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Number of victims to unknown virus growing! State of emergency to be imposed in Ukraine?

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posted on Nov, 30 2009 @ 03:15 PM
ECO: "The live virus vaccine nasal spray is a different story, however. It's entirely possible the people who took that vaccine may actually be walking incubators for D225G which will kill the unprotected around them while they remain safe."

Excellent! We agree on at least one point. Have a safe trip.


posted on Nov, 30 2009 @ 03:22 PM

Originally posted by JBA2848
reply to post by calohan

PDF file

You might want to read the above pdf file I linked for you.

Thanks anyway JBA but I am a firm believer in separating the messenger from the message, and as for that particular excerpt, I like the way she thinks.

posted on Nov, 30 2009 @ 04:12 PM
reply to post by nikiano

As I said, he hasn't updated his commentaries but here is what he had to say as of last night on the vaccine issue:

You confusion on the vaccine issue remains remarkable. The fact that the virus is becoming resistant to the vaccine does NOT mean that individuals should not avoid the vaccine. There are longer term public health issues, but no one (other than wackadoodlers) is advising against taking the only vaccine available. The above site has been following Recombinics commentaries quite closely and has posted quite a bit recently. However, that really isn't a secret or new as can be seen by looking at the Recombinomics "in the news" page

Your repeated posting of wackdoodle nonsense about Ukraine and vaccines, as well as repeated personal attacks remains annoying (but revealing). Wackadoodlers spend a lot of time copying and pasting information that they don't understand, but their posting patterns are much more revealing of the poster than the content of the posts (and they get responses that are largely driven by their posting patterns).


And another:

You seem to have a rather curious interpretation of the vaccines, which is more internet babble than anything else. Most of the H1N1 circulating does not have a receptor bindng domain change, and most natural antibody is not directed against the receptor binding domain change, wackadoodle nonsense notwithstading.


I said, he's still recommending the vaccine. I didn't say he was claiming the vaccine is effective on the D225G strain. Most of the virus in the wild at this time does NOT contain the D225G mutation.

Is it still a concern? Yes. Other posts by Dr Niman yesterday detail that he does not feel the vaccine will make the mutation worse, more prevalent or more deadly to those who took the dead virus vaccine. He's still looking at the live virus vaccine but the number of people who took it are minimal.

[edit on 30-11-2009 by ecoparity]

posted on Nov, 30 2009 @ 04:22 PM
reply to post by calohan

She "thinks" her ex husband was sodomizing her autistic son in order to send some kind of NWO energy into the boy's brain.

I really DON'T like the way she thinks. If at least one sane scientist disagrees with her I'll go with the sane source. Amazingly, thousands of sane sources disagree with her.

posted on Nov, 30 2009 @ 04:26 PM
Well, if Dr. Niman wants to still push the vaccine even though it appears that it won't be effective against the D225G mutation then that's his choice. But I for one find it ridiculous to keep pushing a vaccine that has severe potential side effects when the mutations seem to be making it more and more obsolete every day.

This is why the need to make a new flu vaccine every year...because after a while, the flu virus mutates, and the old vaccine is not effective.

posted on Nov, 30 2009 @ 04:32 PM

off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


posted on Nov, 30 2009 @ 04:57 PM
reply to post by PHARMAHOAX

No only that but the increase of pregnant women having miscarriages are another Stories.

Swine Flu Alert -- Shocking Vaccine Miscarriage Horror Stories
Posted by: Dr. story
November 28 2009

Now is web site for women to post the side effects during pregnancy, run by the CDC.

[edit on 30-11-2009 by marg6043]

posted on Nov, 30 2009 @ 05:18 PM

Originally posted by nikiano
"Well, if Dr. Niman wants to still push the vaccine even though it appears that it won't be effective against the D225G mutation then that's his choice. But I for one find it ridiculous to keep pushing a vaccine that has severe potential side effects when the mutations seem to be making it more and more obsolete every day."

And I for two fully agree with you.

posted on Nov, 30 2009 @ 05:24 PM

Originally posted by wayno
reply to post by Kailassa

These statements do seem somewhat oversimplified, black/white:

If the high morbidity strain spreads to your area, and you have already had a bout of a low morbidity one, you are likely to be immune, just as people who caught Spanish flu early were immune to the deadly version which came in the second wave.

However if you were vaccinated instead you would be unlikely to have any immunity to it, and would be a sitting duck.

I don't understand why this should be so. Its the same immune system reacting; whether it was activated by an actual infection or a jab, is it not?

And you accuse me of oversimplification.

Your immune system is quite complex, and is capable of fighting off the one disease in a variety of ways.
It's method of fighting something off can differ, depending on how immunity was triggered.

There are many different ways to treat a virus to make it suitable for a vaccine. There are different additives, particularly adjuvants, which influence the effect the viral matter will have on the immune system. The manufacturers don't know how long a new type of vaccine will confer immunity for until they try it.

Contagion with a whole, live, non-attenuted virus has a much broader effect on the immune system, often enabling it to retain immune memory much longer.

I've dug up some info on immunity showing the extended immunity gained by actual infection.

Mumps is a relatively innocuous viral disease, usually experienced in childhood, which causes swelling of one or both salivary glands (parotids), located just below and in front of the ears. Typical symptoms are a temperature of 100-l04 degrees, appetite loss, headache, and back pain. The gland swelling usually begins to diminish after two or three days and is gone by the sixth or seventh day. However, one gland may become affected first, and the second as much as 10-l2 days later. The infection of either side confers life-time immunity.
. . .
No one knows whether the mumps vaccination confers an immunity that lasts into the adult years.

Finally, the crucial question yet to be answered is whether vaccine-induced immunity is as effective and long lasting as immunity from the natural disease of rubella. A large proportion of children show no evidence of immunity in blood tests given only four or five years after rubella vaccination.
The significance of this is both obvious and frightening. Rubella is a non threatening disease in childhood, and it confers natural immunity to those who contract it so they will not get it again as adults. Prior to the time that doctors began giving rubella vaccinations an estimated 85 percent of adults were naturally immune to the disease.
Today, because of immunization, the vast majority of women never acquire natural immunity. If their vaccine-induced immunity wears off, they may contract rubella while they are pregnant, with resulting damage to their unborn children.

Whooping Cough

The mechanism of immunity to pertussis after natural infection or immunization is complex and not fully understood. Immunity has been shown to wane seven to 20 years after natural infection and five to 10 years after immunization with whole cell vaccines


The immunity from the vaccine actually lasts for a substantial period of time. In past years people used to be concerned that the immunity would fade but we have much better data now that supports that immunity actually can extend throughout the influenza season into the spring, and in many cases actually into the following year.

How long does immunity from influenza vaccine last?
Protection from influenza vaccine is thought to persist for a year or less because of waning antibody and because of changes in the circulating influenza virus from year to year.

In the 1918 pandemic, which killed at least 50 million people, nearly half the deaths were of people 20 to 40 years old. More than 95 percent were of people younger than 65. In comparison, 36 percent of the deaths in the 1957 pandemic were of people younger than 65, and 48 percent in the 1968 pandemic.
The 1918 pattern has led many experts to speculate that older people may have had immunity from a "Spanish-like" virus that circulated in their youth, sometime before about 1885. Something similar may be happening this time.

In our study we were looking for antibodies to the 1918 flu. This flu virus was reconstructed a number of years ago in the lab, so we were able to test to see if 90 years later we could still find antibodies. I recruited survivors, people who were born in 1915 or earlier and thus presumably survived the 1918 flu. We found that virtually all the people born in 1915 or earlier — about 90% of them — had good "titers" to the 1918 flu, which means they still had reasonably high concentrations of the antibodies in their blood, whereas among controls, people who were born in 1926 or later, it was only about 10%. That was really quite a remarkable finding.

Notice in the TIME study they were only investigating natural immunity.
i.e. immunity deriving from actually catching the disease.

I also wonder about all the hype surrounding super lethal mutations. What is the likelihood that something that bad will develop given that it has not done so, that I've heard of, in the millenia that we have existed?

Have you not read of the Spanish Flu pandemic if 1918-19 which killed between 20 million and 100 million people? Many would be healthy in the morning and die, chocking from haemorrhaging lungs, in the afternoon. I'd class that as bad.
However bird flu, which has killed 63% of its human victims, would make Spanish flu pale in comparison if genetic reassortment ver allows it to spread easily.

One strain of swine flu has now developed a mutation which allows it to cause lung haemorrhaging just like the Spanish flu and has been killing people that way.

I agree that over use of anti-virals/anti-biotics and mass immunizations increases the pressure for such mutations, but my guess is that the immune system of the majority of us will in the end be able to fight off whatever comes along -- mainly because it has always been so. That is why we, as a species, are still here. No?

It's just as logical to say that I won't die because I haven't died yet.

However an extinction-level infectious event is highly unlikely. I'm all in favour of building up our natural health and fitness, getting a good diet and lots of vitamin D, and not worrying too much.

posted on Nov, 30 2009 @ 06:31 PM
reply to post by asen_y2k

Hi Asen, glad to hear that you are ok after your travels and that things have calmed down in the Ukraine.

Hope all continues to go well there.

For a thread that deals with the Ukraine - there are a lot of distractions here. Please keep us informed on how things are going.

posted on Nov, 30 2009 @ 08:03 PM
reply to post by Kailassa

Thanks Kailassa for your well researched response. One thought that comes to me is that it seems that just as scientists know what mutation is responsible for the flu infecting the lungs more deeply, they probably have a pretty good idea what makes a virus more contagious. I wouldn't doubt that a number of them are working on the Avian flu right now in that regard.

I guess I was thinking more of a near extinction event as qualifying for super bug status than a 1918 type flu, as bad as that was.

On the plus side we have a somewhat better understanding of how the flu and disease works now than in 1918 -- I qualified that in acknowledgment of all the controversy here on this thread
-- and hopefully, we might be better at controlling the spread.

Maybe that is just wishful thinking on my part. I seem to vacillate between thinking its hopeless because of all the scientific meddling and optimism because I am doing my best to avoid the doctors and scientists and stick with the natural approach. I just don't know.

posted on Nov, 30 2009 @ 08:45 PM

Pregnancy as a risk factor

Pregnancy is today looked upon as another risk factor for “Swine Flu”, either inside the Ukraine or elsewhere, but pregnancy has, for decades, been said to “light-up” preexisting tubercular infection in a woman.(1)

For some reason pregnancy, especially late pregnancy, and child bearing itself, dangerously reanimates any form of tuberculosis in a woman’s body. Thus in the first half of the twentieth century, the method of choice was early termination of pregnancy in the tuberculous mother.(2) Menstruation itself has a similar deleterious effect in exacerbating any focus of TB.

The numbers in front of Johns Hopkins pathologist Arnold Rich were incredible.(3)

In a disease that today, according to the World Health Organization, consistently kills more women of childbearing age than any other, Rich noticed, studying the problem, that the age at which female tuberculosis mortality began to rise above male mortality coincided with the average age of the onset of female menstruation. But the age at which it really surpassed that of males coincided with the period during which over two-thirds of all pregnancies occurred. In 1940, Rich calculated, there where 2,336,604 live births registered in the United States. In that year 71.5 per cent of all births were produced by woman between 15 and 30 years of age. Adjusting these stats downwards for those woman that had more than one birth, and at the same time adjusting for still births, abortions or miscarriages, Rich conservatively estimated that a little over 2 million woman between 18-30 were pregnant in 1940. And since the total US population for woman of this age was approximately 17,700,000, it followed that 1 out of every 8 women in the United States was pregnant in this age range and 1 in 10 bore living children. This, Rich concluded, produced a pool of 200,000 opportunities towards the reanimation of tuberculosis, if it previously existed, with its drastically increased female mortality rates.

In such a reanimation of latent tuberculosis, it was also striking that TB meningitis, infrequent in adults, but frequent in infants and toddlers, seemed to noticeably increase in child-bearing women from the reactivation of old deposits of cerebral tuberculosis. (4)

1. Norris C.C. Gynecological and Obstetrical Tuberculosis D. Appleton and Company, New York 1921
2. Kobrinsky S Preganancy and Tuberculosis Canad. M.A.J. Nov. 1948 vol. 59; 462-4
3. Rich AR The Pathogenesis of Tuberculosis Chas C Thomas Publsh. Springfield Illinois, 1946
4. Whitney JS Facts and Figures About Tuberculosis Natl. Tuberc. Assn 1931

[edit on 30-11-2009 by calohan]


MOD NOTE: Posting work written by others

[edit on Sun Dec 6 2009 by DontTreadOnMe]

posted on Nov, 30 2009 @ 08:47 PM
reply to post by wayno

There's a Buddhist meditation: "I shall surely die tonight."

Keeping that in mind means enjoying everything to the max, doing the things you really believe are worthwhile and putting your heart into whatever you take on.

No-one knows what will happen tomorrow. An invisible meteorite might explode the Earth, you might have a lead duck fall on your head, you might make the most of a new scientific discovery and live to be 10,000.

All that really matters is now; making sure that you are living now in a way you will never regret.

I spent 4 hours at a Buddist temple practicing that meditation, and when I got home an angry ex with a black-belt in karate was waiting to kill me. All I could think as he kept punching my remarkably thick skull was: "I shall surely die tonight."

posted on Nov, 30 2009 @ 08:54 PM
Asen, welcome back to Ukraine and this thread. Its been very busy in your absence. I was wondering if you could make a comment from your personal observation there, and possibly with your colleagues and teachers at school, about the TB issue. Is it something as rampant as we have been hearing? Is it discussed at all or was it buried in the flu crisis?

I found your comment that everything in Lviv has nearly returned "to normal" intriguing. We here in the rest of the world are still trying to figure out if we have a crisis we should be worried about or not. There is so much disagreement about.

Thanks in advance.

posted on Dec, 1 2009 @ 02:05 AM
reply to post by seattletruth

You are absolutely correct
Now emerging from the Ukraine (after Dr. Moshe warned of a planned bio-weapon release in that country, causing him to be tazed, gassed and carted off the a mental institution) is a strain, which carries a much more lethal gene directly from the 1918 influenza. This gene, D225G, is associated with DAH (diffuse alveolar hemorrhage) and appears to be much more lethal than the previous versions of H1N1, as it causes infection deep within the lung tissue and has a greater propensity to trigger cytokine storm.

Mill Hill has recently announced that the influenza vaccine is a low reactor with the new and more virulent D225G strain, which means that the current H1N1 vaccine will not adequately protect from this more lethal strain.

This creates two problems. One problem is that all of the vaccinated people have now given a selective advantage to the more lethal D225G strain, for which there is no current significant vaccine protection. Just as the current H1N1 has replaced H3N2 as the dominant strain, the new mutation with the D225G now has the selective advantage to become the dominant strain, and the much-touted vaccine will not offer any significant protection from the more lethal D225G strain.

The other problem is something known as original antigenic sin. In simple terms, when a person has been vaccinated against one strain of influenza, and a closely related strain that the vaccine will not cover appears, the immune response when exposed to the second strain will be derailed. To put it bluntly, the vaccination will make people more susceptible to the more deadly D225G strain, as the immune system produces a greater antibody response to the strain of the vaccination, and not the new D225G infection. Since the new D225G infection is the more lethal of the two the vaccine will hinder the immune system in mounting a response to it, while instead mounting a useless response to the vaccination strain.

If TPTB didn’t want the populations vaccinated, they would not have produced the vaccines, nor would the media have hounded people to become vaccinated, nor would medical organizations have been pushed to encourage the vaccinations. The vaccine clearly is advantageous to the decreased population agenda of TPTB.

Now you possibly know why this has received no media coverage. Good luck to us all, we will need it.

The above is not intended as medical advice, and just represents my personal opinion and interpretation of recent news events.

posted on Dec, 1 2009 @ 08:44 AM
Hi everyone, just came back from our 1st hospital lesson after the reopening of the universities. Noticed that the hospitals were more crowded than before. And we were also informed that new rule has been imposed banning medical students from interacting with patients because the epidemic situation in Ukraine is not yet normal.

posted on Dec, 1 2009 @ 09:08 AM

Originally posted by asen_y2k
Hi everyone, just came back from our 1st hospital lesson after the reopening of the universities. Noticed that the hospitals were more crowded than before. And we were also informed that new rule has been imposed banning medical students from interacting with patients because the epidemic situation in Ukraine is not yet normal.

Thanks for the update, Asen! Stay well.

posted on Dec, 1 2009 @ 01:27 PM
reply to post by ofthepeople

I agree, but it's really too soon to make definative statements about what exactly happen to the virus as a result of the vaccine, etc. It is, however, good to know as many theories as we can so we can make our own personal choices.

Thanks mucho for that CIDRAP link, CIDRAP is one of the only medical institutions that I almost trust: They have a history of bucking the veil of secrecy, and letting the public know the truth, for better or for worse.
In 2008 they were the only institution to make a press release regarding the FACT that there was a vaccine mismatch for the seasonal flu.

In return for telling the public the truth, they were blasted by colleages and public health officials, because in their eyes the public is too stupid to handle the truth.

Given the complexity of the situation, some public health officials would prefer not to talk about mismatches and sub-optimal vaccine efficacy at all. Dr. Michael Osterholm is director of the Center for Infectious Diseases Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota. CIDRAP, as it is better known, runs an infectious diseases news operation; its writers were among the first to report on the vaccine mismatch this year. "I actually received a fair number of negative e-mails from colleagues and public health officials for the articles that we first published in CIDRAP on the lack of protection from this year's vaccine," Osterholm acknowledges. "All we did is just told the truth. We just said what was happening."

BTW, for a while now I've been spouting off the theory that this is actually a multi-step plan, a "binary weapon", in which the adjuvants in the vaccine will actually make people more susceptible to the virus that comes along next, whether that's a receptor binding domain change that that makes the virus a low reactor, or a reassortment combination with the bird flu.. Who knows. I have a video detailing my theory here:

posted on Dec, 1 2009 @ 05:51 PM
reply to post by asen_y2k

Glad to hear you made, sorry to hear things have not calmed down.

Be well and stay in touch.

posted on Dec, 1 2009 @ 10:05 PM
Clearly, WHO had issued its initial warning towards the Ukraine over a year ago:

Drug-resistant TB seen at record levels globally

Tue Feb 26, 2008 7:26pm GMT
By Will Dunham

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Cases of tuberculosis that defy existing drugs are being recorded globally at the highest rates ever seen, with parts of the former Soviet Union especially vulnerable, the World Health Organization said on Tuesday.

In a report based on data from 81 countries, the WHO estimated nearly half a million people a year worldwide become infected with a form of TB resistant to two or more of the primary drugs used to treat it. That number accounts for about 5 percent of the 9 million new TB cases annually.

Extensively drug-resistant TB, the form that is hardest to treat, was seen in 45 countries and may be present in others because only extremely limited data was available from Africa, the U.N. health agency said.


MOD NOTE: Posting work written by others

[edit on Sun Dec 6 2009 by DontTreadOnMe]

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