The Two Jehovahs of Psalm 110

reply to post by silent thunder


The trinity is false doctrine. God (Elohim) is one as a family but currently consists of 2. The Father and Son. The Holy Spirit is the power of God, not a person of the trinity.

Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by silent thunder

 

The trinity is false doctrine. God (Elohim) is one as a family but currently consists of 2. The Father and Son. The Holy Spirit is the power of God, not a person of the trinity.

OK, thanks for your perspective. Probably millions of Christians would disagree, but I'm always willing to explore new ideas.

This has been a great thread, by the way. Thanks for your research and efforts.

actually god is only one, not even 2,

the slave and the boss become one, where there is glorification,
but glorification in this world before the millenium and paradise, they are the same symbol, has a function, it is not given where
it is not functional, and it means that oneness stays in a human act, even when it is free, the freedom is in agreement with god's will and will offer up the freedoms normally associated with god himself... it's like where god lives in heaven he lives through his acts, the acts all carry the total in them, and the total carries the acts.

In this reality you have the son of man as endgoal, promised land, where all go,
so jesus went there and stayed on eart, while other prophets went away when they were in salvation, seal of the prophet, they didn't stay...but they are the son of man together.

it's like your 2 eyes, they do different things but they are still doing what you want,
if you could put your will in them, they become free, but you want them to stay eyes for a while, because they have the same will as you, they stay those divided eyes, but their body is your body, all.

people tend to make it difficult, when god his truth is logic and explainable.
as promised.

If god comes back as he did with jesus, then he doesn't come back to play god, but to see all the rest as his body, so if a glorified elijah comes back, he will not be here to play 'god' but to teach love and hope. All the angels see their bodies as equal, and see everyone as a part of it. But they have 2 sided swords, meaning, they react sharp and forgive strong. Such beings would be classified as anticrists by religion, as a repetition of the past... when it is promised that the sun will be darkened and the moon red, it means eclipsed. The moon is the prince, michael, the sons.



[edit on 20-10-2009 by pasttheclouds]

reply to post by pasttheclouds


I'm gonna be honest with you. Don't take it personal. I get very uninterested in posters who post in the form of a prophet or something along those lines. I welcome it to the thread but you'll notice I don't respond to it that often. That being said, keep on bringing your point of views and perspectives. I welcome them all. I may challenge you but will not put you down for your beliefs. God bless and peace be with you all.

reply to post by silent thunder


Your most welcome and thank you for the kind comments. If you're interested in this one you should visit my profile page and view the other threads I've started. They all have interesting perspectives to them. Peace.

reply to post by Locoman8


i guess you are right. I m bad in combining chitchat and (explaing) prophesy.
maybe i wrote enough here. Truth comes in you by you. I could only try to help to bring god's message of one..sometimes it was more like a practise... to learn where humans fail... if the truth is so hidden, then how do you bring it ??? the only way out is to give people something to think about it, that's why the prophet will be an angel.

it's true, no questions come back to me, nobody is really interested,
i can't change that truth. I can't change my poetical capacity neither.
I tried and i failed.

take care you !


[edit on 21-10-2009 by pasttheclouds]

reply to post by pasttheclouds


That doesn't mean you have to quit. There are numerous conversations in this thread and I'm sure there are plenty of people here interested in your posts. I welcome it all.

i don't help you by repeating myself.

If someone put a goal, then the way will be clear,
if people first see the different ways and no goal,
they can not find the truth in scripture.
There is no way of understanding god, if your goal
is not that god, and that god is dual only here, but one everywhere.
It means the bible is made dual, with oneness hidden in it.

It's is a good thing to discuss every word of the bible.
But the bible is only a copy of logic,
logic is a structure, and that structure is truth, is god.
that structure is free and one.
The bible explains that structure in a mantle of stories,
growth and colours. But it tells logic.


[edit on 21-10-2009 by pasttheclouds]

Originally posted by Locoman8

Psalm 110 gives us undeniable Scriptural evidence that there were two divine Beings Who were both known as Jehovah in Old Testament times. In the first verse of Psalm 110, David was inspired to prophesy that a divine Being called Adon would be invited to sit at the right hand of a divine Being called Jehovah. In the original Hebrew text, the same divine Being Who is called Adon in Verse 1 is called Jehovah in Verse 5. Psalm 110 is actually describing one Jehovah sitting beside another Jehovah! The word Jehovah in Verse 5, however, was altered by the Levitical Massorites to read Adonay. The Levites were hiding the truth that the Adon of Verse 1 was a second Jehovah!

Rediculous. Like there are many men there are many lords in this world, but only one Jahveh. Verse one from Psalm 110 reads:

"Jahveh said to the king of Israel: Sit by my right, until I overturn your enemies."

The Lord of David is the "Messiah", the institution of the annointed king of Israel. David was messiah while he lived, but he is now dead, but there came kings after David who were annointed into Jahveh's annointed king of Israel and/or Judah. It's like in the saying "The king is dead, long live the king!" Like God is a god for the living, and the living existing God, so is the Messiah the annointed king of Israel. Or would you say David rules Israel today? The current leader of Israel is President Shimon Peres, and he like all other Israeli presidents are elected for seven years at the time.

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic


The idea here is that the great Jehovah was speaking to the Messiah in His pre-human form as a God.... a lesser God than the Father but a God nontheless. This would be considered a lesser Jehovah as well. In the spelling it would read as "Jehovih instead of Jehovah as to depict the lesser of the two Jehovah's. Either way, it's an idea and I thought it to be an interesting topic to discuss. I believe Jesus to be the Jehovah of the Old Testament and the Father to be revealed by Christ in the NT. The Father was unknown to the Jews because the only God they knew was Jehovah who was the pre-human form of Jesus. As the Word of God, Jesus would have been the burning bush Moses heard the words of God come from. He would have been the voice of God at Mt. Sinai. He would have been the voice or image the prophets saw or heard. The Word of God is also considered the "Spokesperson of the Family of God" as God is translated as "Elohim" a uni-plural form of God. One family with many members... currently the Father and Son but soon will consist of the Saints. The spoken Word of God, which the Israelites knew as Jehovah or "I AM" was Jesus Christ but if there is just one Jehovah, it could be that Jehovah Father is the "behind-the-scenes" God who sends the Son to be His Spokesperson... or the visible Jehovah. Remember, Jehovah was seen by people in the OT yet it's stated that no man can lay eyes on God or hear the voice of God without being killed. So, there can easily be two Jehovahs. One lesser and one greater.

reply to post by Locoman8


"Now what would Jesus do?" He'd probably say something along the lines of...

"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other."

Just in case you didn't know it, the Abrahamic religions are all monotheistic. Not oligatheistic, not polytheistic, MONO - one - THEOS - God. But you are allowed to think, just please, when discussing details of an ancient Hebrew text, read the Hebrew first.

-- JHVH or Jahveh (Jehovah is not corresponding to correct vocalisation)
-- said to my lord (ie. the Messiah, the institution of the Israeli kingdom, nothing mysterious like what Christians put into this word, Messiah means "king of Israel", simple as that)
-- Sit down beside me until I overturn you enemies (showing the mutual relationship between the king of Israel and God)

reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic


In the beginning, GOD (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth.


Elohim is more than one used in a singular sense. A group of people in a single cause. Good words for this is: Family, Club, Members Only, Sport Team, etc... I'm from the Atlanta area so I'll use the Falcons football team as an example....


"Ryan hands off to Turner and Turner breaks three tackles. He's running the hash marks... The 20, the 10, TOUCHDOWN FALCONS!!!



Now did Turner make a touchdown or did the Falcons do it as a whole? God, in this analogy is the Falcons. Turner is like Jesus Christ.... who did the work and gave a touchdown. The Falcons are credited for it yet Turner is the one who did all the work (outside of the hand-off). God is a family, not a single entity but a family currently consisting of 2... the Father and the Son.


Edited to add:

And monotheism is held true if God is a Family, not a person. We worship the family of God as our one God. The Father and Son are worshipped through the fact that God.. as a whole... is worshipped.

[edit on 10/23/2009 by Locoman8]

Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic

 

In the beginning, GOD (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth.


Elohim is more than one used in a singular sense. A group of people in a single cause. Good words for this is: Family, Club, Members Only, Sport Team, etc... I'm from the Atlanta area so I'll use the Falcons football team as an example....

Also called "Plural intensive" or "Majesty pluralis". In many languages we use plural addressing when speaking to people we either don't know or who deserves the distance due to their heightened person which deserves respect somehow. In Germany if you ask a stranger for directions or whatever, you ask him: "Können Sie bitte...." plural. When the king refer to himself he might actually say "The king wants to...." instead of saying "I want to..." in order to state that he is representative of an institution. He is not merely himself, but a representative or vessel of the long line of kings. The black slaves of America would come to their master if he was sick, and ask: "We sick today, master?" plural.

However, in English you don't see this anymore. You say "your majesty" however, which is a remnant of this I speak of, while we say "Deres majestet" plural. You used to have it otherwise though. Thou, thee, thy, thine, mine etc. which you find in KJV shows this I'm refering to in a certain sense. Elohim might be translated "God of gods" or "all gods in One person". The master of the lot of gods and angels.

Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by Neo Christian Mystic

 

In the beginning, GOD (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth.


Elohim is more than one used in a singular sense. A group of people in a single cause. Good words for this is: Family, Club, Members Only, Sport Team, etc... I'm from the Atlanta area so I'll use the Falcons football team as an example....

gen 1:1
בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ׃

created or "bara" is in a singular conjugation.

neo is right about "Plural intensive" or "Majesty pluralis"

its talking about one god

The word Elohim possesses a plural intensive syntax and is singular in meaning. This is self-evident from the fact that the verb "created" (bara) in Genesis 1:1 is in the singular. This linguistic pattern is well known and widely used throughout the Jewish scriptures. For example, I am certain that many of our website readers are familiar with the Hebrew word chayim, meaning "life." Notice that this word contains the identical plural suffix "im," as in Elohim, yet it repeatedly means "life", in the singular, throughout the Bible.
www.outreachjudaism.org...

home.pacific.net.au...

godandson.reslight.net...

www.biblestudytools.com...

reply to post by miriam0566


Wow! We actually agree on one thing.

Jokes aside, Elohim is a strange word, and it may be translated into Forces. Elohim is the king of heaven, ruling over all the forces of the universe, and with a conciderable force of warriors under him being his instruments. From time to time this power is handed over to one of his sons (Jesju is one, Uriel another and even Satan, who used to be named Samael before he lost a certain battle with an enclave of angels. He was fighting with his brothers and lost. He didn't lie and fall, no he lost a battle based on certain disagreements having to do with Man aquiring knowledge. In the Zohar and other works of Kabalah and Talmud, this battle I speak of is explained as a direct reaction to God deciding to give Adam all knowledge available. Raziel (who was later condemned by his own oath, after he was among the angels who married humans) was the arch angel guarding all heavenly knowledge and secrets. He was doorkeeper of the highest heaven, and in many ways God's assistant. He was ordered to write a book and give it to Adam. Satan however, didn't fancy this idea that Man should aquire knowledge of divine secrets even he didn't know about. So he snatched the book and together with his companions, they sealed it and sunk it down in the ocean. Later when God finds out, he orders Leviathan the sea monster to dive down and fetch the book, often refered to as the Spark of Heaven or Book of Raziel. And the book was given back to the humans. Traditionally, Enoch of Seth's leg.

My point is. If you are to talk about Two Gods, try comparing what you think you know, with what you know after you have learned the secrets and profound knowledge written into the Biblical account. Nothing's as it seems. For knowledge is power, and you don't wan't to see happy go lucky Christians with the divine powers. Sooner or later the vast majority of Christians will have to eat grass, crawl to the cross and gnaw rocks. For what you believe to be true, just isn't. We draw conclusions from what we think we have read and what we believe we have understood. All I can see is Good Luck, and see you later alligator

you could be both right

Because that Kingdom is of the Lord,
and they shall have authority
over all the nations. Psalms 22

“For behold, the stone that I have laid before Joshua:
Upon the stone are seven eyes” (Zechariah 3:9). “These seven
rejoice to see . . .They are the eyes of the Lord” (Zechariah 4:10).

"Behold, the Man whose name is the
BRANCH! From His place He shall branch out, And He shall build the
temple of the LORD; 13Yes, He shall build the temple of the LORD. He shall
bear the glory, And shall sit and rule on His throne; So He shall be a priest on
His throne, And the counsel of peace shall be between them both."

The annointed ones were maybe human,
but they are prophets from the son of man as total,
which is the father in his only begotten son,
when they are glorified by the father and they glorified the father as sons
they are and become the father. the kingdom becomes many, still is one.

God is 1, but why does everyone underestimates god as not being able to live with many faces ? that's still only one god,

is god one ? yes
is god not able to live through many , with the body just being everything else ? yes, he is able

god his truth is found in simplicity.



[edit on 23-10-2009 by pasttheclouds]

To both Miriam and Neo, I would agree with you except there is another portion of Genesis 1 that throws that explanation off.

"Let US make man in OUR image". Verse 26.

You could argue that God is speaking of angels but angels are not made in God's image. Angels are servants or slaves of God and will be in submission to the saints as well. Only humans are made in God's image. Not a physical image, but more so the attributes like dominion. We are the gods of all of God's creation. We have dominion over all of it as God said in Genesis 1. So, in the image of God, we'd be in the image of the Family of God and will eventually become part of the family of God through the marriage feast (1st resurrection) or adoption (2nd resurrection).

Originally posted by Locoman8
You could argue that God is speaking of angels but angels are not made in God's image. Angels are servants or slaves of God and will be in submission to the saints as well. Only humans are made in God's image. Not a physical image, but more so the attributes like dominion.

i agree, verse 26 is different.

but i want to address this first.

there is nothing to support your claim here. there is no scripture that says they werent made in god's image.

infact your only claim lies in dominion. what about love, sense of justice, free will, rational thinking? i would say they are made in god's image.

but i agree that the angels are not what verse 26 is referring to.

jesus is god's "master worker". likely God was talking to him.

does this change the way we look at the word elohim? not at all. it is referring to Jehovah, the almighty, the one true god, the father. not a god head or family.

there is nothing to support that elohim refers to a god family

reply to post by miriam0566


Umm, I thought verse 26 did support that claim. I think we are both using assumption for the unique word "Elohim". On the one hand, it can be used as a title of authority but at the same time it can easily be used as one unit with multiple members. I guess it's all on how you interpret it. I'll be honest with you, we will continue to disagree on this specific subject and I think the barrier lies within the JW doctrine you seem to grasp so tightly. There's nothing wrong with that. You know what you believe. I just hope you don't soley depend on the doctrine of one religion and you read and interpret for yourself. God reveals what He wants to you when you pray for understanding. I know, I don't have to tell you this. God bless you.

Originally posted by Locoman8
God reveals what He wants to you when you pray for understanding.

let me show you what god has revealed to me

1 timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

isaiah 45:5 "I am Jehovah, and there is no other ((((not good for your 2 jehovah theory)))); Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me;

Deut 4: 35 "To you it was shown that you might know that Jehovah, He is God; there is no other besides Him.

the bible (god's revelation to man about himself) is very clear. One Jehovah, one son.

why are you trying to to theorize about the plural of elohim when hebrew grammar already provides an answer?