Number of victims to unknown virus growing! State of emergency to be imposed in Ukraine?

KAILASSA, Thanks for the props. You are quite right about the need for a certain decorum in these discussions. Wishing harm to another is a pretty good indication that they have painted themselves into a corner, and having suddenly discovered that fact, they lash out.

It is typical of the bully to threaten to take his ball and go home. If this were a mere college debate on an assigned subject, such juvenile behavior might be excused. This, however, is a subject regarding life and death in real time.

As for “Bon Voyage”, I am completely sincere. I have for many years, among other things, done a great deal of sports photography as a hobby. One thing which has always impressed me was sportsmanship. Respect among rivals elevates the quality of their competition and encourages humane outcomes.

I know for a fact that the information blooming on this forum has the capacity to encourage its participants and readers to make well-considered decisions about their personal and familial hygiene regarding current and future threats to their health. If we can act as adults and respectfully contribute, it will go a long way towards preserving our separate honors and collective safety.

To wit…if your argument or point of view is effectively countered, don’t get mad and vindictive. Do what a good education is supposed to accomplish: create an open mind…because intellect, like an umbrella, functions best when fully open. Likewise, your posts elevate the discussion, and help us all to remain calm and deal effectively with this challenge.

-- Malcolm S. Forbes
Education's purpose is to replace an empty mind with an open one.

PHARMAHOAX

Ecoparity:

“The fact is only a tiny percentage of all swine flu cases get lab testing, the article is much ado about nothing.”

Then how do you know that they were “swine flu?” That sentence makes no sense. If biological samples are not collected for testing (and tests actually conducted) in the vast majority of illnesses, how are you able to characterize them as swine flu? The conduct of forensic testing is to find the guilty party whether it be bacteria, virus or a combination, and in what prevailing collateral circumstances.

The strongest “evidence” one generally encounters goes pretty much like this: “Well he/she had “flu-like symptoms.” Testing is too expensive. Gee, with all the money Big Pharma is making, you’d think they would be eager to pay for testing to prove the necessity for their vaccines. No, they just let dead people roll by on the way to the morgue, cluck their tongues and say “Musta been the H1N1 flu with all those flu-like symptoms. You folks better hurry and get your shots!”

Ecoparity:

“If you have autopsy results which found the Ukraine victims actually died of TB then by all means, please post some links.”


Here are a few lines from…Hpathy

by Dr Rebecca Carley www.hpathy.com...

We do NOT know what disease the people were/are coming down with. We
do know that doctors are describing the disease as Pneumonic Plague,...
or as some type of hemorrhagic fever, or as hemorrhagic influenza, or
as hemorrhagic pneumonia. We know that the illness, whatever it is,
does not appear to be A/H1N1. We do not know if the disease is a
recombination of A/H1N1 with other viruses or some totally different
virus or if it is in fact a virus. We know that the World Health
Organization (WHO) has had several days to sequence the genes of the
disease but has failed to release this data.

We know that WHO has NOT called for the quarantining of the Ukraine
or the shutdown of all global travel to/from the area of infection and
that this is the same thing that they did when Mexican Swine Flu(A/H1N1) first broke out and that the failure to contain that virus
early on ensured its spread throughout the world.

We know that the internal temperature of the lungs of those with a
terminal case of what many are calling 'Ukrainian Plague' is often
from 130F to 135F. We do know that autopsies show that the lungs are
filled with blood, and are black in color, and that the lung tissue
has turned to mush. We know that patients who first show any signs of
illness usually crash in less than 48 hours, sometimes the same day.

Similar results have been cropping up allover the planet since that post. So far, the H1N1 devotees have failed to make a convincing claim of responsibility for little alleged "terrorist."

PHARMAHOAX

Here is latest info from Ukraine:
The Health Ministry is forecasting outbreaks of measles and rubella in the period of 2010-2011.

Health Minister Vasyl Kniazevych announced this in an interview published in the Uriadovyi Kurier newspaper.

«There will be no additional vaccination against measles and rubella in 2009. According to forecasts by epidemiologists, the next outbreaks of measles and rubella can be expected in 2010-2011,» he said.

According to him, Ukraine lost the money that international organizations are allocating for vaccination against measles and rubella because of the public’s lack of confidence in mass vaccination.

Kniazevych said that estimates indicated that the government would need UAH 70-100 million for purchase of vaccines against measles and rubella.

As Ukrainian News earlier reported, Kniazevych is forecasting that vaccination against the influenza A(H1N1) will begin in December.

The Health Ministry has estimated that Ukraine requires 12.5 million doses of vaccine against the influenza A (H1N1).

The Health Ministry is forecasting a second wave of the influenza A (H1N1) epidemic in the period of December 2009-January 2010.

link to article:
www.ukranews.com...

Something that just occured to me after reading about the rubella and measles vaccines.

When I was 13 it was routine that we all had the TB test which was followed by the TB vaccine, if required. I'm 40 now so that was quite awhile back! However, when my daughter turned 13 I asked our private GP in Spain about the TB vaccine and he said that it was no longer given as a matter of routine in either Spain or Britain. (Although we can use the Spanish health system, my Spanish isn't great, so when it comes to medical matters I still prefer to see a British doctor to make sure nothing gets lost in translation.)

As we're told that the main thing making H1N1 flu different is that it affects mainly young people I'm curious to know when did routine vaccinations against TB stop? Why, if it is on the increase around the world, aren't they starting routine vaccinations again?

My grandad had TB - twice! The 2nd time he had it he was quarantined, when my mum was a young child, for around 6 months. He'd initially had a cough that then developed into a chest infection (according to his GP) and was only diagnosed with TB when he began to cough up blood.

During his stay in hospital he found out he'd previously had TB, without even knowing, and had recovered without any medication. The doctors told him they knew he'd previously had TB because of scaring on his lungs. Obviously, that shows that it is possible to get a mild version of TB and recover without even knowing you've had but then why didn't his immune system kick in 2nd time around, like it did the 1st? Is there more than one type of TB?

It doesn't look like things have slowed down that much in Ukraine.

In general, 1,802,805 people have fallen ill with influenza and acute respiratory viral infections since October 29, 18,978 people for the last 24 hours.

www.ukranews.com...

Basically, in one month's time nearly 2 million people have taken ill. Of those hospitalized over 3/4 have returned home according to the report.

Significant testing will not likely ever get started and so we will probably never really know what it is that they have there.

[edit on 11/29/2009 by wayno]

Originally posted by wayno
It doesn't look like things have slowed down that much in Ukraine.

In general, 1,802,805 people have fallen ill with influenza and acute respiratory viral infections since October 29, 18,978 people for the last 24 hours.

www.ukranews.com...

Basically, in one month's time nearly 2 million people have taken ill. Of those hospitalized over 3/4 have returned home according to the report.

Significant testing will not likely ever get started and so we will probably never really know what it is that they have there.

[edit on 11/29/2009 by wayno]

They have a serious case of political posturing... just as explained in most of the intelligence sites.

Meanwhile, the wannabe doctors and scientists who never thought disease was real suddenly woke up and became aware of biology. Funny how that works.

reply to post by JJay55


Is a good article in the global research about the geopolitics of the Ukraine, corruption and big money.

reply to post by butcherguy


We don't have anything special here in California that I have heard of. I don't think we are even especially hit by H1N1....

How fast can TB Kill?

In the early phase of any new TB epidemic, perhaps from a new strain (human, swine, fowl and cow TB can all exchange genetic materials to create a new strain), tuberculosis manifests itself as an acute, generalized disease, and only much later the chronic pulmonary tuberculosis we know in today’s Western world. An example can be found in the high mortality during the ‘‘Influenza’’ pandemic, when African American’s were brought to fight in France during the World War I, large numbers of them dying from the accelerated tuberculous ‘‘galloping consumption’’ of yesteryear.

There has been much documentation that in certain cases, depending on the virulence of the tubercular strain, that the infection can spread rapidly, causing a disease both acute and fatal, with signs and symptoms so unspecific that a proper diagnosis is impossible to make. Prior to the current Swine Flu pandemic, such fulminating tuberculosis occured mostly in Latin America and Asia [ Dubos R, Dubos J. The white plague. New Brunswick: Rutgers University Press; 1987 ]. But at all times in the history of man, tuberculosis has manifested itself with extreme violence and destructiveness when it attacks populations newly exposed to it or a new strain of the disease.

We are talking tuberculosis with a rapid fulminating course, generalized as well as meningeal, in exactly the same fashion as the many cases of ‘‘meningitis’’ attributed to the‘‘Influenza’’ of 1918. Incredibly, and as a precise measure, the tuberculosis rates during WWI, which began to rise in 1915, with the onset of war, were even higher than when TB was thought to certainly be destroying the civilization of Europe in the early 1800s. And suspiciously, TB rates plummeted exactly at the time ‘‘Influenza’’ did at the succession of that War in 1919 [IBID Dubos R, Dubos J. The white plague. New Brunswick: Rutgers University Press; 1987].

I would just like to throw one more point in regarding tuberculosis vs the tubercular miasm:

-Remember, many of the people in the Ukraine who fell sick at first were medical personnel...i.e. physicians

-All medical personnel (at least in our country) are required to get tested for TB at least once a year, and then must be treated if you come up positive. I'm pretty sure that medical personnel in every country must also get tested for TB every year, too.

-So, think of all those physicians who got sick in the beginning of this epidemic. It's highly unlikely that they actually had TB at the time. They could, however, have the tubercular miasm that was worsened (aggravated) when they got infected by the flu.

oops, double post

[edit on 29-11-2009 by nikiano]

reply to post by PHARMAHOAX


www.quackwatch.com...

Above link is about "License Suspension of Rebecca Lee Carley, M.D."

Reasons for the Suspension
The BPMC decision was based on proceedings that included ten days of hearings held between July 2002 and January 2003. The key testimony appears to be that of Zev Labins, a board-certified psychiatrist who interviewed Carley three times and concluded that she was delusional. As the BPMC documents note:

Dr. Labins found the Respondent to have a delusional disorder with the presence of narcissistic and borderline personality traits. He testified that ~he has delusions of persecution and grandiosity and that she believes that she is being persecuted because she is special. . . .

Dr. Labins also testified that the Respondent believes that her husband sodomized their son as part of a satanic ritual because she does not vaccinate and because she cures children with autism. Dr. Labins stated that the Respondent believes that her husband was fulfilling the government's role in performing anal penetration on their child and that this penetration sends a surge of energy to the child's brain resulting in the compartmentalization of the brain. Dr. Labins also stated that the Respondent believes that the government is interested in pursuing all persons who are opposed to vaccinating children, which is part of a global government plot in collusion with the drug industry. Finally, Dr. Labins testified that the Respondent was unable to consider any other basis for what she alleged happened to her child. . . .

A delusional disorder occurs when someone has a fixed false belief without any other apparent symptoms that would otherwise be present in other illnesses, and, characteristically, the person's behavior does not appear odd or bizarre in any way other than in those behaviors that are derivative of the delusion. . . .

The Respondent has both delusions of persecution and delusions of grandiosity, i.e., the Respondent believes that she is being persecuted because she has a special ability to heal autism, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, cancer and other autoimmune disorders. . . .

The Respondent refers to herself as "Ghandi with breasts" as well as having been stripped to the bone and being able to save the world. The Respondent has a sense of knowing something that other people do not know. There is a messianic theme to her delusional system. . . . The Respondent has even compared herself to Joan of Arc. . . .

The Respondent believes that the Nassau County Department of Social Services, the Office of Professional Medical Conduct ["OPMC"], the judiciary, the pharmaceutical industry, and the legislature, are all colluding to persecute her as a result of her practice of alternative medicine. [1]

The BPMC's Hearing Committee concluded:

The Respondent's delusions interfere with her practice of medicine because inherent to her delusions is a rigidity of thinking which involves the need to integrate all information into her preformed belief system. This need is intrinsically incompatible with the safe and effective practice of medicine because medicine involves being able to continuously reevaluate an initial diagnosis and consider differential diagnoses. The process of diagnosis requires the suspension of conclusions pending the accumulation of data. The Respondent believes that she already knows the answers before she begins to gather data. The Respondent believes that she is right, that she has special knowledge, and that her purpose on earth is to save others. . . .

Derivative of the Respondent's sense that she has special knowledge and that she is right is the notion that rules do not apply to her. This notion, at times, impairs her ability to maintain appropriate therapeutic boundaries in the physician-patient relationship. . . .

Finally, the Respondent has a continuous persistent impairment, which, in itself, is sufficient to render her unsafe to practice medicine [1].

I don't know how much faith I would put in this woman. She seems like a real nut case when you read about why she had her medical license suspended.

PDF of documents

[edit on 29-11-2009 by JBA2848]

reply to post by JBA2848


I ask for autopsy results and I get a loony suspended ex-Dr in another country...

We know what people died from because they ran lung tissue biopsies on the dead. If the people who died had suffered from TB I'm sure they would have found it during autopsy.

They did, however find swine flu in samples.

There's not one bit of evidence supporting any of these alternate causes of death, why people want to deny that swine flu is killing people all over the World is beyond me but people believe all kinds of insane things so enjoy yourselves, I suppose.

Originally posted by Maya00a
Is there more than one type of TB?

Yes.

For a more detailed answer:

Tuberculosis is most simply divided into two categories: pulmonary and extrapulmonary.
The vast majority of people suffering from TB have pulmonary tuberculosis, a chronic infection of the lungs.
But there's a lot more to it:

Tuberculosis is divided into three clinically important categories:

- Primary Tuberculosis
Primary tuberculosis refers to the infection process which eventually eliminates the pathogen or results in a stalemate between the Mycobacteria and the immune system. With most TB infections, the immune system is able to contain, although not eliminate, the Mycobacteria within the tubercle, preventing the spread of bacteria and progression of the disease. M. tuberculosis can remain in this impasse of dormant infection for many years.

- Secondary or Reactivated Tuberculosis
The infection can become reactivated if the Mycobacteria are able to rupture the tubercle and spread through the lungs. This reactivation typically happens to those with a weakened or suppressed immune system.

- Disseminated Tuberculosis
The spread of the disease within the body may result if infected macrophages moving through the blood and lymph transport the bacteria to other sites. Once infected, symptoms of disseminated TB correspond to the locations infected. The antiquated term "consumption" arose from the myriad of symptoms associated with disseminated tuberculosis, when those infected seemed to slowly waste away.

human-infections.suite101.com...

Tuberculosis like cancer can affect ANY part of the body:

Tuberculosis meningitis: Brain
Genitourinary TB:
Gastrointestinal TB:
Tuberculosis lymphadenitis (scrofula): Lymph
Cutaneous TB: TB of the skin
Uterus Ovarian TB:
Osteo-articular Skeletal - Bone - Joint TB:

www.articlesbase.com...

It could be that he had a related infection which was not "real" TB:

Other types of tuberculosis:

Below is a listing of some infections that are not actually tuberculosis but caused by a bacteria related to it. And yet they are still called tuberculosis or Environmental tuberculosis, or Atypical Tuberculosis.
The proper name for these infections is actually NTM - “Non tuberculosis mycobacterium”

* Mycobacterium Avium-Intracellulare
* Mycobacterium Chelonae
* Mycobacterium Fortuitum
* Mycobacterium Gordonae
* Mycobacterium Haemophilum
* Mycobacterium Kansasii
* Mycobacterium Marinum
* Mycobacterium Xenopi

www.articlesbase.com...

reply to post by nikiano


I can't even tell you how shocked I am that a pharmacist (or pharmacist tech, whichever) would actually believe in miasma.

For those who don't know this is the middle ages belief that "bad air" creates disease. This was how they explained diseases prior to the discovery of bacteria and viruses.

People believed just covering up a bad smell with perfume would protect them from disease.

There are some legitimate methods of alleviating illness in alternative medicine - acupuncture, certain herbs and plants but recycling ancient, pre-science beliefs like miasmas is every bit as valid as the belief that diseases are caused by "bad spirits".

I do hope you know the people coming here and positing new, alternate causes for the pandemic aren't for real. They're just here to create discord and see how many people they can sucker in. That's why the pathogen keeps changing and the proponents switching to brand new, day old accounts constantly.

Originally posted by PHARMAHOAX
. . .
As for “Bon Voyage”, I am completely sincere. I have for many years, among other things, done a great deal of sports photography as a hobby. One thing which has always impressed me was sportsmanship. Respect among rivals elevates the quality of their competition and encourages humane outcomes.
. . .

It's rare that a person who is using their brains to the best of their ability and is sincere will not have something to say that's worth hearing. And with us each having the internet at hand, where so much information is accessible, together we can solve pretty much anything - if we are open minded and patient, and willing to learn from each other and contribute what we can.

I have an adult son with an IQ around 60, but he's a deep thinker and always wants to understand everything, people, politics even, the whole world. And he sometimes (very painstakingly,) comes up with things I've never thought of. But I see people much smarter than him here being labelled fools and idiots.

I spent time on another forum I found it an honour to belong to, P4T, where for a while people co-operated like that, both sides presenting their arguments clearly, each side picking up facts from the other and helping the other side see their mistakes. Discussion could get heated, but it was without malice. We learned fast and it was much more fun that a previous forum in its early days, where everyone agreed with each other, meaning a thread consisted of an OP and back-patting.

Discussion needs a range of POVs to progress, and people who try to prevent rival views being discussed hinder everyone's learning.
Thanks for contributing and helping "keep it nice".

reply to post by JBA2848

I don't know how much faith I would put in this woman. She seems like a real nut case when you read about why she had her medical license suspended.

I am sorry. Have I missed something? Why should we care about this woman's condition? How is this in any way related to the subject of this thread?

I still have 3 people on ignore. If this has something to do with one of their posts, then perhaps its legit, but it seems off topic.

reply to post by wayno


She was being quoted and used as a expert by another poster to support there claims. I replied with information on the person being quoted showing that her statements should be called into question due to her documented mental condition.

Originally posted by ecoparity
reply to post by nikiano

 

I can't even tell you how shocked I am that a pharmacist (or pharmacist tech, whichever) would actually believe in miasma.

For those who don't know this is the middle ages belief that "bad air" creates disease. This was how they explained diseases prior to the discovery of bacteria and viruses.

People believed just covering up a bad smell with perfume would protect them from disease.

Aren't people stupid believing they can eat oranges, lemons and limes?
We all know orange lemon and lime are colours. Fancy them thinking they can eat a colour!

Or could one word have more than one meaning?

Eco, in giving us one definition of miasma and ridiculing it, you seem to be parodying an old disinfo technique: create an easily discredited strawman, say that's typical of opponent's arguments, and knock it down. The "bad air" definition of miasma is a strawman, as homeopathy, which you are discussing, uses the same word quite differently.

Hahnemann, who created homeopathy, found that once-off conditions needed different treatments than chronic conditions with the same symptoms. It took him many years of analysing what worked and what didn't to form his miasma theory, which Nikiano has already explained beautifully. It is not a theory about bad air . . .

Thanks to Nikiano's explanation and listing of symptoms of tubercular miasm, I've discovered I had TB as a child. After reading it I rang my mother and asked, and finally got told a truth. Due to an odd family situation, I'd never been told I had it and never been treated.
Now, at last, I know why I had bronchitis all the time, suffered so painfully from "pleurisy" and had episodes of lower-body paralysis.

I don't know why there should be any truth in homeopathy; it goes against what I understand about healing. But I've seen it work for friends, and I know one thing about life; it's far more complicated than any of us can understand. I look forward to the day when the far-seeing, future seeing, telepathy and out of body experiences I've had can be explained. There has to be a logical answer to everything, but the logic may be too complex for us to understand yet.

Another case in point is the theory that there are no germs or viruses.
I don't believe that theory for a moment, but there are many cases where that belief could have been more useful, and produces better results, than "germ theory". Observation proved that people who kept themselves and their environment clean and ate lots of vegetables were less likely to catch diseases. So some people thought disease was not caught at all, and just rose out of dirt and muck and constipation and exhorted others to be clean and eat well. (- rather like the miasma definition you gave.) The theory was wrong, but the effect kept people healthy.

The difference this effort to be clean made might be hard to imagine now, but in an age where obstetricians with unwashed hands wore bloodied, unwashed aprons with pride, as they showed the doctor delivered lots of babies . . .

I do hope you know the people coming here and positing new, alternate causes for the pandemic aren't for real. They're just here to create discord and see how many people they can sucker in. That's why the pathogen keeps changing and the proponents switching to brand new, day old accounts constantly.

The sincerity of most of the posters here is palpable. They bring open hearts and open minds, sharing what information and ideas they have.
However there is still one poster who threatens, ridicules, refuses to respond when corrected and tries to push all those who disagree with him out of the thread. And that poster, Eco, is you.

I'm pretty well on your side Eco about HiNi being the main problem. But that belief is becoming modified through learning from other posters here who have so much to teach about what else is going on
I'm grateful to every one of them for educating me.

If you are here to learn, Eco, try reading posts with some humility. If not, then leave your opinions of posters out of it and leave us to it.

Originally posted by ecoparity
reply to post by nikiano

 

I can't even tell you how shocked I am that a pharmacist (or pharmacist tech, whichever) would actually believe in miasma.

For those who don't know this is the middle ages belief that "bad air" creates disease. This was how they explained diseases prior to the discovery of bacteria and viruses.

People believed just covering up a bad smell with perfume would protect them from disease.

There are some legitimate methods of alleviating illness in alternative medicine - acupuncture, certain herbs and plants but recycling ancient, pre-science beliefs like miasmas is every bit as valid as the belief that diseases are caused by "bad spirits".

I do hope you know the people coming here and positing new, alternate causes for the pandemic aren't for real. They're just here to create discord and see how many people they can sucker in. That's why the pathogen keeps changing and the proponents switching to brand new, day old accounts constantly.

And I can't tell you how shocked I am that a supposed-virology expert doesn't remember the history of how vaccines were developed. (Or maybe you're the one who is the technician?)

The vaccine manufacturing business could not have been developed without the original work on nosodes and miasms. The first vaccine scientists publically thanked the homeopaths for all their hard work with nosodes. Without the homeopathic understanding of nosodes (disease tissue and bacteria, etc..) and yes, miasms, vaccinations never would have been developed.

I am a pharmacist. I'm a clinical pharmacist with a B.S. and a Doctor of Pharmacy degree. I also went to a year of homeoapthy school, plus I'm still working on completing two more homeoapthy correspondence courses. One of them was created especially for pharmacists.

Your surprise shows how much you do not know. First, miasms are not about "bad air." If you want to research them, do it yourself and you'll find that it is more about genetics than anything else. Hahnemann was basically, the first physician who began to recognise the effecs of chronic diseases handed down from generation to generation.

Secondly, if you're suprised that a pharmacist would understand about miasms, than you might be surprised to learn that one of my homeopathy teachers was an MD (a psychiatrist), the person who sat next to me was a cardiologist (MD), and I went to my last homeopathic conference with another MD who worked in Urgent Care. And my personal homeopath is also an MD, too. All three of us work in both the "main stream" health care field and, yes we also work with homeopathy. I am also a clinical hypnotherapist.

There are many, many health care professionals these days who work with homepathy and miasms. I would recommend that you go back and re-read the history of where vaccines came from. (Sadly, the homeopaths tried to warn the other physicians about the hazards of mass vaccination, but nobody listened to them.)

Before you rip into homeopathy and the theory of miasms, you should understand what it is first, before you go start trying to re-tell to all the untrue myths that were spread by the AMA years ago. Miasms are not "bad air."

Even Hippocrates himself said "sometimes you must treat with similars, and sometimes you must treat with opposites." Homeopathy is treating with similars, and allopathy (aka western medicine) is treating with opposites. Dr. Hahnemann, the German physician who founded the medical system of homepathy, was a brilliant physician who translated all the old Greek medical teachings in to 5 or 6 different languages. THat's how he re-discovered Hippocrates teachings. So, if you're going to diss on Hahnemann, that means that you're also dissing on Hippocrates.

And I hope YOU know that your theories aren't right, just because you keep quoting some famous virologist who owns his own vaccine company. The truth is, we don't know WHY the virus keeps mutating. For all we know, we could be forcing the flu virus to mutate with every new vaccine, the same way we force bacteria to mutate with every new antibiotic.



[edit on 29-11-2009 by nikiano]