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Why Christ was NOT Yahweh of the Old testament

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posted on Oct, 15 2009 @ 03:14 AM
My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me

Jesus Christs last words were "My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me," just as prophesied by David in Psalm 22. This Psalm is also prophetically speaking from the perspective of Christ.

1 To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying ,
8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

Christ in this prophecy, is saying that Yahweh was his God from his mother's belly. Notice also that it mentions that the people around him say "He trusted on the LORD (Yahweh) that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him."

The people did actually say this. In the Gospel of Mark, where Christ utters the words "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me", it is translated in English that Christ was calling for Elijah, and most think this is speaking of Elijah the prophet, but it is not. The word Elijah means God (El) Jah or Yah (A contraction of the Hebrew word Yahweh), it means God Yahweh, or my God Yahweh. The people around responded to Christs words by saying...

Mark 15:35 And some of them that stood by, when they heard it, said, Behold, he calleth Elijah.
36 And one ran and filled a sponge full of vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying, Let alone; let us see whether Elijah will come to take him down.

They are essentially saying "He is calling for God Yahweh (or his God Yahweh), let us see if his God Yahweh will save him", just as they were prophesied.

This shows who Jesus thought of as his God.....Yahweh.

[edit on 15/10/09 by doctorex]

posted on Oct, 15 2009 @ 03:19 AM

Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by doctorex

My church doesn't teach falsely. It simply never mentions this tidbit of info but the beliefs of my church fall in line with this scenario.

I was under the impression the Living church of God teach the same concerning Yahweh that HWA did back in the 80's. Correct me if I'm wrong.

HWA taught that Yahweh was not the father, but Christ the son, he didn't teach they were both. I would be interested to hear what you Pastor thinks of your new belief.

No worries about any harmful words Locoman, I don't take any of them personally, but you should listen to the last sermon given at this years feast of tabernacles. It quite amazing how Ron's revealed timeline fits perfectly between the holy days, quite indisputable, and the things He prophesied are coming to pass, look around you.

posted on Oct, 15 2009 @ 07:46 AM
My dad's name is Guy,
but i call him dad,
sometimes daddy,
for others he has other names.

Elijah means glorified, the seal of the prophet.
It means God as one.

The glorification process is 2-way
the son glorifies the father,
the father glorifies the son...

what happened with jesus ?
mental cross - glorification - literal cross - time prescribed in torah for pureness
after birth of a son - taken up to father...

did the 40 days start after the cross ? or after the glorification ?

[edit on 15-10-2009 by pasttheclouds]

posted on Oct, 15 2009 @ 11:39 AM
Some people are bringing up 'names' of God.

I think its best to remember that most words work as 'titles' that relate to that particular language.

I dont believe God can be named or wants a name....every single limitation, such as name, gender, a failure of what our eyes can see.

God is unnameable. God is not he or she. Our titles to Thee still limit Thee....because Thee is so great its beyond our language to do so.

BTW....does anyone understand how Jesus got the name Jesus...and not Immanuel? Just curious on that one.

posted on Oct, 15 2009 @ 11:46 AM
Imannuel is the name of the son of man...the full son, New Jerusalem.
Jesus had other names in other languages,
some sects think even the right spelling and original language
of his name is important for slvation... which ends in
namecalling and leaves otu salvation for 99% of the world.

This teaches us the lesson, that god his name is in spirit and soul,
and not in spelling, language.

posted on Oct, 15 2009 @ 12:04 PM
reply to post by pasttheclouds

And what do you see the 'New Jerusalem' being?

Do you see it as a special you see God forcing Heaven to come to Earth?

Do you see God desiring an Earthly Temple?

My questions are only out of getting to know you, not as to seek truth.

Curious as to your thoughts, is all.

I see this sphere as always being a place of learning, always holding the both light and dark, for spirits to discern what is what. Im not sure I see God ever bringing force here for things to not be as they already are. I know you feel like God will stop the pain one day...but to me, I see it all so necassary, for our learning, it has to be this way.

With all due respect of not going too off topic, what do you picture as being the New Jerusalem?

posted on Oct, 15 2009 @ 12:10 PM
new jerusalem is the son of man in it's last level,
it means the dwelling of god, and god is one,
so his dwelling is evrywhere, it is heaven.
God's tabernacle is the millenium.
The arc contains the testimony, it means
the trstimony of god, he is one, so glorified as one,
the prophet level of the son of man, is the arc in the heavens.

Yes, heaven will come down, but first it will be in person(s), the son of man is levelled,
a glorified being has christ as his body,
which means all of god, and god is one, so all.
The arms and legs of a glorified being are just part of the 'eye'
he fullfills to be of god with one mind,
but still able to see through the eyes he wants
to look a theatre role.

Jacobs stone with seven eyes.

The prophet son of man are first the prophets,
ezek temple fullfilling,
later it is all us as new jerusalem.

[edit on 15-10-2009 by pasttheclouds]

posted on Oct, 15 2009 @ 12:28 PM
reply to post by pasttheclouds

So from what I see you saying is that it is our bodies that are the Temple, the final Temple, the one built without hands....

Correct me if I misinterpreted your words....if I did not misinterpret, I do agree. Im not sure this will ever be a perfect place though, for I dont think its meant to be. Anything in the flesh, of flesh, will always have Earthly desires and temptations to deal with. I think we can strive to be that heaven on Earth for others....but not sure there will ever be a time that everyone will be this.

Its just that the Universe is so vast....I just see the entire Universe being a ground to learn and discern, through the law of cycles and order. Mabey I just cant conceive such a future, or a time, without time, here.

My best to you always, hope all is well with you!

posted on Oct, 15 2009 @ 12:32 PM
reply to post by LeoVirgo


it's normal, but never ending rythms mean absolute truth is not free,
so in logic it is an impossibility, which means in logic that there is an
end date... and that would open life towards the paradise = millenium,
so everybody can come home.

posted on Oct, 15 2009 @ 07:55 PM
reply to post by LeoVirgo

BTW....does anyone understand how Jesus got the name Jesus...and not Immanuel? Just curious on that one.
Another non-name. It's two words. With, and, God.
There may be some sort of progression found by looking at verses that have those two words, together the way they are in Isaiah 7:14
They go from, Elohim is with us, to, The chief of the Elohim is with us, to, YHWH is with us, to, El,The Almighty God, is with us.
Maybe the supreme form of, God is with us.

[edit on 15-10-2009 by jmdewey60]

posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 05:02 PM
There are many, many proofs, that Christ existed and was the God of the OT, the NT explicitly tells you so, but apparently this is not enough for RW followers.

It should be noted that the God of the OT (whichever YHWH that would be...The Father or The Son), was MARRIED to Israel.

Jer 3:14

(14) Turn, O backsliding sons, says YHWH; for I am married to you
; and I will take you one from a city, and two from a family, and I will bring you to Zion.

This (hopefully) is theology 101. YHWH was married to Israel, and the OT covenant was the terms of the marital agreement.

But because Israel committed spiritual adultery with YHWH, by going after other gods, YHWH gave Israel a bill of divorce

Jer 3:8
(8) And I saw, when for all the causes for which backsliding Israel committed adultery, I sent her away and gave a bill of divorce to her, yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear, but she went and whored, she also.

YET....YHWH is prophesied to remarry (millennial prophecy)

Hos 2:16 And it shall be at that day, says YHWH, you shall call Me, My Husband, and shall no more call Me, My Baal.

Whether you want to consider this millennial marriage a new marriage or a re-marriage it does not matter.

There are only two rules whereby YHWH (since YHWH keeps His own commandments after all) can marry again (a new "wife), or re-marry (to the old "wife).

1) If the wife, while divorced, remained celibate. (see Jer 3:1)

2) Either the wife died (after which the husband can now marry), or the husband died (freeing the wife to marry)

Since Israel committed adultery with other gods, God can not marry or re-marry, under the first rule. God MUST remain "single" until rule #2, comes into play.

Since prophecy is emphatic, and God has promised that the nation of Israel would NOT cease to exist (if it did, a whole 1/3 of Bible prophecy concerning Israel would thus be invalidated, this would invalidate God's power to prophecy accurately). God CAN NOT REMARRY under the rules of the first half of rule #2.

Do you see where I'm headed yet?

The ONLY WAY to allow for a new marriage or a "re-marriage" is UPON THE DEATH OF THE HUSBAND.

The death of the husband, frees the wife to marry anew, it also allows *upon a resurrection from the dead* of the husband to also marry again!

So if the YHWH of Hos 2:16 is the Father, it would require THE FATHER TO LAY DOWN HIS LIFE AND DIE, in order to free himself from the marriage contract so that he can remarry again.

Clearly this will never happen.

It HAS however happened because the YHWH of Hos. 2:16 and the YHWH of Jer 3:14, IS JESUS CHRIST.

The bible talks about ONE MARRIAGE SUPPER , and that is the one with Jesus Christ and the new Spiritual Israel THE CHURCH.

This prophecy will be fulfilled in Christ.

[edit on 17-10-2009 by SirPaulMuaddib]

posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 05:07 PM
Your are absolutely CORRECT! however, go to ATS and look up the psalm 110 thread, for further explanation, and then you will see that technically there are 2 "Jehovas" only one is called Adon... "A"d"O"n

posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 05:12 PM
reply to post by clever024

Absolutely...there are TWO YHWHs (but ONE Elohim or God Family)

The YHWH that was married to Israel HAD TO DIE, in order for any possible new marriage to take place. Upon the resurrection from the dead of Jesus Christ, he was NOW allowed to re-marry or marry anew.

[edit on 17-10-2009 by SirPaulMuaddib]

posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 08:08 PM
reply to post by SirPaulMuaddib

Interesting I read that when doing my devotions in Romans the other night.

posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 09:25 PM
in the prophesies of revelation there is also a new born son,the woman gives birth to the son, so jesus was the son of the past, and is now one with the father that 'died' as human, in other words = never died, giving place for the whole son to come out. Something the church ignores partly. They believe salvation can be reached by jesus, but jesus is not jesus when glorified, he is a human carrying salvation, the seal, which means one but in choice as human, which is not diffiult from a position as god, or is god only allowed to play infinity and not enjoy himself ?

Keep in mind that god does not leave the people he foresaw. Israel exsisted before the nation of israel...israel even exsisted before jacob exsisted. Or is abraham not the one foreseen as destined to be ? Israel as seed of jacob symbolised what God acted out in life, he builds history between pillars of destiny, because if there is a reason, the reason is optimal, and history fixed. There is no bible needed for that, that is pure logic. If truth hurts itself, it has a reason, if it has a reason then the sphere of pain has to be optimal, to be optimal it has a scenario, to fullfill the scenario it has points of destiny which can't be changed as foreseen. Truth exsists from beliefs, and those believes had to be believed in a certain order, put in pillars, named israël. But is is not a real nation. Were Gandhi, Socrates and Mohammed destined to exsist ? or is life not optimal and illogical. Israel is not meant to really know who they are, by not knowing they make example and build the plant of logic. Even in the time of Eliah, the remnant in the country was 7000. There was a remnant of promise in the country and there was country, a country born partly out of canaite woman.

Did god divorce those which he foresaw to put example, did god foresee israel to leave him ? then did he divorce them really ? or did he divorce the nation as a different israel. IS the nation and the religion the same as the remnant of promise ?
Who will he divorce ? the woman is that side of you that lives in a lie. That side of you will be divorces and is the mother of the child you grow inside. The child of truth. Grown by logic (= locking truth by seeing first the wrongs, repenting) Where jesus was, all will be who wants to take up cross for share. Even without knowing Life as his other name God.

[edit on 17-10-2009 by pasttheclouds]

posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 09:28 AM
It should be noted that Jer 23:5-6, explicitly mentions TWO YHWHs (again only one Elohim).

Jer 23:5-6
(5) Behold, the days come, saith the YHWH, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute judgment and justice in he land.
(6) In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, The YHWH is our righteousness.

The YHWH in verse 5 mentions a Righteous Branch, and this Righteous Branch is referred to as YHWH in verse 6.
You can take two approaches to verse 5. If you want to take the position that in verse 5, Christ is prophesying about himself, this is certainly fine, and of course this view supports the pre-existence of Christ.

If you want to take the position that the YHWH in verse 5 is the Father, this is also fine, God the Father is referencing the YHWH (the Self Existent One, who divested His nature to become human) as a Righteous Branch and offspring of David. The point of this is, there is a explicit mention of TWO YHWHs.

It should be noted, in the NT, that this Righteous offspring of David, is ALSO the ROOT of David, this Root/Offspring is clearly and explicitly identified as Jesus Christ. This is saying that Christ existed BEFORE David, in order to be his Root.

Rev 22:16
(16) I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify these things to you over the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the bright and Morning Star.

This knowledge was presented to the Pharisees as a riddle (they also did not understand the Two YHWHs issue)

41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? Whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. 43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
Matt 22:41-45 (KJV)

To which they had no answer.

But Christ answers that question, He is saying that the second YHWH is himself.

posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 02:43 PM
reply to post by SirPaulMuaddib

Awesome stuff man! I love the analogy of the marriage feast. Even I didn't see that one but is fits in well. You should post some of that on my "two Jehovahs" thread.

posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 02:49 PM
reply to post by pasttheclouds

in the prophesies of revelation there is also a new born son,the woman gives birth to the son, so jesus was the son of the past, and is now one with the father that 'died' as human, in other words = never died, giving place for the whole son to come out.

You should note that Revelation 12, 13, and 17 are all "backstories" to the whole subject of revelation. The child being born from the woman was not a new birth, but Jesus Christ. Just read verse five of chapter 12:

5 She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.

This speaks of the birth, and resurrection and accention to heaven of Christ. The woman... before the birth of the child was the nation of Israel. The woman in the wilderness after the birth and accention of Christ was the Church. Same woman with the transformation of pysical Israel to spiritual Israel (Church).

posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 02:53 PM
reply to post by doctorex

They teach that YHWH is Christ indeed. This information I came upon is not contrary to what they teach. It's just something that hasn't been questioned or found. It's also not a new belief. I believed the two of them existed before creation and that they are both Gods. Only difference now is the fact that they were both holding the title of YHWH, one lesser and one greater. Jehovah and Jehovih or for the techinical hard-pressed literaries in this site.... Yahweh and Yahwih.

posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 02:58 PM
reply to post by LeoVirgo

BTW....does anyone understand how Jesus got the name Jesus...and not Immanuel? Just curious on that one.

Immanuel means "God with us." Jesus is another name for Joshua. In hebrew, the Son's name was Yeshua which means "God is my salvation." Both names, Immanuel and Yeshua are characteristics of Christ. God was with us as a human and is our salvation... our savior. Jesus is a modern day name for Yeshua as proper translations would call Yeshua in english "Joshua". It doesn't matter either way. Believe in the person the name identifies...however you want to say it.. Immanuel, Jesus, Yeshua, YHWH, God.

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