They are symbols of states of being

Michael the prince is similar to the eagle-vulture,
that is eating dead corpses, meaning lies,
meaning repenting, repenting gives pain ,
this pocess is uriel, then repenting gives
truth which is gabriel, and it makes you heart,
repenting gives love, it sees a wrong, and by
seeing it heals it, this is raphael...
uriel because it repents it gives pain, so
that's why he's like a fighter and 'scary'
and repenting means self judgement, so he brings partly hell
as salvation...

michael is the son. you enter heaven not by passing him,
but by becoming him...it is being a son.

it's all a bit mixed up in all the different legends..
but they are symbols.
If metatron, although not in the bible or quran,
is the second deity it could represent the glorfied
body as servant of the same body as father (king)




[edit on 15-10-2009 by pasttheclouds]

The weird Greek term 'Meta-Tron' literally means 'Behind the Throne' - another example of the Rabinnic polytheistic Tendenz in early mediaeval Ma-aseh Merkhava (proto-Kaballastic) Jewish 'mysticism'

We find this figure in a few late 2nd temple and post-destruction Merkhava Aramaic documents, e.g. the Scroll of the Book of III Henoch (which survives in Ethopic Ge'ez) describing a long series of visions of an anonmyous R. Ishma'el (whoever he was) whose language from around 200 CE uses proto-Kaballistic Merkhava terms involving an alleged vision-encounter with the 'Chariot' and the 'Throne' and the 'Power behind the Throne' (=MetaTron) who in some circles is identified sometimes with Henoch the son of Jared, and/or the Son of Man (Aram. bar-Enasaha) in the Last Days and / or the Messiah, aka the 'Little YHWH'...

this clearly shows how close Rabinnic mysticism is to 'pagan' polytheism--as if it never died out, but merely went 'underground' in Judaeism--(we see the same pre-Tendenz amongst the Dead Sea Scroll sectarian writings which speak of the 'sons of EL' and 'the gods' alongside YHWH---

Generally speaking this kind of Merkhava ('ascent chariot') Aramaic 'mystical' literature (based on the Scroll of the Book of the Prophet Hezekiel, chapters 1 and 10) was generally ONLY available for study by advanced students and only taught to them by the most mystical of mediaeval Rebbes, and certainly not meant for common consumption of the masses...since it was believed to cause madness for those who are not prepared in advance, i.e. male Jews who have not spent at least 10 years in Kaballistic pre-training (e.g. in practicing actively-prolonged trance states, along the lines of yoga meditation in Hinduism and other mystical traditions, e.g. the Sufis within Isalm, etc.)

pasttheclouds and Sigismundus:

Thank you both for your perspectives on this enigmatic figure. You both provided excellent food for thought...and very rapidly, too.

Originally posted by Locoman8
Well for starters you can read this:

In Christ’s quotation of Psalm 110 in the Gospel of Matthew, we find the Greek word Kurios, or Lord, used in place of the Old Testament name Jehovah. The Greek word Kurios, the equivalent of Jehovah, is also used in place of the name Adon.

which proves that Jehovah was used in both senses of the word Lord.

you are literally assuming κυρίῳ translates Jehovah in this instance. i say assuming because im not seeing any sort of concrete evidence that it should

the hebrew separates the 2
psalms 110:1
לְדָוִ֗ד מִ֫זְמֹ֥ור נְאֻ֤ם יְהוָ֨ה לַֽאדֹנִ֗י שֵׁ֥ב לִֽימִינִ֑י עַד־ אָשִׁ֥ית אֹ֝יְבֶ֗יךָ הֲדֹ֣ם לְרַגְלֶֽיךָ׃
says Jehovah to my Lord (literally)

we both know david in this instance is talking about 2 separate people, with out a doubt. but is jesus called Jehovah in any other scripture?

if he isnt, then how is it exactly that you claim that this verse has been changed? is there an older transcript that can attest that?

using the greek quote of this passage doesnt help your case either since all instances of "jehovah" were written as "LORD" or "κύριος"

assuming κύριος = Jehovah isnt proof since κύριος is used in other ways as well.

Matthew 12:8 κύριος γάρ ἐστιν τοῦ σαββάτου ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου.
For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath. not used as "Jehovah"

Matthew 18:25 μὴ ἔχοντος δὲ αὐτοῦ ἀποδοῦναι ἐκέλευσεν αὐτὸν ὁ κύριος πραθῆναι καὶ τὴν γυναῖκα καὶ τὰ τέκνα καὶ πάντα ὅσα ἔχει καὶ ἀποδοθῆναι.
But because he couldn't pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, with his wife, his children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. not used as "Jehovah"

Mark 12:9 τί [οὖν] ποιήσει ὁ κύριος τοῦ ἀμπελῶνος; ἐλεύσεται καὶ ἀπολέσει τοὺς γεωργούς καὶ δώσει τὸν ἀμπελῶνα ἄλλοις.
What therefore will the lord of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the farmers, and will give the vineyard to others.

Luke 12:37 μακάριοι οἱ δοῦλοι ἐκεῖνοι, οὓς ἐλθὼν ὁ κύριος εὑρήσει γρηγοροῦντας· ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν ὅτι περιζώσεται καὶ ἀνακλινεῖ αὐτοὺς καὶ παρελθὼν διακονήσει αὐτοῖς.
Blessed are those servants, whom the lord will find watching when he comes. Most certainly I tell you, that he will dress himself, and make them recline, and will come and serve them.

John 15:15 οὐκέτι λέγω ὑμᾶς δούλους, ὅτι ὁ δοῦλος οὐκ οἶδεν τί ποιεῖ αὐτοῦ ὁ κύριος· ὑμᾶς δὲ εἴρηκα φίλους, ὅτι πάντα ἃ ἤκουσα παρὰ τοῦ πατρός μου ἐγνώρισα ὑμῖν.
No longer do I call you servants, for the servant doesn't know what his lord does. But I have called you friends, for everything that I heard from my Father, I have made known to you.

these are just some of many.

im sorry locoman, but i just dont see how any of what you are saying is proof. there is no evidence of anyone changing that passage

Originally posted by miriam0566
we both know david in this instance is talking about 2 separate people, with out a doubt. but is jesus called Jehovah in any other scripture?

There are many reference to Jesus Christ, using the term YHWH.
Here is one.

Jer 23:5-6
(5) Behold, the days come, saith the YHWH, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch [a prophecy of Jesus Christ], and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute judgment and justice in he land.
(6) In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, The YHWH [This in reference to Christ] is our righteousness.

the branch is not jesus as prophet, it is the son of man, which jesus represented and was in a level after glorification before the cross.

the branch is the son of man.
the son of man are the prophets first, then all the rest marry into this and become all the son of man.

it means to become glorified you need to find god, not a prophet,
after glorification jesus was not jesus. When someone becomes full
in salvation, he gets the seal and it means he is one with the father,
it is a state that all people can obtain once. First the prophets as the first son of man,
later all the rest, in the end the son of man as prophets are all the appointed ones, and later all the rest joined into them, as one they are the father.

You have jesus as a son, in the same way david is a son of god.
And you have the son of man, the place new jerusalem, where
god glorified, and lives through persons as one.

Salvation as one means being one with the father, but in an acting role,
god plays in heaven through his different eyes (angels, souls) , which are
reperesented in joshua's stone with seven eyes. It means he can blind
himself partly to stay human even when that human is in salvation and
this means free, free to be one.

If a human obtains salvation on earth before the millenium it is always
to teach the world or to receive judgement from the world, it is to open
up freedom. That's why the sun and moon will be eclipsed.
They reperesent the prince and the king. and the prince becomes the king.



[edit on 18-10-2009 by pasttheclouds]

Originally posted by SirPaulMuaddib
There are many reference to Jesus Christ, using the term YHWH.
Here is one.


Jer 23:5-6
(5) Behold, the days come, saith the YHWH, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch [a prophecy of Jesus Christ], and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute judgment and justice in he land.

Yes It was Yahweh who said who would raise up/send Christ, and Christ and the Apostles always stated that Christ was raised up/sent by his Father.

(6) In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, The YHWH [This in reference to Christ] is our righteousness.

The phrase translated above as "The LORD our Righteousness" is....

H3072 - Yhovah tsidqenuw (ye-ho-vaw' tsid-kay'-noo) : from 3068 and 6664 with pronominal suffix; Jehovah (is) our right; Jehovah-Tsidkenu, a symbolical epithet of the Messiah and of Jerusalem:--the Lord our righteousness.

It is a name not unlike Elijah (God is Yahweh) or Joshua (Yahweh Saves), it is a title that glorifies God and is not saying that Jesus was Yahweh any more that the scriptures are saying that Elijah or Joshua were Yahweh. Again, it is a name that glorifies Yahweh, which is exactly was Christ did. He never glorified himself (which he could have done if he was in fact Yahweh), he always gave glory to his father for his word and works.

Yes there are scriptures like this could be twisted to say that Christ was Yahweh, but God's word doesn't contradict itself, and that belief (that Christ was Yahweh) can't be reconciled to the plainly stated scriptures that contradict this idea, which can't be twisted to mean anything else other than what is plainly stated, such as....

Hebrews 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made a high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, today have I begotten thee.
6 As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

The one who said both of these quotes was Yahweh, and Paul plainly states that Christ didn't glorify himself, or make himself High Priest, but Yahweh did, proving Christ wasn't Yahweh, but his Son.

Again....

HEBREWS 1:1 God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, through whom also he makes the age;

Paul states that the one speaking to the prophets in the Old Testament was Christ's Father, and it wasn't until their day that the Father began speaking to them through his Son.

[edit on 18/10/09 by doctorex]

Originally posted by SirPaulMuaddib
There are many reference to Jesus Christ, using the term YHWH.
Here is one.

Jer 23:5-6
(5) Behold, the days come, saith the YHWH, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch [a prophecy of Jesus Christ], and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute judgment and justice in he land.
(6) In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, The YHWH [This in reference to Christ] is our righteousness.

no, this passage is not one of them.

"Jehovah our Righteousness" is not Jehovah

it was quite common to name children with a name that means something.

ABIJAH אֲבִיָה m & f Biblical
Means "my father is Jehovah"

ELIJAH m English, Hebrew, Biblical
From the Hebrew name אֱלִיָּהוּ ('Eliyyahu) meaning "my God is Jehovah"

GEDALIAH גְּדַלְיָהוּ m Biblical
Means "Jehovah is great"

HANANIAH חֲנַנְיָה m Biblical
Means "Jehovah is gracious"

HEZEKIAH m Biblical
From the Hebrew name חִזְקִיָהוּ (Chizqiyahu), which means "Jehovah strengthens"

ISHMERAI יִשְׁמְרַי m Biblical
Means "Jehovah guards"

JEDIDIAH יְדִידְיָה m Biblical
Means "beloved of Jehovah"

JEHOIAKIM יְהוֹיָקִים m Biblical
Means "raised by Jehovah"

JOSHUA m English, Biblical
From the Hebrew name יְהוֹשֻׁעַ (Yehoshu'a) meaning "Jehovah is salvation"

etc etc etc


what im asking for is a scripture where Jesus is referred to as "Jehovah"

Originally posted by Locoman8
Elijah, the name translated "God is Yahweh" is a statement about who God is.
Joshua, the name translates "God is my salvation" .... not "God Saves" which is a more general term. "God is my salvation" is more direct as it states one's individual salvation for accepting God." God in this sense is translated "YHWH" and our saviour is constantly considered Jesus Christ in the New Testament. Funny, Jesus' hebrew name "Yeshua" actually is "Joshua" in english. His name means that "YHWH is my Savior" while Immanuel.. the old testament name for the messiah means "YHWH with us". Funny how the messiah is Jesus (Joshua) Christ and the messiah is considered to be "YHWH" among people.

These names glorify YHWH and mention the savior and messiah to be this YHWH. The Father's glory is within the messiah YHWH because the Family Spirit or Holy Spirit of Elohim dwells within this messiah God turned human.

first, you are assuming.

just because jesus is our "savior", your assuming that Jehovah cant be called our savior.

second, your spinning yourself in circles because of this assumption.

Jehovah is God's name, not title.

exodus 3:15 - And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, Jehovah, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name forever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

psalms 83:18 - That they may know that thou alone, whose name is Jehovah, Art the Most High over all the earth.

why would Jehovah, who is keenly interested in sanctifying his name, bestow that same name on his son?

what is there to gain from showing a second Jehovah?

all it adds is confusion, not to mention that im still not seeing anything that would convince to look into this any further

Originally posted by Locoman8
So the word Adonay, used in Psalm 110 refers only to God. Meaning there were two Gods speaking amongst each other. The NWT translates Adonay as Jehovah in many cases as well. Can you explain this?

verse 1 is לַֽאדֹנִ֗י (ladoni) which literally means "to my lord"

as for verse 5, 3 different reasons were so graciously provided by mr. muadib. ill quote it again

The present translation assumes that the psalmist here addresses the Lord as he celebrates what the king is able to accomplish while positioned at God’s “right hand.” According to this view the king is the subject of the third person verb forms in vv. 5b-7.

(2) Another option is to understand the king as the addressee (as in vv. 2-3). In this case “the Lord” is the subject of the third person verbs throughout vv. 5-7 and is depicted as a warrior in a very anthropomorphic manner. In this case the Lord is pictured as being at the psalmist’s right hand (just the opposite of v. 1). See Pss 16:8; 121:5. (3)

A third option is to revocalize אֲדֹנָי (’adonay, “Lord”) as אֲדֹנִי (’adoniy, “my lord”; see v. 1). In this case one may translate, “My lord, at his [God’s] right hand, strikes down.” In this case the king is the subject of the third person verbs in vv. 5b-7.

the point is, ANYTIME there is doubt about translation, context will help.

yes, the verse is obviously referring to jesus' heightened and glorified state. but does it really make any sense that Jehovah would be referring to another Jehovah?

2) First letter capitalised: Lord
To show where God’s exclusive title, Adonay is mentioned.
This title is only ever given to Yahweh. Never a man, angel or idol.

Strongs no. 136 'Adonay (ad-o-noy');

wrong. adonay is "master" or "lord" in plural form. when plural used in conjunction with singular pronouns, it is referring to a title of respect, particularly to Jehovah

ezra 10:[3] Now therefore let us make a covenant with our God to put away all the wives, and such as are born of them, according to the counsel of my lord, and of those that tremble at the commandment of our God; and let it be done according to the law.

136 adonay, used with respect but not referring to Jehovah

gen 19:[18] And Lot said unto them, Oh, not so, my Lord:

136 adonay, used in plural form. referring to the angels that pulled lot out of the city.

Even though this ancient Yahwistic adaptation of an earlier Canaanite Entrhonement Psalm says:

YHWH said to my lord (i.e. the King) sit here until I make your enemies your footstool !'

may have originally been used by the early Davids as part of their early coronation ceremonies, it was also interpreted in the later 2nd Temple period as a Messianic Psalm (with political overtones !) with the coming longawaited Warrior Messiah destroying the neighbouring gentile nations, especially since Palestine had been occupied by brutal foreign 'goyim' since BCE 722, first ASSYRIA, then BABYLON, then PERSIA, then GREECE then Rome ground Eretz Yisro'el to powder in 70CE during the 1st Failed Jewish Revolt against Rome...during which all these succcessive occupiers, there arose a Messianic Hope (like the Amerindian Death Dances were hoping to bring on a Deliverer who would destroy the White Man in the Americas &tc.)

Clearly the original words 'adonoi' (my lord) in the paleoHebrew meant 'my lord the king' after the Davids had been dethroned in BCE 587 with the Babylonian invasions, the term began to take on a Messianic and/or symbolic hidden 2nd meaning--since technically there was no Daviddic king on the throne after 587 BCE.

The earliest Nazorean Messianic (later called 'Christian') communities in Palestine were pinning their hopes on R. Yehoshua bar Yosef the Galilean 'Nazir' (Branch of David, see Zech 6:9, Behold the Man who is called the Nazir, he shall rebuild the Temple of YHWH') to overthrow the Romans in 36CE during Pesach, but after he armed his disciples with swords (see Luke 22:45-52) he was arrested and executed for armed sedition against Rome, a horrible way to die, that crucifixion thingy--specifically designed for armed seditionists who breach the Lex Maisestatis of the 'divine' Tiberius Caesar !

If there are two Jehovahs mentioned in this psalm, then what about the Holy Spirit? Isn't the Christian God a Trinity? Why would the psalm mention only two of the three?

Seems to me that according to Christian doctrine, if you want to posit "multiple" Jehovahs, you must either accept the Holy Trinity (three), or you wind up with polytheism...two alone leaves you a bit uncomfortably between these options, doesn't it?

That's doctrine created in wrong translating and misinterpretation,

the holy spirit is the truth you grow, the son, the child in you...

the biggest problems with understanding the bible is not understanding
similar meanings in different words...

forgiving for example is understanding...it is the same,
if you understand something, you don't accuse it anymore,
your position changes into empathy.