The Two Jehovahs of Psalm 110, page 5
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reply posted on 24-10-2009 @ 08:17 AM by zerbot565
reply to post by miriam0566


the bible (god's revelation to man about himself) is very clear. One Jehovah, one son.


--

hehe pretty shovenistic , this is where the trinity is needed ,
no matter how much you ejaculate on clay you ´ll always need the holy spirit for the son to appare.


reply posted on 24-10-2009 @ 08:31 AM by zerbot565
reply to post by miriam0566


sorry just had to ,

it was not intened as a de rail but more a pun,

just as much in jesus birth there had to be a both partys inorder for son (third) to be born ,
two "holy spirits" dont make son


just as in Gods creation both are needed when creation is made, you can use all the clay in the world yet you need the holy spirit for it to become son.

dad mom
son

let us make man in our image



reply posted on 24-10-2009 @ 08:40 AM by miriam0566
Originally posted by zerbot565
reply to post by miriam0566


sorry just had to ,

it was not intened as a de rail but more a pun,

just as much in jesus birth there had to be a both partys inorder for son (third) to be born ,
two "holy spirits" dont make son


just as in Gods creation both are needed when creation is made, you can use all the clay in the world yet you need the holy spirit for it to become son.

dad mom
son

let us make man in our image


sorry, still fail to see the relevance


reply posted on 24-10-2009 @ 07:57 PM by Locoman8
reply to post by miriam0566


Just so you know, the two Jehova's thing is just a theory and I thought it would make for a good discussion. Also, for your theory on "One Jehovah" who is "One God" I have to use scripture we see often on these threads....

John 1:1-3

"In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God and the Word was God."

And your special NWT

"In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God and the Word was a god."

Either way, is shows that the Word.... who we both agree to be Jesus Christ... is a God. Even my theory of the "God Family" can explain the "One God" idea and still allow Jesus to be God as well as the Father.

Jesus Elohim and Father Elohim.

If you hold on to the "One God" idea, Jesus couldn't be a God at all. And I'm speaking of authoritive God, not the "god of this world" Satan. There could be only one God in authority yet Jesus and the Father share authority.. grant you the Father is higher in that authority.

Just my 2 cents.


reply posted on 26-10-2009 @ 11:59 AM by miriam0566
Originally posted by oliveoil
In the NWT it says in john 1:1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.

How many Gods do you have here ? I count two.


you are correct. there are actually many gods.

this makes sense since "god" simply means "mighty one"

even satan is referred to as a god. (2cor 4:4)

If the NWT claims that Jesus and Jahovah are not equal then why does the NWT say in John 10: 30 I and the Father are one.”

The NWTs translation must be wrong.


the NWT doesnt make that claim. ALL bibles make that claim

john 14:[28] Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
KJV

jesus said that he and his father were "one" with respects to unity, not physical oneness.

john 17:[20] Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
[21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
[22] And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them;that they may be one, even as we are one:

jesus is obviously not saying that his servants are one individual. he compares their oneness with that between him and his father.

it obvious that when jesus said "I and the father are one", that he was referring to unity, not them being the same person.


reply posted on 26-10-2009 @ 12:22 PM by oliveoil
The NWT does indeed say in John-10:30 that he and the father are one.

www.watchtower.org...

The NWT also says,

Matthew 4:1

1 Then Jesus was led by the spirit up into the wilderness to be tempted by the Devil.


Mark 1:12

12 And immediately the spirit impelled him to go into the wilderness. 13 So he continued in the wilderness forty days, being tempted by Satan, and he was with the wild beasts, but the angels were ministering to him.

Luke 4:1-2

1 Now Jesus, full of holy spirit, turned away from the Jordan, and he was led about by the spirit in the wilderness 2 for forty days, while being tempted by the Devil


How did the devil tempt Jesus ?

Luke 4: 5-7 says,

5 So he brought him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth in an instant of time; 6 and the Devil said to him: “I will give you all this authority and the glory of them, because it has been delivered to me, and to whomever I wish I give it. 7 You, therefore, if you do an act of worship before me, it will all be yours.”

In Luke 4:8 Jesus says,

8 In reply Jesus said to him: “It is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”

Then the Devil said,
Luke 4:9-11

9 Now he led him into Jerusalem and stationed him upon the battlement of the temple and said to him: “If you are a son of God, hurl yourself down from here; 10 for it is written, ‘He will give his angels a charge concerning you, to preserve you,’ 11 and, ‘They will carry you on their hands, that you may at no time strike your foot against a stone.

Jesus then replied,

Luke 4: 12
12 In answer Jesus said to him: “It is said, ‘You must not put Jehovah your God to the test.

In conclusion Luke 4: 13 says,
13 So the Devil, having concluded all the temptation, retired from him until another convenient time.


If Matthew 4:1, Mark 1:13, and Luke 4:2 are correct in saying that Jesus was tempted by the Devil,
Why then would Jesus reply back to the devil saying, " You must not put Jehovah your god to the test"?

Who was the devil tempting, Jesus or Jehovah?

One can only imply that Jesus was referring to himself as Jehovah?

If Jesus was not referring to himself as Jehovah why wouldn't he have said," You must not put the SON OF GOD to the test"?

If Jesus was not referring to himself as Jehovah ,why did he use the word YOUR GOD ?.
Is Jehovah the god of the Devil and not Jesus?

If Jesus was not referring to himself as Jehovah, Why didn't he use the words OUR GOD or MY GOD?

Matthew, Mark and Luke all claim that Jesus was tempted by the Devil. Luke then goes on to say that Jesus told the Devil "YOU MUST NOT PUT JEHOVAH YOUR GOD TO THE TEST"
Either Matthew, Mark, and Luke are lying about the Devil tempting Jesus (which they clearly are not) or Jesus is lying referring to himself as Jehovah!(Which he wouldn't do if it were not true) It can't be both! How can anyone believe any part the NWT if Matthew, Mark, Luke, and Jesus are lying? The answer must be that they are all indeed correct.
Jesus is Jehovah, and he was tempted by the Devil.


reply posted on 26-10-2009 @ 05:55 PM by Sigismundus
Hi NeoChristian--

As your Koine Greek Quote clearly states (technically gramatically speaking):

"In the Beginning was the Logos and the Logos was with God, and the Logos WAS A GOD"

So the opening of the 4th gospel (whoever wrote it) might well have been saying that the Logos was also a GOD as YHWH was a GOD sort of like Metathrone (the 'little YHWH') aka The Word, which he seemed to have used as a term for the Messiah of the Jews and may or may not have identfied this LOGOS (as Philo of Alexandria did, who wrote in the same area s the 4th gospel, i.e Egypt) with the figure of Chokhma (the so-called 'Wisdom' Goddess of Proverbs 8:22) i.e. seen as a SEPARATE GOD used by YHWH to create the universe.

YHWH owned me from the beginning of his doings
before his works of ancient days
for I was established from eternity
yea I was birthed from the very Beginning,
before the earth ever existed !

I was there before the depths came to be,
when there were no fountains abounding with water,
Yea, I came forth before the mountains were made
before the hills were set up
Even before he made the land,
nor the fields,
nor the highest part of the mounds of the earth !

When he stretched out the heavens, I was there:
I existed when he set a compass upon the face of Tehom.
When he established the clouds above:
when he girded the fountains of the deep
When he gave to the sea his decree,
that the waters should not pass their set limits !

I was near at his side when he appointed the foundations of the earth
even as one of his children:
and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him
and frolicking in the habitable parts of his earth;
but my own delights were with the sons of Adam !

or even Proverbs 9:5 ('Come drink the wine that I have mixed and eat the bread [I have kneaded]')

Whether the author of Psalm 110 had Chockmah in mind when he used the term 'adonoi' (my Lord the king)

e.g. YHWH said to my lord (the king), sit down until I have made your enemies your footstool !

or not is another question...but Judaeism never really rid itself of polytheism even after Ezra's radical 'monotheistic' reforms post 430 BC, and we still hear of 'thr gods' in the Dead Sea literature and in the mediaeval Kaballah as well...

This latent-polytheism in Judaeism (e.g. Genesis chapter 1 'Let US make man in OUR image after OUR likeness' etc.seems to have infected both Philo of Alexandria and the slightly later author of the 4th gospel who seems to have been influenced by Egyptian mysticism...

Food for thought anyway...


reply posted on 26-10-2009 @ 07:39 PM by Neo Christian Mystic
reply to post by Sigismundus


Neo Anglikan Poetry bros!

Spittin' out Dawn love, and Johnny be Goode...

[edit on 26/10/2009 by Neo Christian Mystic]


reply posted on 26-10-2009 @ 11:49 PM by Blue_Jay33
reply to post by oliveoil



Why do people that follow the NWT always try to quote from the KJV. If the NWT is true, why not quote from it, and not the KJV?


Because online it takes away 1 level of false and inaccurate statements that are constantly used against scripture.

This is why I always quote from many different bibles, when I quote scripture online I often look at 10 or 15 different versions, the one that puts across the point the best is the one I use. And maybe 10% of the time it is the NWT. All bibles have value.

For example

2 Timothy 3: 16,17 God's Word Translation
16 Every Scripture passage is inspired by God. All of them are useful for teaching, pointing out errors, correcting people, and training them for a life that has God's approval. 17 They equip God's servants so that they are completely prepared to do good things.


As for John 1:1 it's interesting how Strong's defines the Greek.

2316. theos

God, a god
Original Word: θεός
Transliteration: theos
Phonetic Spelling: (theh'-os)

Then when you talk to Greek speaking trinitarians from Greece they won't and don't use John 1:1. Why? Because they know the Greek does not support the trinity to them in that particular scripture. They do of course use all the other scriptures that seem to support their belief structure on the trinity.

So if the Greek person who believes in the trinity can't use it, that tells me "a god" is the correct way for the Greek to be interpreted.




[edit on 26-10-2009 by Blue_Jay33]
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