What is Astral Travel

reply to post by bsbray11

It's really nothing odd. It's called "arrogance" and the whole "scientific community" suffers from it time and again. There was an article recently about a man who regrew a finger, even though that isn't "supposed" to happen either. Do you remember, you are reading new scientific literature? Not something that is already decades old, etc? Well, except for Jung's work, which is already decades old.

So *every single* scientist who is not Tiller or someone else considered a crackpot are just being arrogant to these visionaries works? *Every single* scientist is just concocting some grand conspiracy to keep the truth from us on how we can effect matter mentally without any organ shown to be capable of projecting energy to manipulate? *Every single* scientist if just being arrogant but these visionaries *must* be right because they alone are being "fought" against and ridiculed and yet they can't even at least show any mechanism for their theory, they can't show at least some field of force emanating from the human body that is capable of molding and shaping itself in different patterns capable of effecting matter at a great distance?

Yes, I suppose that would suffice for you. You don't even have to actually look at his data for this to suffice, either. Amazing. You are a genius, aren't you?

I had looked at the data for the other man claiming similar claims, but the data was skewed and wrong. Seeing as how the claims are so close together and how neither claim is capable of showing a new human organ capable of projecting energy in such a way to affect something outside of the skull without the use of an appendage, it only takes the slightest smidgen of common sense to see this is pure garbage.

Here is the arrogance coming into play again. Since we never proved this stuff scientifically before, there is no use trying now, because it obviously must be false. Or else we would already know it! Duh! Case closed.

Oh please, stop stomping your feet and screaming this is to middle Earth, it's embarrassing. You know damned well that of the five senses that it's proven we have five sensory organs. This applies across all species on this planet, so applying our heads here with a little bit of logic it is safe to assume that any sense would require an organ in which to perceive it and transmit it to the brain.

Now, unless these people want to rewrite physics and show a particle capable of bypassing the need for a sensory organ and one in which can pass through the skull unaffected and yet somehow fiddle around with the brain but only in certain areas that science currently understands are input regions for the sensory organs, then this is truly all BS.

The true amount of arrogance I see here is the utter requirement that our world must be like that of middle Earth by some.

You know, I think we might as well not pay scientists to do any research anymore. It's clear to me from your logic, that everything worth knowing about life and the human body, and all the energies present in the universe, is already understood. Don't you think we really ought to stop funding all these silly research projects and things and just admit we already know everything? MIT should cut Dr. Tiller off immediately! We don't need to look at his data to know it's wrong!

Well then it's clear to me that you don't understand logic in the slightest sense of the word. Obviously we don't know everything, but at the same time these so called visionaries do *need* to show their work. They need to explain how the human brain is capable of generating fields of force capable of effecting matter outside of the skull and they need to show evidence for that force and for the brains capability to generate such a tremendous force. Running around claiming that 'intentions' can be stored in crystal HURAH! Does not get someone regarded as being serious, *SHOWING IT* does.

Originally posted by sirnex
So *every single* scientist who is not Tiller or someone else considered a crackpot are just being arrogant to these visionaries works?

Basically, yes. You haven't even read any of his freaking work and you are already judging it as if you know better. Please.

I had looked at the data for the other man claiming similar claims

Oh, ok. That makes everything different then.

Oh please, stop stomping your feet and screaming this is to middle Earth, it's embarrassing.

You're the one who should be embarrassed of yourself. If we were in Copernicus' times right now, and you based your argument on the same "logic," you would be telling me that the Sun revolves around the Earth. Simply because that's what most experts believed. There you go. That is arrogance. And stupidity -- did I mention that too? Ignorance..... All those people were the worst kind of complete fools and idiots: zealous ones. Whole generations of biased, arrogant, stupid people had to die off before anyone could see the validity of Copernicus' claims. Times have really changed.

Well then it's clear to me that you don't understand logic in the slightest sense of the word.

Now the personal attacks.


You are just a troll. I am done talking to you. Seriously, you haven't read either of the things I am talking about and you want to argue with me about them and tell me they're wrong, as if you would know a damned thing about them. I don't know what world you live in but on Earth it usually does a little good to know something about what you're talking about before you set off on a campaign to debunk it, unless you just LOVE being stupid. I'm an electrical engineering student. I KNOW what logic, and even math and science are. Vectors. Free-body diagrams. I can analyze complex inductive/capacitive AC circuits, timers, etc. And I have seen the data from this tenured MIT professor, and the data is good. Believe what you want, genius, you're all the smarter for it. After all, the scientific method is an informed democracy. You are an excellent example of that yourself.

[edit on 23-10-2009 by bsbray11]

reply to post by bsbray11

Basically, yes. You haven't even read any of his freaking work and you are already judging it as if you know better. Please.

I have been trying to find the time to review his work, but haven't had much time yet to do so. Regardless of that point, what little information I have gleaned thus far does indeed to be more about pseudo-science than actual science.

You're the one who should be embarrassed of yourself. If we were in Copernicus' times right now, and you based your argument on the same "logic," you would be telling me that the Sun revolves around the Earth. Simply because that's what most experts believed. There you go. That is arrogance. And stupidity -- did I mention that too? Ignorance.....

Really, I don't know what I personally would have thought in that era, but I do know he was neither the first in history to suggest a heliocentric solar system. I also am of the understanding that an Earth centered view was more born out of arrogant thinking that man had a central special place in the universe rather than any actual real scientific observation.

I am also under the belief that it is inherently more arrogant to exclaim some process that essentially defies all knowledge as being existent without actually showing that it exists. As I am sure I've mentioned before either in this thread or in others, when someone is going to claim something as existing, they need to show it exists. In the case for some latent ability for the human brain to manipulate matter outside of the skull without any organ or appendage to do so simply defies everything known to man, right down to physics and biology mostly. Either physics and biology is wrong and this guy is right, or more appropriately, this guy is wrong and physics and biology is correct and demonstratively shown as correct due to the advances we now enjoy from these fields of science. What has Tiller given us? Magic electronic circuits? Cool!

Now the personal attacks.

Only if your reading the argument out of context.

You are just a troll.

You may view me as such, but from my point of view it appears your only stating that because you demand I throw out logic and deductive reasoning and instead accept Tiller as a visionary.

I am done talking to you. Seriously, you haven't read either of the things I am talking about and you want to argue with me about them and tell me they're wrong, as if you would know a damned thing about them.

I have read everything you've posted, in fact I went so far as to reply to everything you've posted. From your descriptions of the thing's we're discussing I can get a decent picture of what the idea is stating. Further, everything I have been stating has been more or less as a reply direct to a point you yourself had made, I find no need to bring in the works of others to argue against your opinions of their validity.

I don't know what world you live in but on Earth it usually does a little good to know something about what you're talking about before you set off on a campaign to debunk it, unless you just LOVE being stupid.

What an arrogant claim, assuming I know nothing about what I'm talking about. What is truly stupid here is defying everything known in physics and biology despite the evidence and advances for and from by accepting what Tiller is stating which is something eerily similar to another persons work who was shown to be a flat out fraud.

I'm an electrical engineering student. I KNOW what logic, and even math and science are. Vectors. Free-body diagrams. I can analyze complex inductive/capacitive AC circuits, timers, etc. And I have seen the data from this tenured MIT professor, and the data is good. Believe what you want, genius, you're all the smarter for it.

Good for you, but please understand that the human body is a biochemical system derived from organic compounds that requires sensory organs and manipulative appendages to have any effect on the world at large. If the human species were capable of this logic defying act, then it would stand to reason that most if not all of life would be equally capable to a varying degree. Seeing as how the world is not in some chaotic battle of mental wit amongst the species of our planet, it further stands to reason that the human species is the most arrogant screwed up retarded dimwitted moronic species on this planet. Just to make sure we're at an understanding, that was not a personal attack on you but a generalized description of our oh so wonderful species with people who just love eating up anything slightly mystical or that slightly gives them reason to believe they are oh so special. Just so we're clear.

Sirnex, you are right. What was I thinking?

We already know everything there is to know about our bodies, and the energies our body operates on. I challenge anyone to produce a single new insight about our bodies that does not defy conventional science. It simply cannot be done.

If anyone discovers anything new about biology, it must conform with what we already know. Or else it is obviously mistaken. That awareness and consciousness have energies associated with them in our bodies MUST be complete magical, fairy-tale fantasy. I don't know why I didn't realize this sooner. I appreciate you leading me to this great insight, all without even having to see Dr. Tiller's data. I said it before sarcastically, but now I really mean it: you are a genius. One of the most astute members of this entire forum, I would say.

Thanks again!

reply to post by bsbray11


How are you figuring in a smart*ass reply as making your point of view anymore valid? You would rather be a smart*ass than argue against the point and yet somehow I am supposed to bow down to your logical conclusion that thousands of scientist *must* be inherently wrong because you view Tiller as a visionary. You are just simply amazing, a real piece of human ingenuity. Without lines of thinking such as this, our world would indeed seem more boring.

When and if I get the time to review Tillers work, I will take the chance. As it stands right now I simply don't have the time for personal reasons. If you wish to point out a specific mechanism explained by Tiller in how the human brain is capable of manipulating matter, then by all means do so. If you can't or don't want to show a mechanism, then my argument still stands.

Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by bsbray11

 

How are you figuring in a smart*ass reply as making your point of view anymore valid?

The words I say have absolutely no bearing on the validity of what they represent. So I am not worried about what I say.

I already told you, you are right. Everything you say is spot-on. I don't know how anyone could disagree with you.

Nothing is true until proven. End of story. That is the truth that makes the world go 'round. So you don't really even need to read Tiller, obviously, and you were perfectly capable of coming to a decision about him before reading his work, which only validates what we are both saying: he hasn't proven anything to you so he is obviously a fraud.

I don't know why you think I'm being facetious, after all, this is what you are saying.



Oh wait -- I get it. You just need someone to argue with. Well do you want me to pretend to believe in this magical fantasy unicorn stuff about energies related to consciousness and awareness? Because we have already concluded that it doesn't hold water because we would have already known it by now if it were true. You had me convinced, now you say I'm being facetious. You have me confused.

[edit on 23-10-2009 by bsbray11]

reply to post by bsbray11


That is not what I am saying and you damn well know that, but if you truly think that is what I am saying then you are either taking what I've said out of context or purposefully disregarded thing's I have said. In which I should point out yet again, I do not have the time right now to personally review Tillers work, but my argument is based upon the impressions of his work I have received from yourself and the similarity of the work of someone else. Instead of positing a viable mechanism out right, you instead make another smart*ss remark. Nor have you shown any credibility in light of thousands of scientists being wrong compared to someone who hold as a visionary. As if somehow these thousands upon thousands of scientists are just all somehow intricately involved in some master conspiracy against the ilks of Tiller.

Now, I am personally expecting either no response or another smart*ss response as you've yet to show any initiative in shedding light of how thousands of scientists are inherently wrong compared to your visionary.

reply to post by sirnex


My visionary? Thousands of people are wrong? No, no, I already told you, you won me over, Tiller is wrong and all these unnamed thousands know his work better than he does. I'm really very surprised that MIT would pay such a man a salary, but then again, MIT is amongst one of the poorest, most disrespected institutions in this country, so it is little surprise I suppose.

I take back what I said earlier about you needing to read his work. I advise you stay clear away from it. He probably fabricated all his data anyway. I'm not sure why you even have any interest in it whatsoever? You KNOW he is wrong.



Btw -- there really is no such thing as a "visionary." The idea that someone can see something that no one else sees, is a blatant fallacy contradicting the most basic tenets of science. Today these people are simply recognized as "fools." "Visionary" is an archaic term from the Middle Ages, or the Romantic 1800's at best.

[edit on 23-10-2009 by bsbray11]

bsbray11, just let it go

He obviously doesn't think astral projection is real and nothing you or anyone else says is gonna change it. You tried to wake him up - it didn't work - sucks for him.
Maybe when he gets older or dies he will realise the true human nature.

reply to post by bsbray11

Btw -- there really is no such thing as a "visionary." The idea that someone can see something that no one else sees, is a blatant fallacy contradicting the most basic tenets of science. Today these people are simply recognized as "fools." "Visionary" is an archaic term from the Middle Ages, or the Romantic 1800's at best.

Wow, talk about the pot calling the kettle black! Or was this just another instance of sarcasm?

Originally posted by sirnex
Wow, talk about the pot calling the kettle black! Or was this just another instance of sarcasm?

You tell me! Seriously, that makes this whole conversation worth it.


Moraz, the only people it "sucks" for are the people who believe in magic fantasy unicorns.

For me, Astral travel is something I don't understand but I do have a theory.

I am trying to find a way to ask a question but not give any hints on what the answer is, excuse me if it sounds like a riddle. If you have astral traveled, you will know what I am asking. When I astral travel on purpose, there is always this constant thing. My questions are:

When does this happen to you and what is it, for you?

If anyone answers then I will disclose mine, when it happens, my theory and experiences. I don't want to waste my time writing if there is no one to benefit from it in here.

reply to post by bsbray11


I taking the time to review
http...://tillerfoundation.com/White%20Paper%20IV.pdf" target="_blank" class="postlink">LINK
,but just from an initial reaction to the paper, I strongly dislike how Tiller is stating as matter of factually that there is a soul and that he alone appears to understand the full extent of human consciousness.

For instance, his definition of consciousness having a unique quality of nature that is ultimately convertible to energy just doesn't sit well with me. What 'kind' of energy is this and from your experience in his work does he explain at all what this energy is how it is produced by the human body or brain and how it is transmitted and received by the human body or brain?

[EDIT TO ADD]

I'm having trouble getting the link to show, the white paper is titled: IV - It Is Time for a Consciousness-Inclusive Science

[edit on 23-10-2009 by sirnex]

reply to post by sirnex


Sirnex, please stop responding to me as if I believe all this nonsense you are posting about. I don't know what the word "soul" means, have never heard it in my life, and I would appreciate it if you keep your nonsense religious mythic fantasies to yourself.

reply to post by bsbray11


You know what, your so full of BS I can smell it coming off my monitor! I actually took the time to review a paper, listed two concepts as they appeared in the paper and now you ridiculously exclaim to not know what I'm talking about. Get bent, seriously. I still haven't seen any viable mechanism for the human brain to conduct anything remotely possible from what you or Tiller is stating. Perhaps it's in another paper, I don't know nor do I have the time to go through every singe paper available on that website right now. Like I said, if you know of the mechanism or which paper it is in I will take the time to read it and discuss it.

If your refusal to state a mechanism or show where that mechanism is to be found is from lack of a mechanism, then my earlier arguments still stand and you can prance around being a smart*ss all you want, if you like looking childish and pathetic in your argument of course. But, hey, that's your choice and your choice alone to make. I took the time to find validation in what you were saying about Tiller and I failed to find this elusive mechanism or solution.

Originally posted by sirnex
You know what, your so full of BS I can smell it coming off my monitor!

Prove that fecal matter is emitting from my posts, and how it could have collected on the outside of your computer monitor.

I still haven't seen any viable mechanism for the human brain to conduct anything remotely possible from what you or Tiller is stating.

And because you aren't satisfied, that's proof that you're right. Remember? We covered this already. From there, you are free to call everyone a fraud, or any other name you feel like, on your whim. Because you already know you are right. Like I said, we have already covered all of this. I know where it goes.

Like I said, if you know of the mechanism or which paper it is in I will take the time to read it and discuss it.

He actually just offered experimental data that proved other energies were present in the body that direct and influence EM fields and currents in and around the body. Biofeedback is already well-established science I was taught in high school in AP psychology classes. You learn to draw awareness to a certain part of your body, and lo and behold, small EM currents are generated there that can stimulate cell reparation among other things. People have also learned how to control body temperatures and things of that nature. Tiller's work was along these same lines, finding the source of the EM generation as it pertains to human intent and awareness. I guess you just need to do more homework.

If your refusal to state a mechanism or show where that mechanism is to be found is from lack of a mechanism, then my earlier arguments still stand

They still stand anyway. If you don't know something, then it doesn't exist. If you can't prove something, then it doesn't exist. If you can't find the evidence for something, then it doesn't exist. It's that simple. You are always right. All of you logic so far has been spot-on and there are no holes in it whatsoever. No room for error at all. Seriously. How many times do we have to cover this?

you can prance around being a smart*ss all you want, if you like looking childish and pathetic

You're the one who looks childish to all the people here who already know this kind of stuff and aren't babbling on and on about evidence and proof and this and that like the doubting Thomas you are, like a babe seeking a teat, when you don't even realize what you are missing out on. If you think I come here just to cater to you and spoon feed you, then you really got mixed up somewhere.

Every time I try to explain anything about this stuff to you, you automatically take the "debunker" route and try to dismiss it all out of hand. That is why I have no interest trying to show you anything. It's not my responsibility to show you anything. When you die, you will have to figure it out for yourself. I'm willing to wait for that, and apparently so are you, so let's just forget about it. Death is inevitable anyway so there is no use arguing about it. You already know you are right. I am telling you that you are right. YOU ARE RIGHT!!! There is no such thing as astral projection, we just make it all up in our heads and it's meaningless, a meaningless experience with no value in it whatsoever. Seriously dude, you are right, there is nothing else for you to gain here arguing with me. Move along, move along. I'm just going to stop responding. I have nothing more to say, especially to someone who thinks they already know it all, and trust me, you do.

[edit on 24-10-2009 by bsbray11]

reply to post by bsbray11

And because you aren't satisfied, that's proof that you're right. Remember? We covered this already. From there, you are free to call everyone a fraud, or any other name you feel like, on your whim. Because you already know you are right. Like I said, we have already covered all of this. I know where it goes.

Look Ma' I be a smart*ss agin! Do you not like reading or something? Let's try this again:

I looked through one paper, taking my time to find a postulated mechanism for this supposed feat that you have described to me and i failed to find that mechanism. I have also asked on more than one occasion if you knew in which paper this mechanism can be found so that I may learn more about it. Instead I am being met with nothing more than childish smart*ss remarks and purposeful stupidity. I am trying to show some effort here to see your side of the argument, so what is your problem?

He actually just offered experimental data that proved other energies were present in the body that direct and influence EM fields and currents in and around the body. Biofeedback is already well-established science I was taught in high school in AP psychology classes. You learn to draw awareness to a certain part of your body, and lo and behold, small EM currents are generated there that can stimulate cell reparation among other things. People have also learned how to control body temperatures and things of that nature. Tiller's work was along these same lines, finding the source of the EM generation as it pertains to human intent and awareness. I guess you just need to do more homework.

Define 'energies that direct and influence EM fields and currents in and around the body' for me. This is something I can't define for myself as I don't understand what definition of energy is being used here. Bio-feedback is a pretty neat stress reduction toy, but I wouldn't personally place any weird and odd meanings behind it just yet. I know bio-feedback is used to treat a variety of stress related illnesses and disorders, beyond that it's useless as far as I know.

They still stand anyway. If you don't know something, then it doesn't exist. If you can't prove something, then it doesn't exist. If you can't find the evidence for something, then it doesn't exist. It's that simple. You are always right. All of you logic so far has been spot-on and there are no holes in it whatsoever. No room for error at all. Seriously. How many times do we have to cover this?

Wow, missed the logic in that one! Since when is the burden of proof here upon me? I'm calling *your* claim into question. I fail to see how I somehow need to prove what you yourself claim.

You're the one who looks childish to all the people here who already know this kind of stuff and aren't babbling on and on about evidence and proof and this and that like the doubting Thomas you are, like a babe seeking a teat, when you don't even realize what you are missing out on. If you think I come here just to cater to you and spoon feed you, then you really got mixed up somewhere.

Wow again, sounds like mister grumpy bear needs a nappy nap! I make one simple request multiple times in an effort to try and understand what this mechanism is and how it works and you run off and soil your diaper and start throwing a temper tantrum.

Every time I try to explain anything about this stuff to you, you automatically take the "debunker" route and try to dismiss it all out of hand.

Explain what?! I'm asking for the damn mechanism involved that allows the brain to conduct this amazing feat your claiming it's capable of. I've even taken the time to read a paper in attempt to find it without avail.

That is why I have no interest trying to show you anything. It's not my responsibility to show you anything.

You not only show no interest but you haven't shown squat period. And yes, you made the claim and so the burden of proof lies on yourself, not on me. How flipping retarded is it that someone else should have to prove your claim? Are you smoking or tripping? I mean wtf dude, use it or lose it.

When you die, you will have to figure it out for yourself. I'm willing to wait for that, and apparently so are you, so let's just forget about it. Death is inevitable anyway so there is no use arguing about it. You already know you are right. I am telling you that you are right. YOU ARE RIGHT!!! There is no such thing as astral projection, we just make it all up in our heads and it's meaningless, a meaningless experience with no value in it whatsoever. Seriously dude, you are right, there is nothing else for you to gain here arguing with me. Move along, move along. I'm just going to stop responding. I have nothing more to say, especially to someone who thinks they already know it all, and trust me, you do.

What amazes me is this whole temper tantrum is based upon me asking for a mechanism for how this whole thing works. I am only going to assume now that there is no mechanism that you can point to. It's the only reason I can think of why you would start throwing these little soiled my diaper temper tantrums. Go grab some wipes and a pull-up and change yourself so you can calm down and inform me of which paper the mechanism might be in since you are more familiar with Tillers work.






[edit on 25-10-2009 by sirnex]

reply to post by sirnex


Who is throwing the tantrum again?

You keep trying to back me into a corner, and every time I tell you that you're already right, you just get annoyed and keep trying to back me into the corner. For God's sake, just accept that you are right.


Debate over. You won.




Also, in celebration of your victory, here is a nice educational video from the late Robert Monroe of the Monroe Institute:





Someone posted one of these videos before. It's 1 and 2 of 6 in a series, and the whole series is extremely educational and highly recommended for anyone actually interested in personally exploring AP.

(And those who think it's all bullocks are exempt from having to watch it, of course. Or waste any time with this nonsense at all, really.)

[edit on 25-10-2009 by bsbray11]

reply to post by sirnex


Just to play devils advocate here, isn't it possible that the mechanism is not understood? Perhaps it resides in the brain itself, a organ that we do not fully understand as of yet.

I don't think that a mechanism needs to be shown at this point, and especially not by the OP, unless of course he has a basement full of equipment. It is something that lends itself to further research.

If, hypothetically, these experiments by Tiller are legit then isn't it possible that the energy in use is something that we don't fully understand and therefore don't have the equipment to analyze?

Just my 2 cents, just because an experiment can not determine the exact cause and the mechanisms required to accomplish the result that does not mean that the experiments results are null and void. Plenty of theories and experiments have gone years, decades, even centuries before the proper equipment was available to prove them.

reply to post by XTexan

Just to play devils advocate here, isn't it possible that the mechanism is not understood? Perhaps it resides in the brain itself, a organ that we do not fully understand as of yet.

If it does actually reside in the brain, then we should be able to detect what sections of the brain get's activated and take the research from there. It just appears so coincidental and lucky for researchers such as Tiller that these so called energies just happen to be undetectable by all of science except him and his ilk.

I don't think that a mechanism needs to be shown at this point, and especially not by the OP, unless of course he has a basement full of equipment. It is something that lends itself to further research.

I'm not asking the OP to provide the evidence for a mechanism himself, instead I am asking him to provide the mechanism from Tiller since I don't have the personal time to review all of Tiller's papers and the OP claims to be familiar with all of Tiller's work and see's no fault in it.

If, hypothetically, these experiments by Tiller are legit then isn't it possible that the energy in use is something that we don't fully understand and therefore don't have the equipment to analyze?

Well then let's define the usage of energy here. As far as known to science and myself at this point in time, energy is an inherent property of matter and it is unknown to science of any novel strange forms of matter being produced during the early growing stages of a human fetus. Again, it would seem highly coincidental and fortunate for Tiller and his ilk to be the only one's in recent years out of at least let's say seventy-five years of serious research to be the only one to discover that the human brain is capable of generating strange novel forms of matter and energy that has gone undetectable by the rest of science itself.

Just my 2 cents, just because an experiment can not determine the exact cause and the mechanisms required to accomplish the result that does not mean that the experiments results are null and void. Plenty of theories and experiments have gone years, decades, even centuries before the proper equipment was available to prove them.

From everything currently known to be true and they must be valid and true to a point unless we wish to stake claim that the technological advances made from the sciences don't actually exist and are all an illusion, then whatever process is occurring should be detectable. Never once has it been proven that there is a soul or a detachment of consciousness from the human brain, but what we have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt *at least to myself* is that human consciousness is a direct effect of the human brain and is determinate on it's proper functioning. If one system of the physical brain is damaged we can see it's direct effect on human consciousness. If the two were separate, I doubt this effect would be as prominent. I doubt that *only* a slight few nutters would be the one's who claim to be capable of these physics defying feats as well. It is to my belief that more than likely what we are experiencing here is a high lucid meditative dreaming state and not a physical detachment of the human consciousness from the brain that *only* pseudo-scientists have been able to propose happens and modern science is unable to discover.