repeatedly that there was no bacterial agent involved, that they died of swine flu / para-influenza.

Can you at least come up with an interview where he's changed his mind since then and determined they all died of TB instead? (Including the hundreds of Doctors who died who would have been tested for TB).

reply to post by calohan


Why do you require several posts in a row like that?

CDC and WHO set the policy, Doctors are following it. I highly doubt any of them will be sued for malpractice.

Do you need some news articles proving this is public policy world wide?

You're making the same mistake previous posters made, claiming an alternate pathogen which would require every Dr, pathologist, lab tech, virologist, researcher, etc involved, in the WORLD to be incompetent and /or willing to lie.

Even IF the hospitals missed TB or some other pathogen in the tests I highly doubt the autopsies would have. Especially not every single time in every single country.

I'm not opposed to co-infective theories with valid science behind them but there's nothing to back this theory that TB is actually killing the swine flu victims. At best, we can say the swine flu leaves victims in a state where pneumonia is almost guaranteed (in all but the most mild cases).

Originally posted by ecoparity
reply to post by calohan

 

The interview with the head of forensics for Ukraine has been posted several times. He stressed repeatedly that there was no bacterial agent involved, that they died of swine flu / para-influenza.

Can you at least come up with an interview where he's changed his mind since then and determined they all died of TB instead? (Including the hundreds of Doctors who died who would have been tested for TB).

I TOLD YOU TO OBTAIN AND PUBLISH THE ENTIRE AUTOPSY REPORT, and the above is your sick answer?!! I WANT HIS ACTUAL REPORT, IN FULL.

YOU ARE LYING. He never did any bacterial studies and certainly not for valid candidates like Hemophylus Influenza (a bacteria) or TB.

For the last time sleaze, YOU PROVIDE THE MEMBERS OF THIS FORUM WITH A COMPLETE H1N1 AUTOPSY REPORT OF YOUR CHOICE, FROM ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD, AND PUT IT DOWN IN BLACK AND WHITE for all to see.

reply to post by seattletruth


'Atleast we can all agree now that taking the vaccine isn't the smartest choice, the D225G mutation has shown to be resistant.'

Am I missing something? I didn't see an actual consensus on this.
It really depends how widespread the variant is. Some people might argue that the vaccine still offers protection to the original strain and is therefore better than nothing.
Don't get me wrong, at the moment I have no intention of getting the vaccine. I can think of a few reasons not to get the vaccine but I don't understand the one that says that because the D225 mutation is resistant, there is no point in getting it.
Is that what you are saying?



[edit on 30-11-2009 by unicorn1]

reply to post by ecoparity


"Even IF the hospitals missed TB or some other pathogen in the tests I highly doubt the autopsies would have. Especially not every single time in every single country."




What do I care what you "highly doubt". Pure (and obviously uneducated) OPINION.

Again, show me the DETAILED H1N1 autopsy of your choice, from any part of the world and we will see if they did the special stains and cultures necessary for a complete bacterial, as well as viral investigation.