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USA. Love it or leave it. =)
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reply to post by open_eyeballs
I agree with you that real patriotism is in the minority, else sites like this would not need to exist. But if it is the case, then a generalization is fitting as we would be referring to the majority. This is what I have said. It is up to the individual to decide whether they are a patriot, or they are a nationalist.
A partiot knows that there is little to be proud of, a nationalist will be overtly defensive regardless. I would hope that some Americans would not be offended by my words, but understand what I'm trying to say.
And yes Britain is no angel, but this thread ain't about Britain is it.
I agree with you that real patriotism is in the minority, else sites like this would not need to exist. But if it is the case, then a generalization is fitting as we would be referring to the majority. This is what I have said. It is up to the individual to decide whether they are a patriot, or they are a nationalist.
A partiot knows that there is little to be proud of, a nationalist will be overtly defensive regardless. I would hope that some Americans would not be offended by my words, but understand what I'm trying to say.
And yes Britain is no angel, but this thread ain't about Britain is it.
The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.
Originally posted by midnightbrigade
why come on to an American message board spouting generalizations about the American people?
Originally posted by midnightbrigade
ATS owners are American. The site is hosted here, the servers are here. That makes it an American site with international users.
Last time I checked ATS was an international messageboard with contributors and staff from all over the world that was founded by an Englishman
Originally posted by stevegmu
Patriotism in England is almost akin to a hate crime.
Is it? Thanks for telling me. I wonder how I missed that, me being English and patriotic and all.
There is a difference between rabid xenophobia and patriotism. Me, I'd fight and die for my country if it was threatened directly by a credible realistic enemy, and I have done more than my part to date to keep it as it is thank you very much. That having been said I respect the opinions of those people outside my country, and I also respect the voices of those who criticise my country, and point out where change is needed, provided they do so in a civilised manner.
The article quoted in the OP is from Blackwater. Those people aren't interested in patriotism. They are mercernaries who carry out dirty work and are interested in getting paid. If they were interested in patriotism, they wouldn't be selling their services to the highest bidder.
As for USA "love it or leave it" - the basic concept that made the country what it is today is forged on differing points of view, amalgamating as a whole. Saying "love it or leave it" is tantamount to censorship, because if criticism is equated to the need to leave, something is badly badly wrong.
If I love something, or someone so much, and I see them straying into dangerous territory, I'm sure as hell going to say something about it.
Suddenly thats a bad thing?
As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.
reply to post by Asktheanimals
I understand your point of view. However, I do not believe that what we both seek can come from governement, or law for that matter. It will only come from an awakening of humankind (and I'm not talking new-age hippie stuff here). Anarchy can and will only be possible under these terms. The L.A. Riots were not anarchy, just a violent revolt of those society as it stands grinds under it's weels.
As long as you have countries, therefore property, therfore laws, which will always crush the weak to the advantage of the strong, because that is the nature of the system, you will never have freedom for all, only freedom for the rich.
I understand your point of view. However, I do not believe that what we both seek can come from governement, or law for that matter. It will only come from an awakening of humankind (and I'm not talking new-age hippie stuff here). Anarchy can and will only be possible under these terms. The L.A. Riots were not anarchy, just a violent revolt of those society as it stands grinds under it's weels.
As long as you have countries, therefore property, therfore laws, which will always crush the weak to the advantage of the strong, because that is the nature of the system, you will never have freedom for all, only freedom for the rich.
reply to post by quackers
generalizing isnt fitting...By that logic you could also state that America is a white nation. It is a christian nation.
While there are those facets of American culture it wouldnt be right to generalize all of america in these ways...obviously.
just as patriotism doesnt equate to nationalism..and not all americans are nationalistic...in fact i would say there are less nationalists than patriots...or at least most people dont agree with those that hold strong nationalist views...but maybe are not necessarily patriotic...
here is your first post about patriotism:
It was wrong. You can backtrack that now, and you should, but like I said earlier... generalizing an entire country is either ignorant or spiteful..
but if you want to change your tune then i say welcome aboard...sometimes attitude adjustment just takes a slightly different perspective.
generalizing isnt fitting...By that logic you could also state that America is a white nation. It is a christian nation.
While there are those facets of American culture it wouldnt be right to generalize all of america in these ways...obviously.
just as patriotism doesnt equate to nationalism..and not all americans are nationalistic...in fact i would say there are less nationalists than patriots...or at least most people dont agree with those that hold strong nationalist views...but maybe are not necessarily patriotic...
here is your first post about patriotism:
Patriotism is no better than fascism or communism.
It was wrong. You can backtrack that now, and you should, but like I said earlier... generalizing an entire country is either ignorant or spiteful..
but if you want to change your tune then i say welcome aboard...sometimes attitude adjustment just takes a slightly different perspective.
Do you think that such a varied mix of ethnicities making up the 300 million + population of the U.S.A , requires a strong social glue
to bind it together.
It occurs to me that the reason trashing USA patriotism is in vogue and attacks on the Pledge of Allegiance is not thrown out of court is because the
elite want a one world government. A way to push people towards that goal is to make fun of their love of their country, to make patriotism
"politically incorrect", to make them ashamed of their country through stories in foreign papers.
Please remember the Federal Reserve bankers took over the media in the USA in 1917. They created and funded the "new departments of Economics" in 1913. They have continued to mess with our minds and education ever since. According to William Schmidt, a statistics professor, who looked at how U.S. students compared to students in other countries in science and math.. "In fourth-grade, we start out pretty well, near the top of the distribution among countries; by eighth-grade, we're around average, and by 12th-grade, we're at the bottom of the heap, outperforming only two countries, Cyprus and South Africa." Source
Most telling is the material NOT taught
As shown in this book the USA is not the only Country with "controlled media" It is only thanks to the internet we have any hope of getting the real facts instead of the "global elite" pap served up by their tame journalists.
Invisible crises: what conglomerate control of media means for America and the World
note GE is connected to J.P. Morgan - Bankster
Please remember the Federal Reserve bankers took over the media in the USA in 1917. They created and funded the "new departments of Economics" in 1913. They have continued to mess with our minds and education ever since. According to William Schmidt, a statistics professor, who looked at how U.S. students compared to students in other countries in science and math.. "In fourth-grade, we start out pretty well, near the top of the distribution among countries; by eighth-grade, we're around average, and by 12th-grade, we're at the bottom of the heap, outperforming only two countries, Cyprus and South Africa." Source
Most telling is the material NOT taught
“... Over the last quarter-century, historians have by and large ceased writing about the role of ruling elites in the country's evolution. Or if they have taken up the subject, they have done so to argue against its salience for grasping the essentials of American political history. Yet there is something peculiar about this recent intellectual aversion, even if we accept as true the beliefs that democracy, social mobility, and economic dynamism have long inhibited the congealing of a ruling stratum. This aversion has coincided, after all, with one of the largest and fastest-growing disparities in the division of income and wealth in American history.... Neglecting the powerful had not been characteristic of historical work before World War II. ” hnn.us...
As shown in this book the USA is not the only Country with "controlled media" It is only thanks to the internet we have any hope of getting the real facts instead of the "global elite" pap served up by their tame journalists.
Invisible crises: what conglomerate control of media means for America and the World
note GE is connected to J.P. Morgan - Bankster
I want to return to the subject of GE's silencing of Keith Olbermann both because there are new facts I've obtained that shed light on what happened here and because this is one of the most blatant examples yet of pernicious corporate control over America's journalism. The most striking aspect of this episode is that GE isn't even bothering any longer to deny the fact that they exert control over MSNBC's journalism. They've brazenly dispensed with the long-held fiction of the sanctity of journalistic independence from interference by the corporate parents that own America's largest news organizations.
Instead, GE is now openly and proudly boasting of their editorial control over the news organizations they own, and publicly rubbing it in the faces of NBC News journalists that they're subservient to GE's corporate agenda.... www.commondreams.org...
I was born and raised in the USA, and I can say from experience that this country IS INDEED full of arrogant jerks. Unlike so many others here, I
won't try to be apologetic by saying that "the majority of Americans are good people", because my experience has been quite the opposite. Very few
and far between are the good, decent and caring people in this country. So it's no surprise that the rest of the world sees us as fat, lazy, bullies.
I will never make any apologies for my point of view, because I was born into this. I played no part in making things the way they are in this country, good or bad. So I will accept niether credit or blame. And I will also never support the idea that just because someone was born within a country's borders, that they are required to swear allegiance to it's people or government or the ideals of either. And the idea that children should be required to stand and recite the pledge of allegiance before each school day begins, is not too far removed from the idea behind the hitler youth program. Indoctrination of an undeveloped mind.
So flame away right wingers, but before anyone starts calling me a "new guy" and tries to explain to me "the way things are around here", let it be known that I have two other accounts on this site and have been lurking and sparcely posting here for years.
I will never make any apologies for my point of view, because I was born into this. I played no part in making things the way they are in this country, good or bad. So I will accept niether credit or blame. And I will also never support the idea that just because someone was born within a country's borders, that they are required to swear allegiance to it's people or government or the ideals of either. And the idea that children should be required to stand and recite the pledge of allegiance before each school day begins, is not too far removed from the idea behind the hitler youth program. Indoctrination of an undeveloped mind.
So flame away right wingers, but before anyone starts calling me a "new guy" and tries to explain to me "the way things are around here", let it be known that I have two other accounts on this site and have been lurking and sparcely posting here for years.
Recite in a zombie-cyborg monotone: "I pledge allegiance to the National 'Security' STATE, to totalitarian rule by secrecy, to give as much Black
Budget project money as my government masters desire, to the Wall Street money junkies who are also my masters, to the omnipotence of the 'Federal'
Reserve, since obviously these people are better than me, and I am but a lowly slave. For theirs is the Kingdom, the Power and the Glory, forever and
ever, Amen."
I don't love it and I'm leaving it. Got me a sweet controller gig in Amsterdam. 6 figures and bitchin health insurance. Education has it's rewards.
Have fun living in a soon to be if not already third world country. Bye.
reply to post by Ismail
Yeah, it seems that tribal peoples everywhere have managed to
live in a more or less state of anarchy. The only reservations they
had were tribal taboos (their equivalent of laws). The difference
with modern society is that when someone broke the taboo the
elders would gather and speak and listen to decide whether or not
to be punished and what that might constitute.
That is my idealized way of social interaction since everyone in a
tribe had a place and responsiblity. Everyone felt wanted and cared
for, something we could desperately use in this world. I think the UN
could make itself useful and spend a week listening to tribal elders
tell the modern world how to make societies work. We would all
stand to learn a great deal.
We have our differences Ismail and I'm grateful that we have a
place like ATS to discuss them. I'm grateful for you sharing your views
with me - I have learned from you and I appreciate it, thank you.
Yeah, it seems that tribal peoples everywhere have managed to
live in a more or less state of anarchy. The only reservations they
had were tribal taboos (their equivalent of laws). The difference
with modern society is that when someone broke the taboo the
elders would gather and speak and listen to decide whether or not
to be punished and what that might constitute.
That is my idealized way of social interaction since everyone in a
tribe had a place and responsiblity. Everyone felt wanted and cared
for, something we could desperately use in this world. I think the UN
could make itself useful and spend a week listening to tribal elders
tell the modern world how to make societies work. We would all
stand to learn a great deal.
We have our differences Ismail and I'm grateful that we have a
place like ATS to discuss them. I'm grateful for you sharing your views
with me - I have learned from you and I appreciate it, thank you.
reply to post by Untergang
Great post dude. Tell it like it is. U.S.A for the self righteous, humorless, and judgemental. I can't tell you how happy I am to be leaving.
Great post dude. Tell it like it is. U.S.A for the self righteous, humorless, and judgemental. I can't tell you how happy I am to be leaving.
Originally posted by amazed
Greed seems to have taken over this great country and turned it into a melting pot of crazy money grubbing greedy psychotic self serving people.
I hate to say this, but this is probably going on in every western country. Eastern block too. It's like the essence of the 21st century.
People are finally starting to lose it. They mostly try to fill their empty lives with material goods and negative emotions (such as oppressing other people). And this is what it comes down to. Everything sucks now
We need to bring some harmony back to the world. I guess all this was bound to happen.
reply to post by niteboy82
Yea, sorry about that, I was thinking of Springer and SkepticOverlord. They're the only ones I've had any contact with. I forgot about Simon. My bad. As for the rest of my point, a quick ping of www.abovetopsecret.com yields an IP of 75.126.76.151, which in turn going to the DShield website yields a "Whois" info of
network: IP-Network-Block:75.126.76.0-75.126.76.255
network: Organization;I:Softlayer Corporate C
network: Street-Address:6400 International Pkwy Suite 1200
network: City: Plano
network: State:TX
network: Postal-Code:75093
network: Country-Code:US
Following up with a quick tracert of abovetopsecret.com gets a route info from my ISP to the AT&T Dallas data center right before it hops to Softlayer in Plano. So that leaves two possibilities. Either ATS is hosted in the U.S. OR we post on a mirror IN the U.S.
Using Occams razor (that members seem to swear by) I deduce that of the two possibilities, this is an American site. Of course I can't prove that, but I have no evidence to suggest that this is a mirror, thus my conclusion.
If I'm wrong, please educate me. I'm all about denying ignorance. Especially my own.
Edit to take out the from Plano and Postal-Code (darn HTML)
[edit on 22-9-2009 by midnightbrigade]
Yea, sorry about that, I was thinking of Springer and SkepticOverlord. They're the only ones I've had any contact with. I forgot about Simon. My bad. As for the rest of my point, a quick ping of www.abovetopsecret.com yields an IP of 75.126.76.151, which in turn going to the DShield website yields a "Whois" info of
network: IP-Network-Block:75.126.76.0-75.126.76.255
network: Organization;I:Softlayer Corporate C
network: Street-Address:6400 International Pkwy Suite 1200
network: City: Plano
network: State:TX
network: Postal-Code:75093
network: Country-Code:US
Following up with a quick tracert of abovetopsecret.com gets a route info from my ISP to the AT&T Dallas data center right before it hops to Softlayer in Plano. So that leaves two possibilities. Either ATS is hosted in the U.S. OR we post on a mirror IN the U.S.
Using Occams razor (that members seem to swear by) I deduce that of the two possibilities, this is an American site. Of course I can't prove that, but I have no evidence to suggest that this is a mirror, thus my conclusion.
If I'm wrong, please educate me. I'm all about denying ignorance. Especially my own.
Edit to take out the from Plano and Postal-Code (darn HTML)
[edit on 22-9-2009 by midnightbrigade]
As an American I am proud of my Country.
We got plenty of things wrong, but the people are what the country is.
In any event where people need help, in town, in the state, or around the world Americans volunteer and go to give aid, assistance, money and prayers to those in need.
Even those of us that disagree politically, ethically, religiously set aside our differences and come together when the need arises.
I have plenty of bad things to say about the government, some of the ones in it now and that were in it inthe recent past, but if push comes to shove, By Almighty God above, I am, and shall forever be, a Red White and Blue American.
If the link works a 1968 piece by a great entertainer whose music I grew up on.
ZHAFmFsb9XM
(Ok I tried some of the instructions to embed the link and it didnt work, so Ill just post the actual address for those that are interested)
www.youtube.com...
[edit on 22-9-2009 by Wolfpack 51]
One last thing, if you do click on the link, listen to the words of the song, they still ring true for most Americans today.
[edit on 22-9-2009 by Wolfpack 51]
We got plenty of things wrong, but the people are what the country is.
In any event where people need help, in town, in the state, or around the world Americans volunteer and go to give aid, assistance, money and prayers to those in need.
Even those of us that disagree politically, ethically, religiously set aside our differences and come together when the need arises.
I have plenty of bad things to say about the government, some of the ones in it now and that were in it inthe recent past, but if push comes to shove, By Almighty God above, I am, and shall forever be, a Red White and Blue American.
If the link works a 1968 piece by a great entertainer whose music I grew up on.
ZHAFmFsb9XM
(Ok I tried some of the instructions to embed the link and it didnt work, so Ill just post the actual address for those that are interested)
www.youtube.com...
[edit on 22-9-2009 by Wolfpack 51]
One last thing, if you do click on the link, listen to the words of the song, they still ring true for most Americans today.
[edit on 22-9-2009 by Wolfpack 51]
I'm a American, and I love my country. Yet I also hate "parts" of my country. Both past, present and probably as well the future.
I just don't understand why people either have to whole hog one direction or the other? Why not both?
I just don't understand why people either have to whole hog one direction or the other? Why not both?
reply to post by midnightbrigade
Just because the site is hosted in the US doesn't make it a US site. The sheer number of anti-American and anti-Semitic threads and posts is a dead giveaway that this site is European.
Just because the site is hosted in the US doesn't make it a US site. The sheer number of anti-American and anti-Semitic threads and posts is a dead giveaway that this site is European.
reply to post by midnightbrigade
neformore made a point of saying that this is an International site founded by an Englishman.
Just because the server is hosted in the US does not make it a US site. It just means that the physical location was decided to reside in the US because it was either cheaper or easier to locate the server there. It could have just as easily been located in Australia or the UK or anywhere in Europe for that matter.
I can't stand it when some American's come in here and claim that this is an American site so everyone speaking out against the US should shut-up. That's just plain arrogant and ignorant.
[edit on 23/9/2009 by Kryties]
neformore made a point of saying that this is an International site founded by an Englishman.
Just because the server is hosted in the US does not make it a US site. It just means that the physical location was decided to reside in the US because it was either cheaper or easier to locate the server there. It could have just as easily been located in Australia or the UK or anywhere in Europe for that matter.
I can't stand it when some American's come in here and claim that this is an American site so everyone speaking out against the US should shut-up. That's just plain arrogant and ignorant.
[edit on 23/9/2009 by Kryties]
reply to post by Kryties
Yea, didn't say that. I said that my conclusion, based off of the evidence of its location, was that this was an American site. I also invited niteboy82 to correct me if I was wrong considering he was the first mod to bring it up. Not you. Mind your own business.
Secondly, I never discouraged ANYONE from speaking out about the U.S. In fact I said, "Hate our government all you want, denounce our governments' policies all you want...Shut your mouth about the American people which you obviously know NOTHING about."
This was in response to sweeping generalizations and attacks on the American people from ONE MEMBER. That response was aimed at Quakers. Again, not your business. Kindly refrain from responding to my posts unless you have something to add other than jumping on the "Hate Americans" bandwagon. THAT is arrogant and ignorant. As a helpful life tip, you shouldn't throw flaming spears when you live in a grass hut.
Yea, didn't say that. I said that my conclusion, based off of the evidence of its location, was that this was an American site. I also invited niteboy82 to correct me if I was wrong considering he was the first mod to bring it up. Not you. Mind your own business.
Secondly, I never discouraged ANYONE from speaking out about the U.S. In fact I said, "Hate our government all you want, denounce our governments' policies all you want...Shut your mouth about the American people which you obviously know NOTHING about."
This was in response to sweeping generalizations and attacks on the American people from ONE MEMBER. That response was aimed at Quakers. Again, not your business. Kindly refrain from responding to my posts unless you have something to add other than jumping on the "Hate Americans" bandwagon. THAT is arrogant and ignorant. As a helpful life tip, you shouldn't throw flaming spears when you live in a grass hut.
reply to post by midnightbrigade
Apologies for making you think I was directing my comment at you. I was not. I have seen multiple examples of American's saying that on ATS over the years I have been here - it was aimed at everyone who has ever said it.
Apologies for making you think I was directing my comment at you. I was not. I have seen multiple examples of American's saying that on ATS over the years I have been here - it was aimed at everyone who has ever said it.
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