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Why Christ was NOT Yahweh of the Old testament

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posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 02:59 PM
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reply to post by Locoman8
 


no, it doesn't, it speak for the son of man, which are all prophets,
in revelation they are called the 144k.

christianity doesn't understand annointed and son of man.
judaism doesn't understand the son of man as one with god
when glorified
islam doesn't understand glorification fully, but does understand the oneness of god.




posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 10:05 PM
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Originally posted by SirPaulMuaddib
There are many, many proofs, that Christ existed and was the God of the OT, the NT explicitly tells you so, but apparently this is not enough for RW followers.



It should be noted that the God of the OT (whichever YHWH that would be...The Father or The Son), was MARRIED to Israel.



Jer 3:14

(14) Turn, O backsliding sons, says YHWH; for I am married to you
; and I will take you one from a city, and two from a family, and I will bring you to Zion.




This (hopefully) is theology 101. YHWH was married to Israel, and the OT covenant was the terms of the marital agreement.



But because Israel committed spiritual adultery with YHWH, by going after other gods, YHWH gave Israel a bill of divorce



Jer 3:8
(8) And I saw, when for all the causes for which backsliding Israel committed adultery, I sent her away and gave a bill of divorce to her, yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear, but she went and whored, she also.






YET....YHWH is prophesied to remarry (millennial prophecy)


Hos 2:16 And it shall be at that day, says YHWH, you shall call Me, My Husband, and shall no more call Me, My Baal.




Whether you want to consider this millennial marriage a new marriage or a re-marriage it does not matter.

There are only two rules whereby YHWH (since YHWH keeps His own commandments after all) can marry again (a new "wife), or re-marry (to the old "wife).

1) If the wife, while divorced, remained celibate. (see Jer 3:1)

2) Either the wife died (after which the husband can now marry), or the husband died (freeing the wife to marry)



Since Israel committed adultery with other gods, God can not marry or re-marry, under the first rule. God MUST remain "single" until rule #2, comes into play.

Since prophecy is emphatic, and God has promised that the nation of Israel would NOT cease to exist (if it did, a whole 1/3 of Bible prophecy concerning Israel would thus be invalidated, this would invalidate God's power to prophecy accurately). God CAN NOT REMARRY under the rules of the first half of rule #2.

Do you see where I'm headed yet?

The ONLY WAY to allow for a new marriage or a "re-marriage" is UPON THE DEATH OF THE HUSBAND.

The death of the husband, frees the wife to marry anew, it also allows *upon a resurrection from the dead* of the husband to also marry again!

So if the YHWH of Hos 2:16 is the Father, it would require THE FATHER TO LAY DOWN HIS LIFE AND DIE, in order to free himself from the marriage contract so that he can remarry again.



Clearly this will never happen.

It HAS however happened because the YHWH of Hos. 2:16 and the YHWH of Jer 3:14, IS JESUS CHRIST.



The bible talks about ONE MARRIAGE SUPPER , and that is the one with Jesus Christ and the new Spiritual Israel THE CHURCH.

This prophecy will be fulfilled in Christ.



You are forgetting to take this into account.....

1CORINTHIANS 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The vast majority of mankind, including Israel, will not be resurrected until AFTER the millennial reign of Christ, who hands the kingdom over to the FATHER.

[edit on 18/10/09 by doctorex]



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 10:12 PM
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Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by doctorex
 


They teach that YHWH is Christ indeed. This information I came upon is not contrary to what they teach.


Do they teach as Herbert Armstrong did that Yahweh is not referring to God the Father, or have they diverted from this?



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 10:21 PM
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Originally posted by SirPaulMuaddib
It should be noted that Jer 23:5-6, explicitly mentions TWO YHWHs (again only one Elohim).


Jer 23:5-6
(5) Behold, the days come, saith the YHWH, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute judgment and justice in he land.
(6) In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, The YHWH is our righteousness.



The YHWH in verse 5 mentions a Righteous Branch, and this Righteous Branch is referred to as YHWH in verse 6.
You can take two approaches to verse 5. If you want to take the position that in verse 5, Christ is prophesying about himself, this is certainly fine, and of course this view supports the pre-existence of Christ.

If you want to take the position that the YHWH in verse 5 is the Father, this is also fine, God the Father is referencing the YHWH (the Self Existent One, who divested His nature to become human) as a Righteous Branch and offspring of David. The point of this is, there is a explicit mention of TWO YHWHs.


As I pointed out in Locoman's thread....



(6) In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, YHWH is our righteousness.



The phrase translated above as "The LORD our Righteousness" is....

H3072 - Yhovah tsidqenuw (ye-ho-vaw' tsid-kay'-noo) : from 3068 and 6664 with pronominal suffix; Jehovah (is) our right; Jehovah-Tsidkenu, a symbolical epithet of the Messiah and of Jerusalem:--the Lord our righteousness.

It is a name not unlike Elijah (God is Yahweh) or Joshua (Yahweh Saves), it is a title that glorifies God and is not saying that Jesus was Yahweh any more that the scriptures are saying that Elijah or Joshua were Yahweh. Again, it is a name that glorifies Yahweh, which is exactly was Christ did. He never glorified himself (which he could have done if he was in fact Yahweh), he always gave glory to his father for his word and works.


The quote is not Christ prophesying about himself because Hebrews 1:1-2 plainly states that it was God the Father who spoke to the prophets of the old testament, and didn't speak through his son until they days of the Apostles.

Also, as I pointed out above, it doesn't explicitly state there were two Yahwehs, if it said "and this is his name whereby he shall be called, Yahweh", that would be a different story....but it doesn't.

Anyway, like I also said in Locoman's thread, this discussion is pointless, and God will correct us all soon enough.

[edit on 18/10/09 by doctorex]



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 01:21 AM
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Originally posted by doctorex

Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by doctorex
 


They teach that YHWH is Christ indeed. This information I came upon is not contrary to what they teach.


Do they teach as Herbert Armstrong did that Yahweh is not referring to God the Father, or have they diverted from this?


One thing to understand is the fact that YHWH was the only God known to ancient Israel. The messiah was believed to be a man born from another man and woman who would save Israel and restore the nation of God. Armstrong teaches that YHWH of the Old Testament is Jesus Christ who came to reveal the Father.... a diety unknown to Ancient Israel. As I stated before, the fact Jesus is represented as YHWH in Armstrong's teachings doesn't mean it isn't open to the possibilities of two YHWH's. I'm not saying that I'm 100% right either. I'm just throwing out the possibility. I do believe... as scripture points out... that Jesus existed with the Father before creation and was known as the Word of God.... a title I like to phrase as the "Spokesperson of the Family of God." If the Word (Christ) was spoken in the Old Testament through a burning bush, a voice from Mt. Sinai, Melchezedek the High Priest, seen in a vision to prophets, etc... it was Christ speaking on behalf of the Father thus making the claim of the Father speaking to the prophets just as accurate as saying Christ spoke to the prophets of old. The White House has a spokesperson who speaks on behalf of the president and cabinet of the white house. They are considered the words of the White House or president though a different person actually spoke them. They work together as one unit just as the "Elohim" works as One. Since I believe this way, the scenario of two YHWH's isn't that far-fetched to me. Thank you for the question. I enjoy answering questions that aren't rude in nature and are genuinely asked for information purposes. God bless you (whether it be Yahweh 'Father' or Yahwih 'Christ').



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 01:49 AM
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This is general information for everyone reading. After this, those who haven't, please visit my new thread on the "two Jehovah's of Psalm 110" in the "conspiracies in religions" forum for further information. God bless.

This comes from "Jesus Christ: The Real Story" by the United Church of God....



Jesus, the I AM
Perhaps the boldest claim Jesus made about His identity was the statement, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58). Translated into English, His statement may appear or sound confusing. But in the Aramaic or Hebrew language in which He spoke, He was making a claim that immediately led the people to try to stone Him for blasphemy.

What was going on here? Jesus was revealing His identity as the actual One whom the Jews knew as God in the Old Testament. He was saying in one breath that He existed before Abraham and that He was the same Being as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Anciently when the great God first revealed Himself to Moses in Exodus 3:13-14, Moses asked Him what His name was. "I AM WHO I AM," was the awesome reply. "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

Jesus clearly claimed to be this same Being—the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (verse 15).

"I AM" is related to the personal name for God in the Old Testament, the Hebrew name YHWH. When this name appears in our English Bibles, it is commonly rendered using small capital letters as LORD. It is transliterated as "Jehovah" in some Bible versions.

When Jesus made this startling statement, the Jews knew exactly what He meant. They picked up stones to kill Him because they thought He was guilty of blasphemy.

"I AM" and the related YHWH are the names of God that infer absolute timeless self-existence. Although impossible to translate accurately and directly into English, YHWH conveys meanings of "The Eternal One," "The One Who Always Exists" or "The One Who Was, Is and Always Will Be." These distinctions can apply only to God, whose existence is eternal and everlasting.

In Isaiah 42:8 this same Being says, "I am the LORD [YHWH], that is My name; and My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to carved images." A few chapters later He says: "Thus says the LORD [YHWH], the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the First and I am the Last; besides Me there is no God" (Isaiah 44:6).

To the Jews, there was no mistaking who Jesus claimed to be. He said He was the One the nation of Israel understood to be the one true God. By Jesus making claim to the name "I AM," He was saying that He was the God whom the Hebrews knew as YHWH. This name was considered so holy that a devout Jew would not pronounce it. This was a special name for God that can only refer to the one true God.

Dr. Norman Geisler, in his book Christian Apologetics, concludes: "In view of the fact that the Jehovah of the Jewish Old Testament would not give his name, honor, or glory to another, it is little wonder that the words and deeds of Jesus of Nazareth drew stones and cries of 'blasphemy' from first-century Jews. The very things that the Jehovah of the Old Testament claimed for himself Jesus of Nazareth also claimed" (2002, p. 331).

Jesus identified with YHWH
Dr. Geisler goes on to list some of the ways Jesus equated Himself with YHWH of the Old Testament. Let's notice some of these.

Jesus said of Himself, "I am the good shepherd" (John 10:11). David, in the first verse of the famous 23rd Psalm, declared that "The LORD [YHWH] is my shepherd." Jesus claimed to be judge of all men and nations (John 5:22, 27). Yet Joel 3:12 says the LORD [YHWH] "will sit to judge all ...nations."

Jesus said, "I am the light of the world" (John 8:12). Isaiah 60:19 says, "The LORD will be to you an everlasting light, and your God your glory." Also, David says in Psalm 27:1, "The LORD (YHWH) is my light."

Jesus asked in prayer that the Father would share His eternal glory: "O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was" (John 17:5). Yet Isaiah 42:8 says, "I am the LORD, that is My name; and My glory I will not give to another ."

Jesus spoke of Himself as the coming bridegroom (Matthew 25:1), which is how YHWH is characterized in Isaiah 62:5 and Hosea 2:16.

In Revelation 1:17 Jesus says He is the first and the last, which is identical to what YHWH says of Himself in Isaiah 44:6: "I am the First and I am the Last."

There is no question that Jesus understood Himself as the LORD (YHWH) of the Old Testament.

When Jesus was arrested, His use of the same term had an electrifying effect on those in the arresting party. "Now when He said to them, 'I am He,' they drew back and fell to the ground" (John 18:6). Notice here that "He" is in italics, meaning the word was added by the translators and isn't in the original wording. However, their attempt to make Jesus' answer more grammatically correct obscures the fact that He was likely again claiming to be the "I AM" of the Old Testament Scriptures.


"I and My Father are one"
The Jews confronted Jesus on another occasion, asking Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If you are the Christ [the prophesied Messiah], tell us plainly" (John 10:24). Jesus' answer is quite revealing: "I told you, and you do not believe" (verse 25). He had indeed confirmed His divine identity on a previous occasion (John 5:17-18).

Jesus adds, "The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me" (John 10:25). The works He did were miracles that only God could do. They could not refute the miraculous works Jesus did.

He made another statement that incensed them: "I and My Father are one" (verse 30). That is, the Father and Jesus were both divine. Again, there was no mistaking the intent of what He said, because "then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him" (verse 31).

Jesus countered, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?" The Jews responded, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God" (verses 32-33).

The Jews understood perfectly well what Jesus meant. He was telling them plainly of His divinity.

The Gospel of John records yet another instance in which Jesus infuriated the Jews with His claims of divinity. It happened just after Jesus had healed a crippled man at the pool of Bethesda on the Sabbath. The Jews sought to kill Him because He did this on the Sabbath, a day on which the law of God had stated no work was to be done (which they misinterpreted to include what Jesus was doing).

Jesus then made a statement that the Jews could take in only one way: "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working." Their response to His words? "Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath [according to their interpretation of it], but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God" (John 5:16-18).

Jesus was equating His works with God's works and claiming God as His Father in a special way.

Jesus claimed authority to forgive sins
Jesus claimed to be divine in various other ways.

When Jesus healed one paralyzed man, He also said to him, "Son, your sins are forgiven you" (Mark 2:5). The scribes who heard this reasoned He was blaspheming, because, as they rightly understood and asked, "Who can forgive sins but God alone?" (verses 6-7).

Responding to the scribes, Jesus said: "Why do you raise such questions in your hearts?...But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"—He said to the paralytic—"I say to you, stand up, take your mat and go to your home" (verses 8-11, NRSV).

The scribes knew Jesus was claiming an authority that belonged to God only. Again, the LORD (YHWH) is the One pictured in the Old Testament who forgives sin (Jeremiah 31:34).

Christ claimed power to raise the dead
Jesus claimed yet another power that God alone possessed—to raise and judge the dead. Notice His statements in John 5:25-29:

"Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live...All who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

There was no doubt about what He meant. He added in verse 21,"For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will." When Jesus resurrected Lazarus from the dead, He said to Lazarus' sister, Martha, "I am the resurrection and the life" (John 11:25).

Compare this to 1 Samuel 2:6, which tells us that "the LORD [YHWH] kills and makes alive; He brings down to the grave and brings up."



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 01:58 AM
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Jesus accepted honor and worship
Jesus demonstrated His divinity in yet another way when He said, "All should honor the Son just as they honor the Father" (John 5:23). Over and over, Jesus told His disciples to believe in Him as they would believe in God. "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me" (John 14:1).

Jesus received worship on many occasions without forbidding such acts. A leper worshipped Him (Matthew 8:2). A ruler worshipped Him with his plea to raise his daughter from the dead (Matthew 9:18). When Jesus had stilled the storm, those in the boat worshipped Him as the Son of God (Matthew 14:33).

A Canaanite woman worshipped Him (Matthew 15:25). When Jesus met the women who came to His tomb after His resurrection, they worshipped Him, as did His apostles (Matthew 28:9, 17). The demon-possessed man of the Gadarenes, "when He saw Jesus from afar ...ran and worshiped Him" (Mark 5:6). The blind man whom Jesus healed in John 9 worshipped Him (verse 38).

The First and Second of the Ten Commandments forbid worship of anyone or anything other than God (Exodus 20:2-5). Barnabas and Paul were very disturbed when the people of Lystra tried to worship them after their healing of a crippled man (Acts 14:13-15). In Revelation 22:8-9, when John the apostle fell down to worship the angel, the angel refused to accept worship, saying, "You must not do that!...Worship God!" (Revelation 22:8-9, NRSV).

Yet Jesus accepted worship and did not rebuke those who chose to kneel before Him and worship.

Jesus' instruction to pray in His name
Jesus not only tells His followers to believe in Him, but that when we pray to the Father, we are to pray in Christ's name. "And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son" (John 14:13). Jesus made it clear that access to the Father is through Him, telling us that "no one comes to the Father except through Me" (verse 6).

The apostle Paul states of Jesus: "Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Philippians 2:9-11).

Paul is telling us that God the Father Himself is upholding the fact that Jesus is God, by exalting His name to the level of the One through whom we make our requests and the One before whom we bow. Jesus also assures us that He will be the One who will give the answer to our prayers ("...that I will do," John 14:13).

In so many ways Jesus revealed Himself as the God of the Old Testament. The Jews saw Him do many things that only God would or could do. They heard Him say things about Himself that could only apply to God. They were angered and responded with outrage and charged Him with blasphemy. They were so infuriated by His claims that they wanted to kill Him on the spot.

Jesus' special relationship with God
Jesus understood Himself to be unique in His close relationship with the Father in that He was the only One who could reveal the Father. "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him" (Matthew 11:27).

Dr. William Lane Craig, an apologist writing in defense of Christian belief, says this verse "tells us that Jesus claimed to be the Son of God in an exclusive and absolute sense. Jesus says here that his relationship of sonship to God is unique. And he also claims to be the only one who can reveal the Father to men. In other words, Jesus claims to be the absolute revelation of God" (Reasonable Faith, 1994, p. 246).

Christ's claims to hold people's eternal destiny
On several occasions Jesus asserted that He was the One through whom men and women could attain eternal life. "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40; compare verses 47 and 54). He not only says that people must believe in Him, but also that He will be the One to resurrect them at the end. No mere man can take this role.

Dr. Craig adds: "Jesus held that people's attitudes toward himself would be the determining factor in God's judgment on the judgment day. 'Also I say to you, whoever confesses Me before men, him the Son of Man also will confess before the angels of God. But he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God' (Luke 12:8-9).

"Make no mistake: if Jesus were not the divine son of God, then this claim could only be regarded as the most narrow and objectionable dogmatism. For Jesus is saying that people's salvation depends on their confession to Jesus himself" (Craig, p. 251).

The conclusion is inescapable: Jesus understood Himself as divine along with the Father and as possessing the right to do things only God has the right to do.

The claim of Jesus' disciples
Those who personally knew and were taught by Jesus, and who then wrote most of the New Testament, are thoroughly consistent with Jesus' statements about Himself. His disciples were monotheistic Jews. For them to agree that Jesus was God, and then to give their lives for this belief, tells us that they had come to see for themselves that the claims Jesus made about Himself were so convincing as to leave no doubt in their minds.

The first Gospel writer, Matthew, opens with the story of the virgin birth of Jesus. Matthew comments on this miraculous event with the quote from Isaiah 7:14, "'Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,' which is translated, 'God with us'" (Matthew 1:23). Matthew is making it clear that he understands that this child is God—"God with us."

John is likewise explicit in the prologue to his Gospel. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ...And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us" (John 1:1, 14).

Some of them called Him God directly. When Thomas saw His wounds, he exclaimed, "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28). Paul refers to Jesus in Titus 1:3 and 2:10 as "God our Savior."

The book of Hebrews is most emphatic that Jesus is God. Hebrews 1:8, applying Psalm 45:6 to Jesus Christ, states: "But to the Son He says: 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.'" Other parts of this book explain that Jesus is higher than the angels (1:4-8, 13), superior to Moses (3:1-6), and greater than the high priests (4:14-5:10). He is greater than all these because He is God.

He left us no middle ground
The renowned Christian writer C.S. Lewis observes: "I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher ...

"You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to" (Mere Christianity, 1996, p. 56).

Jesus Christ: 'The Rock' of the Old Testament
The apostle Paul affirms that the God the Israelites of the Old Testament knew—the One they looked to as their "Rock" of strength (see Deuteronomy 32:4; Psalm 18:2)—was the One we know as Jesus Christ. Notice what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4: "All our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ."

Jesus was the One who spoke to Moses and told Him to return to Egypt to bring the Israelites to freedom. Jesus was the LORD (YHWH) who caused the plagues to come on Egypt. He was the God who led the Israelites out of Egypt and through the wanderings for 40 years. He was the Lawgiver who gave the laws to Moses and spoke to Moses on a regular basis. He was the LORD who dealt with Israel throughout their national history.

Yes, astounding as it seems, Jesus Christ is the LORD (YHWH) spoken of so often in the Old Testament.

Jesus Christ's Disciples Understood Him to Be the Creator
The book of Hebrews speaks of the Son as the Being through whom God created the worlds (Hebrews 1:2) and who "sustains all things by his powerful word" (verse 3, NRSV). Only God is great enough to do such things.

John confirms that Jesus was the divine Word through whom God created the universe: "All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made" (John 1:3; see verses 1-3, 14).

Paul states quite clearly that "God ...created all things through Jesus Christ" (Ephesians 3:9). He elsewhere writes of Jesus: "For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him" (Colossians 1:16). He adds in verse 17, "and in Him all things consist."

The Old Testament presents God alone as Creator of the universe (Genesis 1:1; Isaiah 40:25-26, 28). When the early followers of Christ say Jesus is the One through whom all things were created, they are clearly saying that Jesus is God.



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 02:19 AM
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There are no scriptures that say Christ did the physical creating, and there are no Scriptures stating that the Apostles believed this. They are simply translated that way because that is what the translators believed. The creation is not finished, it has only just begun. The physical creation and the angelic realm was done by God the Father, the spiritual creation (the family of God) that is done through (translated as "by") Christ because of his sacrifice and is still ongoing, this is the "let us make man in our image" of Genesis, it is a prophecy of God the Father. All the scriptures that state things like "by Christ he made the worlds" is actually saying "through Christ he makes the age to come", it is spiritual, not physical. But like I said, this is going nowhere.

[edit on 19/10/09 by doctorex]



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 02:35 AM
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reply to post by doctorex
 


Basically, your reasoning around anything I give you. Because of your "hard-set" beliefs, you just pass away things like "all things were created through Christ" as prophetic? I mean no offense but RW really has you brainwashed dude! That, among other things, is the weakest comeback by you to me.... especially after all the points made in my previous posts.

Take advise from the rock band "Hoobastank"

I found a reason for me
To change who I use to be
A reason to start over new
And the reason is YOU.


The song starts out, I'm not a perfect person... which no one is. Keep that in mind my friend.



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 02:50 AM
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reply to post by doctorex
 


Explain this for me please Doctor X-pert! Is that what the X is in your name?


"He, who had always been God by nature, did not cling to his privileges as God's equal." Instead He "stripped himself of every advantage by consenting to be a slave by nature and being born a man he humbled himself by living a life of utter obedience, to the point of death, and the death he died was the death of a common criminal" (Phillippians 2 verses 6-8, NTME).



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 03:20 AM
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reply to post by Locoman8
 


Has it ever occured to you that maybe you are the one with "hard-set" beliefs, and that maybe you are wrong? I'm am not brainwashed. Everything I believe can be backed up with scripture. If you believe that there are scriptures stating that Christ did the creating, lay them out, and I will happily debunk each and every last one of them, and leave nothing contradicting, such as the many contradictions plain in your beliefs.

[edit on 19/10/09 by doctorex]



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 03:46 AM
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Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by doctorex
 


Explain this for me please Doctor X-pert! Is that what the X is in your name?


Why are you getting hostile locoman?



"He, who had always been God by nature, did not cling to his privileges as God's equal." Instead He "stripped himself of every advantage by consenting to be a slave by nature and being born a man he humbled himself by living a life of utter obedience, to the point of death, and the death he died was the death of a common criminal" (Phillippians 2 verses 6-8, NTME).


IN the greek it says

verse1
Who in form (shape/nature) of God being-inherently (to live/exist/behave) not pillaging deems-it to equal (agree/like/similar) to-God.

verse2
but nevertheless himself empties (to abase/of no reputation) form of-slave (subserviency/servent) getting (to recieve/obtain/have) in likeness of-human becoming (be-made) and a-figure being-found as human

verse 3
he-humbles himself becoming obedient unto death, death even of-pale

This does not say, he was always God by nature, and himself took on the form of a humans, that is simply how it was translated by translators who believed he always existed.

It could also be translated:

Who in likeness of God he lived, not thinking it robbery to be deemed like God, nevertheless he abased himself, receiving a likeness of a human in being made, and fashioned as a human, and being found in the fashion of a human, he humbled himself becoming obedient unto death, death even on the stake.

It is just as well saying that of all people on Earth, Jesus Christ had a right to lift himself up above all, since he was the son of God, but he didn't, he humbled himself, even to the point of dying a horrific death.

Since I have taken the time to explain something, would you please explain to me why Paul stated that Christ Glorified not himself, but that it was Yahweh?

You may say, oh that time it was God the Father speaking, but other times it was Christ, but that only confuses things, since how do you know who is speaking in what instance if both were Yahweh (and God says he is not the author of confusion) and that also doesn't clear up why Paul also stated that it was God the Father who spoke to the Prophets of the old testament, not Christ.

EDIT: ah, you know what locoman, forget it. This is getting WAY to pointless, and a great waste of time. Also, you are beginning to show your frustration by again starting with the personal attacks. God will clear everything up soon enough. Take care.

Oh, and if you still think Ron Weinland is a false prophet, how do you explain this perfection.....

www.cog-pkg.org...

[edit on 19/10/09 by doctorex]



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 06:51 AM
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reply to post by doctorex
 


I wasn't getting hostle. I was being sarcastically funny. Apparantly, humor is only for the lighthearted.

The Apostle John makes it clear that the One who became Jesus Christ existed from eternity: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made” (John 1:1–3).
Here John points out that the Word—the Logos or Spokesman—had been with God from the beginning. He was the creative agent—acting for God the Father in making everything that is. Later: “He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name” (vv. 10–12).
In several scriptures the inspired Apostle Paul makes the same point. In Colossians 1:15–16, Paul speaks of Jesus Christ: “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.” And the book of Hebrews tells us that God, “has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds” (Hebrews 1:2). And again, “But to the Son He says: ‘Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom’” (v. 8). And finally, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands” (v. 10).
Note that in verse 8 above, Christ is addressed, “O God.” He is described as the One who “made the worlds” (v. 2) and who “laid the foundation of the earth” (v. 10). There is absolutely no indication that any of these verses written by Paul or by John were “poetic” or metaphorical! They simply state the fact that the Personality who became Jesus Christ was “in the beginning” with the Father, that He was the “Word” or Spokesman for the Father and that all things were directly created through Him, Jesus Christ!
How did all this come about?
Turning to Genesis 1:1, we read, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” All scholars know that the Hebrew word here translated God is “Elohim,” a plural noun—like church or family—as would signify one family with several members. And now notice Genesis 1:26, “Then God said, ‘Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.’”
Note that God said, “Let Us make man in Our image.” So the Father and the Logos or “Word”—who later was born as Jesus of Nazareth—were both included here. Acting for the One we call God the “Father,” the One who became Jesus Christ was used by the Father from the beginning in dealing with mankind.
We see this also in Genesis 18. Here the Logos appeared to Abraham. He did not appear in His full glory in dealing with Abraham, Moses and others, but more in human form—yet apparently with a “difference” so that Abraham recognized that he was dealing with the “Lord” (vv. 3, 27). After the Eternal had explained to Abraham His intent to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah because of their perverted sins, Abraham asked, “Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?” (v. 25).
Here Abraham was certainly dealing with the One who became Jesus Christ! For Christ Himself revealed later, “For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son” (John 5:22). Abraham was certainly not dealing with God the Father. For the inspired Word also tells us, “No one has seen God at any time” (John 1:18).
Jesus Himself said: “‘Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.’ Then the Jews said to Him, ‘You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?’ Jesus said to them, ‘Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM’” (John 8:56–58). The Jews recognized that the expression “I AM” referred to the God of Israel. They thought that Jesus was both lying and blaspheming. So “then they took up stones to throw at Him” (v. 59). These Jews were blinded to the fact that Jesus had been the very Personality who had been the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel! They were standing right there talking to the One who was their God! And they did not know it.

In Matthew 22:42–45, Jesus challenged the religious leaders: “‘What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?’ They said to Him, ‘The Son of David.’ He said to them, ‘How then does David in the Spirit call Him “Lord,” saying: “The Lord said to my Lord, ‘Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool’”? If David then calls Him “Lord,” how is He his Son?’” The Pharisees were not able to answer. For they knew that King David of Israel certainly had no human “lord.” This scripture had to be describing two personalities in God’s Family—one greater than the other. And, as should be obvious to us, David’s immediate “Lord”—the one who later became Jesus of Nazareth—was told to sit at the right hand of the Father until it was time for Him to become King of kings.
Yet the Jews knew that the coming Messiah was to be a literal “son of David.” How could this one also be David’s “Lord” yet having a still “greater” Lord telling Him what to do?
In 1 Corinthians 10:1–4, we read that ancient Israel was baptized into Moses and they all “ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.” Again, it is clear—as a number of commentaries acknowledge—that the same Spirit Personality who dealt with ancient Israel was the One who became Christ. For, as we have seen, Jesus said that “no one” had ever seen “God”—obviously meaning the One we call the Father. Yet right after giving the Ten Commandments and some of the statutes to ancient Israel, we find that the “God of Israel” did indeed appear to some of Israel’s leaders! “Then Moses went up, also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity. But on the nobles of the children of Israel He did not lay His hand. So they saw God, and they ate and drank” (Exodus 24:9–11). So more than 70 of the leaders of Israel “saw the God of Israel.” Could anything be more clear?
It was the One who became Jesus Christ who literally walked and talked with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. He was the One who dealt directly with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He was the One who spoke “face to face” with Moses (Numbers 12:8). He was the One who spoke the Ten Commandments from the top of Mount Sinai!

Peace.



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 09:07 AM
link   

Originally posted by doctorex
You are forgetting to take this into account.....

1CORINTHIANS 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The vast majority of mankind, including Israel, will not be resurrected until AFTER the millennial reign of Christ, who hands the kingdom over to the FATHER.

[edit on 18/10/09 by doctorex]


Nothing in the passage you quote mentions anything about a marriage. It does not mention a groom or bride.

The bible only discusses one marriage, that between Christ and the Church.
"Who" is God the Father going to marry? Is Christ going to divorce the Church and give her as bride to the Father? Is God the Father going to have one bride? And Christ the Son another bride? You would think, that if God the Father was going to be married, the bible would mention it. Not a single verse, even hints at this. The only marriage the bible mentions is between Christ and the Church.

It should be noted, also, since you seem to misunderstand the nature of death. Is that when a person dies, all of him dies. The nose does not live on, the hand does not live on, the foot does not live on. The entire person dies.
So that for the "bride" (Israel) to be considered dead (as you seem to imply when you say "Israel, will not be resurrected ") the WHOLE NATION must be wiped out completely to the last man. If you could show that the whole nation of Israel was wiped out leaving no nose/hand/foot etc...alive, in other words with no single man or descendant alive at the beginning/middle/end of the millennium you might have a point.

But alas, this would break a whole host of prophecies. It should be noted that Israel calls YHWH Husband DURING THE MILLENIUM. It does so, by repenting/being baptized and receiving the Holy Spirit and JOINING the Spriritual Churh/Israel. In other words Christ does not marry multiple brides (Church / Nation of Israel), He marrys ONE Bride. The nation of Israel becomes part of that ONE Bride through conversion.



[edit on 19-10-2009 by SirPaulMuaddib_2]



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 03:20 PM
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reply to post by Locoman8
 


Every single point you made can and will be Debunked as soon as you explain why paul stated that christ didnt glorify himself but that is was the one speaking in the old testament.



posted on Oct, 20 2009 @ 03:33 AM
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reply to post by Locoman8
 


Even though you haven’t yet addressed my points, I’ll take the time to address yours...


The Apostle John makes it clear that the One who became Jesus Christ existed from eternity: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made” (John 1:1–3).

Here John points out that the Word—the Logos or Spokesman—had been with God from the beginning. He was the creative agent—acting for God the Father in making everything that is.


The word translated as "with" doesn't exactly mean that, if that was what John was trying to say, he could have used a far more accurate word, meta, which means what the translators are trying to imply here, but John didn't use that word, he used "pros". The word logos doesn't mean spokesman, it means....

3056 - logos (log'-os) : from 3004; something said (including the thought); by implication, a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension, a computation; specially, (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ):--account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say(-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.

The Logos of God is his revelatory thought, his works, his reasoning, his sayings. This is why John 1 says the word (logos) was "pros" (meaning toward, unto, because of, pointing to) God, God's word reveals God, it is God, his nature, his mind, his reasoning. The first verses of John are speaking purely of God. Christ was the word of God made flesh. God dwelt in him, worked through him, spoke through him, through his spirit, through his Son. Christ plainly stated this many times himself.



Later: “He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name” (vv. 10–12).


Look into the word translated as “by” (as in the world was made by him). It is “dia”, and I’ll address it soon..



In several scriptures the inspired Apostle Paul makes the same point. In Colossians 1:15–16, Paul speaks of Jesus Christ: “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.”


You know what God is creating Locoman, He is creating a family, and Christ was the firstborn into that creation, his family, he is the firstborn son, it is through Christ that God continues this creation. Now read verse 16 in the Greek. It doesn't say all things were created "by" him. It says all things were created "en" (G1722) him. This word has many meanings, including before, because of, for the sake of. The end of the verse says all things were created "dia" (G1223) him. This word has similar meanings, such as for the cause of, by reason of, for the sake of, because of. This verse does not say Christ did the actual creating, it is only translated that way by people who believed such.


And the book of Hebrews tells us that God, “has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds” (Hebrews 1:2).


I'll add the part you skipped shall I.

HEBREWS 1:1 God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Yes this verse states quite plainly that God the Father spoke to the prophets of the old testament, and only in the days of the Apostles spoke through his Son. At the end of the verse it says "through (same word "dia, because of, by reason of, but also through) whom he makes the "eons" (G165), not the physical worlds.

G165 - aion (ahee-ohn') : from the same as 104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):--age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end). Compare 5550.

It is through, because of, by reason of, Christ that God creates the ages to come. Again this verse doesn't say Christ created the physical universe, yet proves that it was God the Father who spoke throughout the Old Testament.



And again, “But to the Son He says: ‘Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom’” (v. 8).


Yes, Christ is now Elohim, and he will return as King of Kings and rule forever.


And finally, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands” (v. 10). Note that in verse 8 above, Christ is addressed, “O God.” He is described as the One who “made the worlds” (v. 2) and who “laid the foundation of the earth” (v. 10).



You skipped out verse 9, where it changes gears from talking about Christ the son, to God the Father, and continues to talk about God the Father until the end of the Chapter. Notice....

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?




Turning to Genesis 1:1, we read, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” All scholars know that the Hebrew word here translated God is “Elohim,” a plural noun—like church or family—as would signify one family with several members. And now notice Genesis 1:26, “Then God said, ‘Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.’”
Note that God said, “Let Us make man in Our image.” So the Father and the Logos or “Word”—who later was born as Jesus of Nazareth—were both included here. Acting for the One we call God the “Father,” the One who became Jesus Christ was used by the Father from the beginning in dealing with mankind.


Been over this before, it is a prophecy of what God would do to man through his Son. Christ was predestined before the foundation of the Earth (1Pet 1:20). Why was he predestined, foreseen, if he was already in existence? Doesn't make sense, does it? Does somebody foresee something after it has already happened? No, they don’t.

[edit on 20/10/09 by doctorex]



posted on Oct, 20 2009 @ 03:35 AM
link   
Even though you haven’t yet addressed my points, I’ll take the time to address yours...


The Apostle John makes it clear that the One who became Jesus Christ existed from eternity: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made” (John 1:1–3).

Here John points out that the Word—the Logos or Spokesman—had been with God from the beginning. He was the creative agent—acting for God the Father in making everything that is.


The word translated as "with" doesn't exactly mean that, if that was what John was trying to say, he could have used a far more accurate word, meta, which means what the translators are trying to imply here, but John didn't use that word, he used "pros". The word logos doesn't mean spokesman, it means....

3056 - logos (log'-os) : from 3004; something said (including the thought); by implication, a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension, a computation; specially, (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ):--account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say(-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.

The Logos of God is his revelatory thought, his works, his reasoning, his sayings. This is why John 1 says the word (logos) was "pros" (meaning toward, unto, because of, pointing to) God, God's word reveals God, it is God, his nature, his mind, his reasoning. The first verses of John are speaking purely of God. Christ was the word of God made flesh. God dwelt in him, worked through him, spoke through him, through his spirit, through his Son. Christ plainly stated this many times himself.



Later: “He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name” (vv. 10–12).


Again, this is still speaking of God the Father.



In several scriptures the inspired Apostle Paul makes the same point. In Colossians 1:15–16, Paul speaks of Jesus Christ: “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.”


You know what God is creating Locoman, He is creating a family, and Christ was the firstborn into that creation, his family, he is the firstborn son, it is through Christ that God continues this creation. Now read verse 16 in the Greek. It doesn't say all things were created "by" him. It says all things were created "en" (G1722) him. This word has many meanings, including before, because of, for the sake of. The end of the verse says all things were created "dia" (G1223) him. This word has similar meanings, such as for the cause of, by reason of, for the sake of, because of. This verse does not say Christ did the actual creating, it is only translated that way by people who believed such.


And the book of Hebrews tells us that God, “has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds” (Hebrews 1:2).


I'll add the part you skipped shall I.

HEBREWS 1:1 God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Yes this verse states quite plainly that God the Father spoke to the prophets of the old testament, and only in the days of the Apostles spoke through his Son. At the end of the verse it says "through (same word "dia, because of, by reason of, but also through) whom he makes the "eons" (G165), not the physical worlds.

G165 - aion (ahee-ohn') : from the same as 104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):--age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end). Compare 5550.

It is through, because of, by reason of, Christ that God creates the ages to come. Again this verse doesn't say Christ created the physical universe, yet proves that it was God the Father who spoke throughout the Old Testament.



And again, “But to the Son He says: ‘Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom’” (v. 8).


Yes, Christ is now Elohim, and he will return as King of Kings and rule forever.


And finally, “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands” (v. 10). Note that in verse 8 above, Christ is addressed, “O God.” He is described as the One who “made the worlds” (v. 2) and who “laid the foundation of the earth” (v. 10).



You skipped out verse 9, where it changes gears from talking about Christ the son, to God the Father, and continues to talk about God the Father until the end of the Chapter. Notice....

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?




Turning to Genesis 1:1, we read, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” All scholars know that the Hebrew word here translated God is “Elohim,” a plural noun—like church or family—as would signify one family with several members. And now notice Genesis 1:26, “Then God said, ‘Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.’”
Note that God said, “Let Us make man in Our image.” So the Father and the Logos or “Word”—who later was born as Jesus of Nazareth—were both included here. Acting for the One we call God the “Father,” the One who became Jesus Christ was used by the Father from the beginning in dealing with mankind.


Been over this before, it is a prophecy of what God would do to man through his Son. Christ was predestined before the foundation of the Earth (1Pet 1:20). Why was he predestined, foreseen, if he was already in existence? Doesn't make sense, does it? Does somebody foresee something after it has already happened? No, they don’t.


We see this also in Genesis 18. Here the Logos appeared to Abraham. He did not appear in His full glory in dealing with Abraham, Moses and others, but more in human form—yet apparently with a “difference” so that Abraham recognized that he was dealing with the “Lord” (vv. 3, 27). After the Eternal had explained to Abraham His intent to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah because of their perverted sins, Abraham asked, “Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?” (v. 25).
Here Abraham was certainly dealing with the One who became Jesus Christ! For Christ Himself revealed later, “For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son” (John 5:22). Abraham was certainly not dealing with God the Father. For the inspired Word also tells us, “No one has seen God at any time” (John 1:18).

Jesus Himself said: “‘Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.’ Then the Jews said to Him, ‘You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?’ Jesus said to them, ‘Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM’” (John 8:56–58). The Jews recognized that the expression “I AM” referred to the God of Israel. They thought that Jesus was both lying and blaspheming. So “then they took up stones to throw at Him” (v. 59). These Jews were blinded to the fact that Jesus had been the very Personality who had been the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel! They were standing right there talking to the One who was their God! And they did not know it.


No, it was a physical manifestation God the Father used to speak to Abraham. Abraham didn't see physically Christ's day did he? He was long dead. It was revealed to him through the prophecy of the seed that would bless all nations. This is what Abraham rejoiced about. Nobody has seen God at any time, because God, in all his brilliance, is spirit, unseen to physical flesh. What has been seen is only physical manifestations. Yes it is Christ who will judge the world, but if you scrolled down a few more verses you would have seen this....

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

In a sense God still is the judge, he has simply placed this in the hands of his Son, because he knows the Son will do his will anyway.

Christ was the word of God made flesh, and he himself stated many times that much of what he spoke came directly from the Father, so for Christ to say "I am", doesn't really raise my eyebrows. Yet, Christ used those words (I am) before in that passage (v 28) and they didn't raise stones, it was because of what he was saying in that sentence they raised stones. Read this previous passage...

John 8:25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

The word of God is a surety, even things that haven't come to pass yet, they are as good as done, just as God knew Jeremiah before he was in his mother's belly.



In Matthew 22:42–45, Jesus challenged the religious leaders: “‘What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?’ They said to Him, ‘The Son of David.’ He said to them, ‘How then does David in the Spirit call Him “Lord,” saying: “The Lord said to my Lord, ‘Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool’”? If David then calls Him “Lord,” how is He his Son?’” The Pharisees were not able to answer. For they knew that King David of Israel certainly had no human “lord.” This scripture had to be describing two personalities in God’s Family—one greater than the other. And, as should be obvious to us, David’s immediate “Lord”—the one who later became Jesus of Nazareth—was told to sit at the right hand of the Father until it was time for Him to become King of kings. Yet the Jews knew that the coming Messiah was to be a literal “son of David.” How could this one also be David’s “Lord” yet having a still “greater” Lord telling Him what to do?


The whole verse is a prophecy that wouldn't take place until well after the death of David, and the answers to your questions are self-evident. Christ is above David, but under God the Father. It's quite simple really.


In 1 Corinthians 10:1–4, we read that ancient Israel was baptized into Moses and they all “ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.”


Yes, they partook of the Passover etc, they partook of the mana, both physical symbols of the spiritual, for something that was to follow, Christ.

Again, it is clear—as a number of commentaries acknowledge—that the same Spirit Personality who dealt with ancient Israel was the One who became Christ.


The day I trust what is written in a commentary is the day I eat my hat.


For, as we have seen, Jesus said that “no one” had ever seen “God”—obviously meaning the One we call the Father. Yet right after giving the Ten Commandments and some of the statutes to ancient Israel, we find that the “God of Israel” did indeed appear to some of Israel’s leaders! “Then Moses went up, also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity. But on the nobles of the children of Israel He did not lay His hand. So they saw God, and they ate and drank” (Exodus 24:9–11). So more than 70 of the leaders of Israel “saw the God of Israel.” Could anything be more clear?


As I have explained, what they saw were purely manifestations, they did not see the spirit of God, nobody has, physically. Paul pointed out that it was the God the Father who spoke to their Fathers. The God the prophets and patriarchs etc that spoke to God spoke to was Yahweh, who was the “God of our fathers,” and this was the God who sent Christ, who raised Christ from the dead etc..
Acts 3:13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
1Chronicles 29:18 O LORD (Yahweh) God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, our fathers, keep this forever in the imagination of the thoughts of the heart of thy people, and prepare their heart unto thee:


It was the One who became Jesus Christ who literally walked and talked with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. He was the One who dealt directly with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He was the One who spoke “face to face” with Moses (Numbers 12:8). He was the One who spoke the Ten Commandments from the top of Mount Sinai!


No, Hebrews 1:1 pointed out clearly that was God the Father.



posted on Oct, 20 2009 @ 06:47 AM
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You do realize, that Ronald Weinland is simply teaching a perverted version of the Trinity doctrine don't you? If "The Word" is the revelatory thought of God and was God, then this is simply a perverted version of the Trinity doctrine




(re Heb 1:1)
Yes this verse states quite plainly that God the Father spoke to the prophets of the old testament, and only in the days of the Apostles spoke through his Son.


You simply have not read the verse. You are reading the verse through a filter. If you had read the verse you would have recognized something important.

It DOES NOT SAY God spoke to either the fathers OR the prophets.
It says he spoke to the fathers THROUGH(by) the prophets.
There is a monumental difference.

Heb 1:1 God, who at many times and in many ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,



posted on Oct, 20 2009 @ 07:25 AM
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5. Through faith Enoch passed on and did not taste death, and he was not to be found, because God had moved him away. For before he had passed on, there had been the testimony, that he had glorified God.

How can Christians see Jesus the person as the only son,
when Enoch was said to have glorified god ?

Jesus spoke from the promised land after glorification,
which means being one, the place where enoch belongs,
and moses and also modern day prophets, they together
are the only son, the son of man, which will includes in
a later stage everyone who will be saved.

the prophets glorify god as the son of man,
they are the son of man, and it is the son of man,
that passes wisdom to men, because in them destiny
is made and build... right now their message is,
you can find god in yourself, by yourself,
but it is a message that came through them first,
allready hidden in moses law...repeated by jesus,
repeated in the quran.

Elohim is not to be understood if you do not find
the son of man, and it's levels..the symbols have
levels... when time (paradise/millen) comes to an end, the son of man
will have found a full woman (all the others), which become, and they will
have a new child, the son of man in total.

the spirit role of adam and the created role of eva, move
along the times (that's why uriel is the master of the times, he is repenting, other words, growth)... it's like negative and positive in a motor,
there is a change of roles...going in a step up.



[edit on 20-10-2009 by pasttheclouds]



posted on Oct, 20 2009 @ 09:20 AM
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Heb 1:1 God, who at many times and in many ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,

I have no problem with verse 1:1 referring to God the Father.

let's re-word it
Heb 1:1 God, who at many times and in many ways spoke to the present day Christians by the early apostles.

Would this mean that God (the Father) spoke DIRECTLY with the early apostles?

No.

Let's read original again...
Heb 1:1 God, who at many times and in many ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,

So God used various means to make His message known.

It should be noted, that if God (Father) spoke directly in an audible way to either the prophets or the fathers, then, scripture is broken. Since the NT says no one has heard the voice of God (Father).

It what "many ways" did God communicate to the patriarchs?

Let's look at how he communicated the book of Revelation...

God had a scroll, with His message. He gave the scroll to Christ, since he qualified to open it. Christ then presents this information to John (by opening and showing him the contents of the scroll). John then records the book of Revelations, and this is how we receive the message.

Thereby, God communicates this message to US, today, by various means and at various times.




[edit on 20-10-2009 by SirPaulMuaddib_2]



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