Why Christ was NOT Yahweh of the Old testament

reply to post by jmdewey60


The OP, DoctorX, is the one on here who believes Jesus didn't exist until His birth from Mary. This is the point sirpaul was trying to prove.... that Jesus did exist as the Word, Jehovah, YHWH of the OT. The Father is an entity that not even the Jews knew of because their God of the OT was Jesus before His human form. The Father was in the background and not known in the OT. Jesus came in the flesh to reveal the Father to all and to claim the Father to be greater than He.

Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

The OP, DoctorX, is the one on here who believes Jesus didn't exist until His birth from Mary. This is the point sirpaul was trying to prove.... that Jesus did exist as the Word, Jehovah, YHWH of the OT. The Father is an entity that not even the Jews knew of because their God of the OT was Jesus before His human form. The Father was in the background and not known in the OT. Jesus came in the flesh to reveal the Father to all and to claim the Father to be greater than He.

If there was one greater, it would be El, or Eliyon, the one in the verses you were discussing in the Conspiracy side. So he would have been known in the old testament. From what I am reading in Smith's The Early History of God, the attributes of El were incorporated into YHWH. So after that confab, there is no one higher than YHWH. So Jesus was previously to being Jesus, showing up in the name of YHWH as spokesperson for YHWH, as I see it. The actual YHWH is in heaven where no one has seen Him. Jesus, having been with YHWH on a very close bases, being a Spirit of YHWH, would be able to be the perfect representative of Him, in human form.

[edit on 28-10-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by jmdewey60


My explanation of Elohim is that it is referring to more than one God. God the Father and God the Son/Word. Elohim is the family of God seeing that it is uniplural in form speaking of one unit with multiple members. We, as christians are to be part of the Elohim family when we are resurrected. As you explained earlier, about my "two Jehovah's theory", a possibility is that the Father, known as YHWH sent out His Son, which was a lesser YHWH, or the physical representation of YHWH. Once again, a theory as I simply believe that Jesus was YHWH who came in the flesh to reveal the Father, unknown to mankind before Jesus' human existence. Jesus, as YHWH was the God of the Jews. He came as a human to reveal the Father and spoke of the Father being greater than He.

reply to post by Locoman8

El was the old Canaanite God that the patriarchs knew.
God said that "they knew me, but by the old name. I am now going by this name."
YHWH was a god who had as his refuge, the area where Moses was, as a shepherd with Jethro.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Where does it say He changed His name? El is the standard hebrew word for "god". Elohim is unique because it is uniplural and can be used as a sign of authority or as a single unit or entity comprising of multiple members. El and Elohim are not the same thing. El is used for many gods weather speaking of greek gods, Satan as the god of this world, or YHWH as the most High God. Elohim is unique for being used as the entity that created all things.

I have even more respect for a Creator that would wear his creations shoes while expecting them tp walk in his than if he didn't. For a human to give up everything to follow after God should be expected but for a God to give up everything he has to become created like his brothers that he created is incredible. Especially if he is the God that is talked about in the OT/Tanach.

John 5 So now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had in your presence before the world existed.

Philippians 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being in human form, 8 he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death— even death on a cross.

23 “Look, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall name him Emmanuel,” which means, “God is with us.”

As for speaking about the one the Messiah calls his father

1 john 4:12 No one has ever seen God

Since the Messiah's father has never been seen Moses didn't see the Father then.



Revelation 1:7 Look! He is coming with the clouds; every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and on his account all the tribes of the earth will wail. So it is to be. Amen. 8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “See, the home of God is among mortals. He will dwell with them as their God; they will be his peoples, and God himself will be with them; 4 he will wipe every tear from their eyes. Death will be no more; mourning and crying and pain will be no more, for the first things have passed away.” 5 And the one who was seated on the throne said, “See, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6 Then he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give water as a gift from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who conquer will inherit these things, and I will be their God and they will be my children.

Revelation 22:12 “See, I am coming soon; my reward is with me, to repay according to everyone’s work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”


I won't be the one to question his glory that is for sure!

Revelation 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he placed his right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living one. I was dead, and see, I am alive forever and ever; and I have the keys of Death and of Hades.

Jesus is the antichrist, an imposter who teaches only lies. His image the crucifix is an idol that can neither save nor be saved. He convinces people that they can't overcome their sinful human nature and rightfully so because he is powerless to help them overcome it.

1 John 4 Whoever says, “I have come to know him,” but does not obey his commandments, is a liar, and in such a person the truth does not exist; 5 but whoever obeys his word, truly in this person the love of God has reached perfection. By this we may be sure that we are in him: 6 whoever says, “I abide in him,” ought to walk just as he walked.

1 John 3:6 No one who abides in him sins; no one who sins has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Everyone who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 Everyone who commits sin is a child of the devil; for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 Those who have been born of God do not sin, because God’s seed abides in them; they cannot sin, because they have been born of God. 10 The children of God and the children of the devil are revealed in this way: all who do not do what is right are not from God, nor are those who do not love their brothers and sisters.

www.newhopeforall.info...

Jesus is the antichrist, an imposter who teaches only lies.

You were doing so well, till you said this....

What on earth are you talking about???

that's the way to the truth ,
he is doing well, but he has to allow doubt,
because jesus is the right side...

jesus is the right side, the image the church made of him,
as apart from the father, because the father is just simply one,
is the lie... jesus after glroification is not jesus, but one.

you find god not by a a prophet but by god,
but for some god is jesus,
as long they remember his mercy,
it is not the real problem...

religions will go wrong in the mercy they will reject to give others,
when they see the sons coming, their fear will make
them go wrong.



[edit on 28-10-2009 by pasttheclouds]

reply to post by Locoman8
I would recomend Smith's The Early History of God. I mentioned that earlier, I think. This guy is not an atheist god basher but studies all the research into the god of Israel. You can find it at Amazon and there is a used one for $11.
www.amazon.com...=pd_sim_b_1
Another book to read is by Cross; Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic
www.amazon.com...=pd_sim_b_3
They look at the actual evidence and asses it and do not go into wild speculation. I have to say, I found Smith's book to be the most difficult book I have ever read because of the technical nature of it. It is not a leisurely read-thru. Another thing is that when you read the footnotes, it kind of forces you to buy the books he references.


[edit on 29-10-2009 by jmdewey60]

I got a new book in the mail today, You Shall Have No Other Gods, Israelite Religion in the light of Hebrew Inscriptions. (I don't recommend anyone clicking over to Amazon to place an order. It is really just a reference piece, consisting mainly of lists of names discovered in inscriptions, and organized by the theophoric element in the name, whether it be YHWH, or another possible god)
I thought I would toss out a little tidbit that I ran across that has to do with the topic at hand, or at least what Locoman was talking about not too long ago.
In Appendix F, . . ."no. . .male deity. . .been found. . .except possibly for an El statuette. . .an El-like stick figure. . .neither necessarily Israelite."
"It is debated. . .whether it is El or YHWH. . ."

[edit on 2-11-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by jmdewey60


I don't understand your point. El is the hebrew word for "god" and applies to the word "god" in any case such as "false god" or "pagan god". Elohim refers to a number of celestial beings weather it be gods, angels, demons, or any other spirit beings. Elohim used in a unique singular-plural way is only used when refering to the combination of the heavenly Father and Son. It is always used with the plural noun "Us" which tells you it's the word "God" but more than one member being in the picture.

YHWH was not used until Exodus when God revealed His name to Moses... first as the "I AM" which is also translated "I have been" or "I am Eternal." Jesus claimed to be this "I AM" from Exodus. Grant you, the many Jehovah's witnesses on this site will disagree with me calling "I AM" a mistranslation or something along those lines. Anything to discredit a theological view with biblical backup.

reply to post by The Riley Family

Jesus is the antichrist, an imposter who teaches only lies. His image the crucifix is an idol that can neither save nor be saved. He convinces people that they can't overcome their sinful human nature and rightfully so because he is powerless to help them overcome it.

LOL another fool has found his way to BTS and has started posting his cracked out personal fews. Clearly you have gained no knowledge from reading the Bible. Try beating yourself in the head with it, maybe something will sink in!

Originally posted by dthwraith
reply to post by The Riley Family

 

Jesus is the antichrist, an imposter who teaches only lies. His image the crucifix is an idol that can neither save nor be saved. He convinces people that they can't overcome their sinful human nature and rightfully so because he is powerless to help them overcome it.

LOL another fool has found his way to BTS and has started posting his cracked out personal fews. Clearly you have gained no knowledge from reading the Bible. Try beating yourself in the head with it, maybe something will sink in!

ROFL

Jesus being the antichrist, that's one I haven't heard before. And I have heard a lot of whacked out beliefs over the years. Since the Antichrist comes after the Christ, that means the Messiah came before Jesus???
So who is it, I am curious?

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


He'll probably say "John the Baptist" just because of how crazy calling the Christ, the antichrist is. My name is Rob, but does that make me an anti-Rob? No.

Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

I don't understand your point.

El is God. Whoever the real, most high God is, that is El. I don't see any way to get around that. Now, there was the Canaanite God, El. An argument can be made that the Israelites, or who became the Israelites, were basically Canaanites. If there was a segment of the population who were detached from the Canaanite main-stream for an amount of time, then showed up in huge numbers following a god once known as El, but now going by another name, forcing compliance from the greater population, you can see how a problem, out of these circumstances, could arise.
If you were a Canaanite who still believed in El, would you be ignored or would you be considered a threat to the YHWH'ites? Most likely you would be taken into the fold with all the attributes of El being absorbed by YHWH. What happens to the old name for God. Most likely it becomes an ambiguous name for god, which is tolerated to the extent that it becomes a generic for god, or in some cases, God.


[edit on 3-11-2009 by jmdewey60]

He was doing so well in that post...then I got to the line about Christ being the Anti-Christ and I had to crack up.

Anti-Christ and Christ are not just one person, neither one of them are. They are titles, like markers, showing where humanity is at a certain place and time. There are those that have acted in ways that seem against a God, against peace and love....and there are those that seem to be for God, for love, for rightousness and a better way.

To Fully be either one can be said another way. The or A anti-christ can be seen as one who is fully flesh and not aware that he or she is spirit or originates from spirit. Refusal to even glance at the idea that there is a origin of their breath of life can lead one to become unrighteous, walking in ways of only flesh. A Christ or even The Christ (depending on how one needs to look at it) is a being that is aware of the higher vibration and chooses to use their entire life of flesh to live for the spirit that gave them the breath of life. Their will becomes the Divine Will, they will not fight for the life of flesh and they will walk in a way that is only for others, the greater good....not for them self or for their own salvation.

There are beings that incarnate to bring the light (wisdoms). The wisdom's will show us about our two different natures, such as the nature of flesh or of spirit. To say we dont learn from both dualities equally would be wrong.

People fear they will follow in a 'wrong' way....so the idea of watching out for the 'bad' one that will come 'before' Christ is like a 'safe ground' for believers of the second coming that they wont be tricked. But delusion is allowed, for those that are truly discerning natures to stand out from the ones that were not discerning.

If Christ hasnt came yet, and a man begins to show a new way, a way of peace and unity.....will the world kill him?

Yes, they will, out of their own fear.

The whole anti Christ and Christ is about us discerning what we are. How much do we live for the flesh and the spirit. Where is our 'marker' at? To what degree or percent is everyone flesh and spirit? What voice do you follow? Is it a voice of excuses and cope outs or a voice of truth and honesty. The story needs to be looked at on a bigger scale....its the perfect way for all of us to discern where we are, in between flesh and spirit. What do we need to work on and become.

We are to go on and do better things. This is telling us, we still have a lot to figure out and do.

Light beings teach us things. They give us examples of righteousness or unrighteousness. For us to weigh and measure.

There really aren't that many differences from the image of what people expect as the anti christ and the image of what God was like in the OT. If you think God carries the attributes that is shown in the OT....you will not know the one who lives for flesh and this world from the one that lives for spirit and the heavens. There will be many who follow the one that demands a Earthly Temple and desires Earthly things...they will call him God, they will kill for him and his Earthly purpose.

Interesting thread, slightly off track in last few posts, but worth continuing if others want to chime in on main line thread.

reply to post by The Riley Family

Jesus is the antichrist, an imposter who teaches only lies.

Does this mean you think somebody else is the Messiah or Christ, or you just do not believe at all

More quotes of the Psalms etc showing that in context, Yahweh was the father......

In the book of Hebrews, chapter 2, Paul quotes old testament scriptures as prophecies from David and Isaiah in the context that this is prophetic of Christ speaking about his Father. Note that the person speaking (Christ) is speaking to the LORD (Yahweh), just as it always is when the apostles quote the Old Testament prophecies....

Hebrews 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12 [Christ] Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. [Psalm 22]
13 And again, I will put my trust in him. [2Samuel 22] And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. [Isaiah 8]

Now read those quotes in the Old Testament prophecies, and remember, Paul stated these are written from the perspective of Christ...

PSALMS 22:19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD (Yahweh): O my strength, haste thee to help me.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.

2SAMUEL 22:2 And he said, The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer;
3 The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my savior; thou savest me from violence.


ISAIAH 8:18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.

Why would the Apostles always quote the Old Testament Prophecies in the context that Yahweh was the Father, and that even Christ called Yahweh the Father, if this wasn't the case? Because they all believed that Yahweh was the Father...


Isaiah 63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.

Isaiah 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.


John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.