Originally posted by Cogito, Ergo Sum
I'm not really biased against any terminology, my real point is that perhaps we shouldn't necessarily believe that because we can feel emotion that this must come from some spiritual energy vortex that are called "chakras", simply because we are told so by some dogma, guru or book.

This is where you're getting caught up on your own misconceptions. There is nothing spooky, mystical, magical, gobbledy-gooky about feeling feelings in your body. The word "chakra" does not suddenly mean magical, mystical, unexplainable, unicorns, etc., etc., etc., although I can tell you are trying to interpret it that way. It is also not something I will EVER have to take on blind faith, because of this. It is VERY simple. I have paid no one my money, and I do not have a "guru."

Though I don't say they don't exist, from what little I really do know this is misconstruing what really might be happening.

I don't believe I ever tried to venture forth any magical, "airy-fairy" theory about "what really might be happening," did I? Unicorns dancing in my stomach maybe? Is that what you're expecting me to say?

Because I feel it, and because it is there in my body, that's all. I'm positive you can feel the same feelings, just the same as you are made of the same matter and energy that I am. I am not looking for superstitions; you are completely taking this subject the wrong way if you think I am trying to invent a bunch of other hocus-pocus to go with this. Something gives rise to it, but all I can say is that it is my body and it happens naturally. And it is certainly there. Fair enough?

At any rate it only clouds subjects like OBE, which a doesn't need a headful of any philosophy to experience and begin to understand.

Fair enough that chakras are not critical to OBE, but neither is structural engineering, and I hardly find that justification to neglect structural engineering. Everything has its place.

thanks for the discussion bsbray11 and I wish you the best. I must go, as my unicorns need tending to, the elves at the end of the garden told me so.......

At least we are not arguing about whether or not such a thing is even possible anymore.

I still say anyone who is skeptical should just get into meditation for themselves, and start from there.

Originally posted by sirnex
Alright, I'll entertain a 'quantum mind' theory for a minute, but unfortunately despite any quantum 'activity' taking place within the brain, it would be localized only to the brain.

In other words, that quote you gave me

Membrane potential is constantly fluctuating due to random openings and closing of ion channels and the like. Mini synaptic events also occur stochastically probably due to quantum fluctuations.

Would be totally dependent upon the physical configuration of the neurons. Meaning that whatever quantum effect going on isn't going to somehow 'detach' from the brain and fly off into some astral plane of existence. Whatever happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas.

That's fair enough, but you still don't know where Las Vegas is. You only THINK you do. Turns out Las Vegas is in New York, and vice versa, and so everywhere occupies the same physical space. Just not within physical space. (Ie, when you are physically embodied here, it never appears this way, and time always appears linear, etc.) This is an implication of string theory, and how time and space "appear" from "higher" perspectives: they are eventually all in "superposition" from the perspective of the unified field in which everything rests, including what gives rise to consciousness itself.

I never said I was proposing anything magical to you. Mysterious, sure, even to science, but not magical, and certainly nothing we would know to be impossible. On the contrary, it is very easy to validate with the time and effort. You probably interpret many/most of my words entirely differently than I do myself, but you can rest assured that I am a very logical person myself and don't jump from this idea to that on a whim. It's just very easy to fall through the gaps that my words haven't filled, because there is only so much you can say about these things. I definitely know what it is like to read something, it not make any sense to me whatsoever, and then come back later and suddenly it hits me. I was just looking at it from the wrong end. And there is no easy way to explain my perspective in full...

I did find a decent description of the mechanics going on behind the phenomena and I can state with confidence that the apparent measurement your describing is not an actual measurement of 'something' occurring in a physical sense.

Now who's sounding "new agey"?

If I was able to garner a better understanding, then I am confident you will be able to do so as well and thus I will leave that up to yourself unless you *really* find it difficult to utilize google to find the relevant information on what I mentioned.

What I find difficult is your attitude that you must be correct in your sentiments no matter what.

You have to understand what the technical stuff really means before you can see past it to the reality of the mystery they are attempting to label. There is a difference between the word "light," and this stuff that is beaming into your eyeballs this very instant.

Right... explain it.

I can't explain to you what light "really" is, that is exactly my point. Just because you know the word "light," and you know "photon," and you know "photon has 'no' mass," and it behaves such and such a way in this theoretical model.... Those are lots of big words, describing essentially very simple motions, but still no one knows what light "is." No one knows what an electron "is." Simply how they behave and certain other measurable characteristics of them. If we knew what these things "were," we would not still be investing time and money into studying them. We are always learning more.

It would be like saying I "know" you, simply because I have watched the way you move under a microscope on a daily basis. That's nothing. I can say, well, "it" usually stops moving for about a 3rd of an entire "period" (ie day). (That is when you're sleeping, btw.) And I can say, "it" moves around a bit during the other 2/3 period. And this is all demonstrable and can be proven, just so easily as you go to bed every night at a roughly comparable time. And you may go to work and those types of things also in regular intervals. And the anomalies, the times when you do different things, well, who in the hell knows how a scientist would interpret that sort of thing. But is very much the same with physics, we don't really know what we are looking at, which is why we continue to study these things. I would wager there are entire worlds "down there" that we are yet ignorant of, on the fringes of the unified field, or maybe making up the "unified field" itself. I'm not trying to say an electron is any more alive than a planet or rock, either, simply that we are only watching its motions and other measurable behaviors (with our current tools), and trying to determine what something "is" based on that. The whole way of going about this leaves TONS of possibilities open and there is no reason to accept these simple motions and words as the "purpose" of the electron, or to say these things are definitely what an electron "is," any more than you "are" your movements on a day-to-day basis.

All you have to do is admit we may be onto something. And you might even tell us that you'll do some personal investigation into it yourself! Are you too afraid to do that?

You assume I haven't attempted anything before. Shame on you. Quiet the contrary actually and from my personal experience and cursory look into what I thought was occurring, I discovered it's all BS.

Well then what you discovered was quite different from what I discovered, and one of us must have reached a premature conclusion.

[edit on 18-10-2009 by bsbray11]

Originally posted by sirnex
Granted the theory does state that, what the theory does not state is that consciousness within that field can 'detach' and fly about at will in such a manner as astral travel.

Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever seen any scientific model that explains what consciousness specifically arises from in the first place; have you?

I read all the stuff about Astral Travel and I don't really have any more to say that I haven't said in the many other threads in the past (although I thought the OP's initial way of describing it was fresh and interesting).

However, about the Vatican vaults:

i always wondered though that if you could astral travel there(since that's probably the only way to see anything in there, unless they do accept left eyes), if there were psychics who worked within that would be able to percieve and catch or harm you.

I don't think they'd need anyone to guard anything. Assuming all the books there are closed, how'd you read it? By staring at the cover? Even if you could somehow preceive inside it'd likely be in Aramaic or some other ancient language that few can read - the chances of someone being able to AP and read those sorts of languages are probably statistically very low.

[edit on 19-10-2009 by Nova]

Originally posted by Nova
I read all the stuff about Astral Travel and I don't really have any more to say that I haven't said in the many other threads in the past (although I thought the OP's initial way of describing it was fresh and interesting).

However, about the Vatican vaults:

i always wondered though that if you could astral travel there(since that's probably the only way to see anything in there, unless they do accept left eyes), if there were psychics who worked within that would be able to percieve and catch or harm you.

I don't think they'd need anyone to guard anything. Assuming all the books there are closed, how'd you read it? By staring at the cover? Even if you could somehow preceive inside it'd likely be in Aramaic or some other ancient language that few can read - the chances of someone being able to AP and read those sorts of languages are probably statistically very low.

[edit on 19-10-2009 by Nova]

Besides, that's what the Akashic Records are for...
it's basically an Astral Library of the infinite, but it can appear/look differently for each individual. Anything that did happen or will happen is there, anything and everything is already recorded there.

Originally posted by Lister87
My main problem with things such as astral travel, and near death experiences, are that, you have to take peoples word for it, there is no proof.

Even as the poster above has written, someone 'astral travels' to a place they haven't been before, then goes back in the living world, and finds the same things they wrote down in the astral travel journey..

But again, we have to take their word for it. There isn't a way of documenting/recording it at all, sadly.

It's a very interesting idea, but to me, it's more of a way of controlling the brain during sleep.

-_-;; As my above post has described there is a way... and you could also do this type of experiment in a controlled environment but you would still have to take their word for it, i mean how do you know it wasn't faked? Thus is why you need to find out for yourself.

EDIT: I also wonder if TPTB know the connection between dreaming and astral projecting and is thus why I have been taught in my science book that you can't feel anything in a dream.... lol which is complete BS

[edit on 21-10-2009 by 4stral4pprentice]

Originally posted by sirnex

Yes, in fact what is "common sense" to you is still a mystery to science. Look up "qualia."

I'm going to go ahead and say I am a 'qualophobe'. The whole concept appears to be just over thinking and applying 'something more' to perception that doesn't appear to actually exist. I'm not sure how to put my own ideas down on it, but it just appears wrong and silly.

Fine. I am perfectly willing to agree to disagree on this.

Take care of yourself.



Btw, Carl Jung's work and Bill Tiller's work are both out there for you to read, a lot of it/most of it online for free. In your mentality you would probably read them and force yourself into the same conclusion though. But for anyone interested, they're there and will remain, among other similar works not mentioned here.

[edit on 21-10-2009 by bsbray11]

Originally posted by sirnex
As for Tiller himself, I find it odd that only he was able to be a visionary and discover an ability to manipulate matter without the use of limbs while the rest of science itself remains wholly ignorant of such an amazing feat.

It's really nothing odd. It's called "arrogance" and the whole "scientific community" suffers from it time and again. There was an article recently about a man who regrew a finger, even though that isn't "supposed" to happen either. Do you remember, you are reading new scientific literature? Not something that is already decades old, etc? Well, except for Jung's work, which is already decades old.

I did notice on the website something about intentions being able to change the PH levels of water. That immediately reminded me of some oriental man, I forget his name, who made a similar claim about emotions being able to effect snowflake formation. He too claimed to be a visionary, but it turns out he was a fake. Suffice it to say, I would imagine Tiller is a fake as well.

Yes, I suppose that would suffice for you. You don't even have to actually look at his data for this to suffice, either. Amazing. You are a genius, aren't you?

Let's put it this way, we have five senses and all five senses require their own individual sensory organs to function. Through these organs we are able to perceive the world around us, to determine where we are in relation to our surroundings and to protect ourselves from things that may be harmful to our survival. Beyond those five senses we also possess four appendages that are able to move our selves and manipulate our environment. Never has it been recorded that we are able to perceive or manipulate without some form of organ or appendage.

Here is the arrogance coming into play again. Since we never proved this stuff scientifically before, there is no use trying now, because it obviously must be false. Or else we would already know it! Duh! Case closed.

Yet, some people make these wild claims

"Wild claims." Again, same thing.


You know, I think we might as well not pay scientists to do any research anymore. It's clear to me from your logic, that everything worth knowing about life and the human body, and all the energies present in the universe, is already understood. Don't you think we really ought to stop funding all these silly research projects and things and just admit we already know everything? MIT should cut Dr. Tiller off immediately! We don't need to look at his data to know it's wrong!

[edit on 22-10-2009 by bsbray11]