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What is Astral Travel

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posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 01:30 AM
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reply to post by bsbray11
 


Fair enough bsbray11, thank you for your honesty and I won't bother you much longer. Though I didn't really ask if you had experienced inner feelings or held a diamond, I was more direct and specific about your experience with so called "chakras" as pertaining to your psychology. I'm not really biased against any terminology, my real point is that perhaps we shouldn't necessarily believe that because we can feel emotion that this must come from some spiritual energy vortex that are called "chakras", simply because we are told so by some dogma, guru or book. Unless we really do know this of course. This is a problem in the "new age" movement as I know it to be. Though I don't say they don't exist, from what little I really do know this is misconstruing what really might be happening. At any rate it only clouds subjects like OBE, which a doesn't need a headful of any philosophy to experience and begin to understand.




posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 01:58 AM
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Originally posted by Cogito, Ergo Sum
I'm not really biased against any terminology, my real point is that perhaps we shouldn't necessarily believe that because we can feel emotion that this must come from some spiritual energy vortex that are called "chakras", simply because we are told so by some dogma, guru or book.


This is where you're getting caught up on your own misconceptions. There is nothing spooky, mystical, magical, gobbledy-gooky about feeling feelings in your body. The word "chakra" does not suddenly mean magical, mystical, unexplainable, unicorns, etc., etc., etc., although I can tell you are trying to interpret it that way. It is also not something I will EVER have to take on blind faith, because of this. It is VERY simple. I have paid no one my money, and I do not have a "guru."


Though I don't say they don't exist, from what little I really do know this is misconstruing what really might be happening.


I don't believe I ever tried to venture forth any magical, "airy-fairy" theory about "what really might be happening," did I? Unicorns dancing in my stomach maybe? Is that what you're expecting me to say?


Because I feel it, and because it is there in my body, that's all. I'm positive you can feel the same feelings, just the same as you are made of the same matter and energy that I am. I am not looking for superstitions; you are completely taking this subject the wrong way if you think I am trying to invent a bunch of other hocus-pocus to go with this. Something gives rise to it, but all I can say is that it is my body and it happens naturally. And it is certainly there. Fair enough?


At any rate it only clouds subjects like OBE, which a doesn't need a headful of any philosophy to experience and begin to understand.


Fair enough that chakras are not critical to OBE, but neither is structural engineering, and I hardly find that justification to neglect structural engineering. Everything has its place.



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 02:17 AM
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thanks for the discussion bsbray11 and I wish you the best. I must go, as my unicorns need tending to, the elves at the end of the garden told me so.......



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 06:02 PM
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Hello mate, nice thread
I'll finish reading it tomorrow and post my opinon.

Meanwhile, I think you could check this one :
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Cheers!



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 06:25 PM
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At least we are not arguing about whether or not such a thing is even possible anymore.


I still say anyone who is skeptical should just get into meditation for themselves, and start from there.



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 07:59 PM
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reply to post by bsbray11
 


Alright, I'll entertain a 'quantum mind' theory for a minute, but unfortunately despite any quantum 'activity' taking place within the brain, it would be localized only to the brain.

In other words, that quote you gave me


Membrane potential is constantly fluctuating due to random openings and closing of ion channels and the like. Mini synaptic events also occur stochastically probably due to quantum fluctuations.


Would be totally dependent upon the physical configuration of the neurons. Meaning that whatever quantum effect going on isn't going to somehow 'detach' from the brain and fly off into some astral plane of existence. Whatever happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas.


Wow. First you say what's going on is unknown, then you say nothing is moving faster than the speed of light. Yes, something is. Did you not see the measurement of the lower bounds of this phenomena being 10,000 times the speed of light? Do you think they are measuring "nothing"?


To be honest it was a misunderstanding of the phenomena on my part. I did find a decent description of the mechanics going on behind the phenomena and I can state with confidence that the apparent measurement your describing is not an actual measurement of 'something' occurring in a physical sense. If I was able to garner a better understanding, then I am confident you will be able to do so as well and thus I will leave that up to yourself unless you *really* find it difficult to utilize google to find the relevant information on what I mentioned.


You have to understand what the technical stuff really means before you can see past it to the reality of the mystery they are attempting to label. There is a difference between the word "light," and this stuff that is beaming into your eyeballs this very instant.


Right... explain it.


All you have to do is admit we may be onto something. And you might even tell us that you'll do some personal investigation into it yourself! Are you too afraid to do that?


You assume I haven't attempted anything before. Shame on you. Quiet the contrary actually and from my personal experience and cursory look into what I thought was occurring, I discovered it's all BS.



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 08:33 PM
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Originally posted by sirnex
Alright, I'll entertain a 'quantum mind' theory for a minute, but unfortunately despite any quantum 'activity' taking place within the brain, it would be localized only to the brain.

In other words, that quote you gave me


Membrane potential is constantly fluctuating due to random openings and closing of ion channels and the like. Mini synaptic events also occur stochastically probably due to quantum fluctuations.


Would be totally dependent upon the physical configuration of the neurons. Meaning that whatever quantum effect going on isn't going to somehow 'detach' from the brain and fly off into some astral plane of existence. Whatever happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas.


That's fair enough, but you still don't know where Las Vegas is. You only THINK you do. Turns out Las Vegas is in New York, and vice versa, and so everywhere occupies the same physical space. Just not within physical space. (Ie, when you are physically embodied here, it never appears this way, and time always appears linear, etc.)
This is an implication of string theory, and how time and space "appear" from "higher" perspectives: they are eventually all in "superposition" from the perspective of the unified field in which everything rests, including what gives rise to consciousness itself.

I never said I was proposing anything magical to you. Mysterious, sure, even to science, but not magical, and certainly nothing we would know to be impossible. On the contrary, it is very easy to validate with the time and effort. You probably interpret many/most of my words entirely differently than I do myself, but you can rest assured that I am a very logical person myself and don't jump from this idea to that on a whim. It's just very easy to fall through the gaps that my words haven't filled, because there is only so much you can say about these things. I definitely know what it is like to read something, it not make any sense to me whatsoever, and then come back later and suddenly it hits me. I was just looking at it from the wrong end. And there is no easy way to explain my perspective in full...



I did find a decent description of the mechanics going on behind the phenomena and I can state with confidence that the apparent measurement your describing is not an actual measurement of 'something' occurring in a physical sense.


Now who's sounding "new agey"?



If I was able to garner a better understanding, then I am confident you will be able to do so as well and thus I will leave that up to yourself unless you *really* find it difficult to utilize google to find the relevant information on what I mentioned.


What I find difficult is your attitude that you must be correct in your sentiments no matter what.



You have to understand what the technical stuff really means before you can see past it to the reality of the mystery they are attempting to label. There is a difference between the word "light," and this stuff that is beaming into your eyeballs this very instant.


Right... explain it.


I can't explain to you what light "really" is, that is exactly my point. Just because you know the word "light," and you know "photon," and you know "photon has 'no' mass," and it behaves such and such a way in this theoretical model.... Those are lots of big words, describing essentially very simple motions, but still no one knows what light "is." No one knows what an electron "is." Simply how they behave and certain other measurable characteristics of them. If we knew what these things "were," we would not still be investing time and money into studying them. We are always learning more.

It would be like saying I "know" you, simply because I have watched the way you move under a microscope on a daily basis. That's nothing. I can say, well, "it" usually stops moving for about a 3rd of an entire "period" (ie day). (That is when you're sleeping, btw.) And I can say, "it" moves around a bit during the other 2/3 period. And this is all demonstrable and can be proven, just so easily as you go to bed every night at a roughly comparable time. And you may go to work and those types of things also in regular intervals. And the anomalies, the times when you do different things, well, who in the hell knows how a scientist would interpret that sort of thing. But is very much the same with physics, we don't really know what we are looking at, which is why we continue to study these things. I would wager there are entire worlds "down there" that we are yet ignorant of, on the fringes of the unified field, or maybe making up the "unified field" itself. I'm not trying to say an electron is any more alive than a planet or rock, either, simply that we are only watching its motions and other measurable behaviors (with our current tools), and trying to determine what something "is" based on that. The whole way of going about this leaves TONS of possibilities open and there is no reason to accept these simple motions and words as the "purpose" of the electron, or to say these things are definitely what an electron "is," any more than you "are" your movements on a day-to-day basis.



All you have to do is admit we may be onto something. And you might even tell us that you'll do some personal investigation into it yourself! Are you too afraid to do that?


You assume I haven't attempted anything before. Shame on you. Quiet the contrary actually and from my personal experience and cursory look into what I thought was occurring, I discovered it's all BS.


Well then what you discovered was quite different from what I discovered, and one of us must have reached a premature conclusion.

[edit on 18-10-2009 by bsbray11]



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 07:54 AM
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reply to post by bsbray11
 



they are eventually all in "superposition" from the perspective of the unified field in which everything rests, including what gives rise to consciousness itself.


Granted the theory does state that, what the theory does not state is that consciousness within that field can 'detach' and fly about at will in such a manner as astral travel. Every quantum event is tied to the physical components of its system, so despite superposition QM isn't stating that 'consciousness' is a free will entity able to detach from it's physical components.


It's just very easy to fall through the gaps that my words haven't filled, because there is only so much you can say about these things. I definitely know what it is like to read something, it not make any sense to me whatsoever, and then come back later and suddenly it hits me. I was just looking at it from the wrong end. And there is no easy way to explain my perspective in full...


Everything I've ever read about astral travel or things similar to it appear to me to be born from spiritualism, which I define as 'magical/mystical' aspects. Meaning, there is no naturalistic explanation for their occurrences. With that said, most of these beliefs have been born from primitive man before the necessary tools were developed to better understand reality around them and not it appears that those same tools are being used to reaffirm what primitive man was saying all along. Yet, I think it is foolish to put modern knowledge on primitive ideas myself as if they did know what we know now.


What I find difficult is your attitude that you must be correct in your sentiments no matter what.


I am not saying I don't think it's impossible, but that there is no evidence for it nor does QM even postulate that it's a possibility. Misunderstanding or purposeful twisting is not proof of in other words.


No one knows what an electron "is." Simply how they behave and certain other measurable characteristics of them. If we knew what these things "were," we would not still be investing time and money into studying them. We are always learning more.


Currently with our limited knowledge and technological capability, your right. We don't know as of yet, but not knowing is not proof of anything else. It's quiet faulty to assume something must be true because there is no current explanation for something else.


Well then what you discovered was quite different from what I discovered, and one of us must have reached a premature conclusion.


Agreed, but then again... look at the experience within the idea of an astral realm itself. Everyone has their own unique experience and thought on what it is. It's no different than exclaiming my religion is more right than yours because I have personal experience that it is true. Personal experience is not proof of necessarily. Out of the wide variety of astral descriptions, hardly any are in agreement at all. The same applies to religions, OOBEs and NDEs.



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 08:16 AM
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Originally posted by sirnex
Granted the theory does state that, what the theory does not state is that consciousness within that field can 'detach' and fly about at will in such a manner as astral travel.


Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever seen any scientific model that explains what consciousness specifically arises from in the first place; have you?



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 10:17 AM
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reply to post by bsbray11
 


Depends on how your looking at it I suppose.

I understand when people are talking about consciousness, they are lumping a whole subset of different aspects of the human mind into one main group of mind.

Consciousness is nothing more than self-awareness. Intelligence is an ability to comprehend something. Experience is the stored memory of past events. All these things are individualistic in nature, but they sum total makes up what we call the mind or 'self'. When any one physical component of the brain is altered or damaged, the self is subsequently changed as well. I mean, that alone should be proof enough that the self arises from the structure of the brain alone and not from some outside force that is capable of detaching from the brain in any meaningful or useful manner. What I see here is common sense, I suppose others look at the problem differently.



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 12:31 PM
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reply to post by sirnex
 


Yes, in fact what is "common sense" to you is still a mystery to science. Look up "qualia."

Being conscious is so natural and effortless, it's easy to assume that it comes from your body, and is somewhere inside your body, especially for materialistic science types. But there IS plenty of evidence in a variety of forms, from clairvoyant dreams to the work of people like Carl Jung and MIT's Bill Tiller, of peoples' minds being able to access information NOT within the body, or at least not without resorting to quantum mechanisms to retrieve the information locally. Which is probably exactly what is happening imo. It is just extremely hard to have such a clear mind and sharp focus as to be able to pick up such subtle information. But being somewhat experienced in meditation, I do know that relaxing tension in the body and quieting the mind allows access to much deeper levels than your state of consciousness as you walk around and watch TV. I can tell you these things as fact, but it means nothing, and would be of absolutely no use to you whatsoever, unless you tried them for yourself and got your own results.



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 02:16 PM
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reply to post by bsbray11
 



Yes, in fact what is "common sense" to you is still a mystery to science. Look up "qualia."


I'm going to go ahead and say I am a 'qualophobe'. The whole concept appears to be just over thinking and applying 'something more' to perception that doesn't appear to actually exist. I'm not sure how to put my own ideas down on it, but it just appears wrong and silly.


Being conscious is so natural and effortless, it's easy to assume that it comes from your body, and is somewhere inside your body, especially for materialistic science types.


It's equally easy either way and the interesting part is that the 'spiritual' *to steal the term* side of the argument was thought up long before we even knew what a brain was or did.


But there IS plenty of evidence in a variety of forms, from clairvoyant dreams to the work of people like Carl Jung and MIT's Bill Tiller, of peoples' minds being able to access information NOT within the body, or at least not without resorting to quantum mechanisms to retrieve the information locally.


I'm going to pull the BS card out on this one. I haven't seen any credible evidence for clairvoyance at all. Surely if some feat like that were true, physics as we know it today would be turned upside down just to explain how it works. Yet, it has never been adequately proven beyond crackpot pseudo-science.


It is just extremely hard to have such a clear mind and sharp focus as to be able to pick up such subtle information.


You would also require the necessary sensory organs to perceive that information. Please point out where those organs are. I mean honestly now, we require sensory organs for every sense *except* when it comes to something that science just happens to know nothing about?


But being somewhat experienced in meditation, I do know that relaxing tension in the body and quieting the mind allows access to much deeper levels than your state of consciousness as you walk around and watch TV. I can tell you these things as fact, but it means nothing, and would be of absolutely no use to you whatsoever, unless you tried them for yourself and got your own results.


You assume I haven't or don't meditate. I know meditation is highly beneficial for the mind and body for a variety of reasons. Yet never in meditation have I ever experienced something 'odd' or 'otherworldly' in any sense.



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 04:33 PM
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I read all the stuff about Astral Travel and I don't really have any more to say that I haven't said in the many other threads in the past (although I thought the OP's initial way of describing it was fresh and interesting).

However, about the Vatican vaults:



i always wondered though that if you could astral travel there(since that's probably the only way to see anything in there, unless they do accept left eyes), if there were psychics who worked within that would be able to percieve and catch or harm you.


I don't think they'd need anyone to guard anything. Assuming all the books there are closed, how'd you read it? By staring at the cover? Even if you could somehow preceive inside it'd likely be in Aramaic or some other ancient language that few can read - the chances of someone being able to AP and read those sorts of languages are probably statistically very low.

[edit on 19-10-2009 by Nova]



posted on Oct, 21 2009 @ 12:53 PM
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Originally posted by Nova
I read all the stuff about Astral Travel and I don't really have any more to say that I haven't said in the many other threads in the past (although I thought the OP's initial way of describing it was fresh and interesting).

However, about the Vatican vaults:



i always wondered though that if you could astral travel there(since that's probably the only way to see anything in there, unless they do accept left eyes), if there were psychics who worked within that would be able to percieve and catch or harm you.


I don't think they'd need anyone to guard anything. Assuming all the books there are closed, how'd you read it? By staring at the cover? Even if you could somehow preceive inside it'd likely be in Aramaic or some other ancient language that few can read - the chances of someone being able to AP and read those sorts of languages are probably statistically very low.

[edit on 19-10-2009 by Nova]


Besides, that's what the Akashic Records are for...
it's basically an Astral Library of the infinite, but it can appear/look differently for each individual. Anything that did happen or will happen is there, anything and everything is already recorded there.



posted on Oct, 21 2009 @ 01:24 PM
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reply to post by v01i0
 


there are practices you can do to prove astral projection is real, it requires a window, some tape, and a deck of cards, one of which you pick randomly and tape to the window, then you project and keep a clear focus when looking at what the card is on the other side.



posted on Oct, 21 2009 @ 01:28 PM
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Originally posted by Lister87
My main problem with things such as astral travel, and near death experiences, are that, you have to take peoples word for it, there is no proof.

Even as the poster above has written, someone 'astral travels' to a place they haven't been before, then goes back in the living world, and finds the same things they wrote down in the astral travel journey..

But again, we have to take their word for it. There isn't a way of documenting/recording it at all, sadly.

It's a very interesting idea, but to me, it's more of a way of controlling the brain during sleep.


-_-;; As my above post has described there is a way... and you could also do this type of experiment in a controlled environment but you would still have to take their word for it, i mean how do you know it wasn't faked? Thus is why you need to find out for yourself.

EDIT: I also wonder if TPTB know the connection between dreaming and astral projecting and is thus why I have been taught in my science book that you can't feel anything in a dream.... lol which is complete BS

[edit on 21-10-2009 by 4stral4pprentice]



posted on Oct, 21 2009 @ 08:39 PM
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Originally posted by sirnex

Yes, in fact what is "common sense" to you is still a mystery to science. Look up "qualia."


I'm going to go ahead and say I am a 'qualophobe'. The whole concept appears to be just over thinking and applying 'something more' to perception that doesn't appear to actually exist. I'm not sure how to put my own ideas down on it, but it just appears wrong and silly.


Fine. I am perfectly willing to agree to disagree on this.

Take care of yourself.




Btw, Carl Jung's work and Bill Tiller's work are both out there for you to read, a lot of it/most of it online for free. In your mentality you would probably read them and force yourself into the same conclusion though. But for anyone interested, they're there and will remain, among other similar works not mentioned here.

[edit on 21-10-2009 by bsbray11]



posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 11:18 AM
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reply to post by bsbray11
 


Very kool.!!!

I will try and find some of their work, thanx.!
=)



posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 10:20 PM
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reply to post by bsbray11
 


Well, I am aware of Jung, but I don't personally follow anything that deals with psychology. I tried doing some research on Tiller, can't find much on him beyond his website and a wiki article lacking in any substantial information. As for Tiller himself, I find it odd that only he was able to be a visionary and discover an ability to manipulate matter without the use of limbs while the rest of science itself remains wholly ignorant of such an amazing feat.

I did notice on the website something about intentions being able to change the PH levels of water. That immediately reminded me of some oriental man, I forget his name, who made a similar claim about emotions being able to effect snowflake formation. He too claimed to be a visionary, but it turns out he was a fake. Suffice it to say, I would imagine Tiller is a fake as well.

Let's put it this way, we have five senses and all five senses require their own individual sensory organs to function. Through these organs we are able to perceive the world around us, to determine where we are in relation to our surroundings and to protect ourselves from things that may be harmful to our survival. Beyond those five senses we also possess four appendages that are able to move our selves and manipulate our environment. Never has it been recorded that we are able to perceive or manipulate without some form of organ or appendage.

Yet, some people make these wild claims that they alone have discovered subtle energies that exist allowing the *brain* to produce actions outside of the skull without any viable means. Never once are they able to point out what these subtle energies are. Never are they able to measure them, proving that they certainly are not anything known to science. And most importantly all of these visionaries have their own separate versions of what is possible and what is not with non in agreement with each other. Yet, they sure do sell a lot of damn books and seminars. At least they have that in common.



posted on Oct, 22 2009 @ 10:27 PM
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Originally posted by sirnex
As for Tiller himself, I find it odd that only he was able to be a visionary and discover an ability to manipulate matter without the use of limbs while the rest of science itself remains wholly ignorant of such an amazing feat.


It's really nothing odd. It's called "arrogance" and the whole "scientific community" suffers from it time and again. There was an article recently about a man who regrew a finger, even though that isn't "supposed" to happen either. Do you remember, you are reading new scientific literature? Not something that is already decades old, etc? Well, except for Jung's work, which is already decades old.


I did notice on the website something about intentions being able to change the PH levels of water. That immediately reminded me of some oriental man, I forget his name, who made a similar claim about emotions being able to effect snowflake formation. He too claimed to be a visionary, but it turns out he was a fake. Suffice it to say, I would imagine Tiller is a fake as well.


Yes, I suppose that would suffice for you. You don't even have to actually look at his data for this to suffice, either. Amazing. You are a genius, aren't you?


Let's put it this way, we have five senses and all five senses require their own individual sensory organs to function. Through these organs we are able to perceive the world around us, to determine where we are in relation to our surroundings and to protect ourselves from things that may be harmful to our survival. Beyond those five senses we also possess four appendages that are able to move our selves and manipulate our environment. Never has it been recorded that we are able to perceive or manipulate without some form of organ or appendage.


Here is the arrogance coming into play again. Since we never proved this stuff scientifically before, there is no use trying now, because it obviously must be false. Or else we would already know it! Duh! Case closed.


Yet, some people make these wild claims


"Wild claims." Again, same thing.


You know, I think we might as well not pay scientists to do any research anymore. It's clear to me from your logic, that everything worth knowing about life and the human body, and all the energies present in the universe, is already understood. Don't you think we really ought to stop funding all these silly research projects and things and just admit we already know everything? MIT should cut Dr. Tiller off immediately! We don't need to look at his data to know it's wrong!

[edit on 22-10-2009 by bsbray11]



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