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USA. Love it or leave it. =)

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posted on Sep, 22 2009 @ 04:55 AM
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reply to post by Indigenous equity
 


Exactly, What little problem I have with America, is the government, NOT Americans!

The government we have does not represent Americans and therein lay much of the problem. It is absolutely essentual that America has a representive form of government. It's how you define America. WE have a criminal government that is doing things in the name of America and therefore is doing it illegally. That's why you see more and more Americans are concern about the direction we are going.

It's a good observation that, "no one wants to get bloody anymore". Unfortunately, they may soon have to just to stay alive.




posted on Sep, 22 2009 @ 04:55 AM
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Originally posted by Marked One

Personally I agree. If you don't like reciting the pledge of allegiance then what are you doing being American?


That whole thing sounds very Nazi-esque.

Pledging allegiance to a country is pledging allegiance to its government.. No matter how corrupt they are.

Its only another way to keep you in line.

I get what you are saying about immigrants, thats fair enough. But the rest sounds like blind nationalism spurred by a power hungry oligarchy... but thats only going by every empire and dictatorship in history.

Its completely possible that the US is the exception to the rule.. but judging by the amount of propaganda that emanates from it, its not.



posted on Sep, 22 2009 @ 05:05 AM
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The US is seen as an aggressive nation because we do what other's are incapable, or unwilling to do; what needs to be done. We free people from sadistic dictators. What they choose to do with that freedom isn't on us.


You can't truely believe this, can you?!


If you don't like reciting the pledge of allegiance then what are you doing being American


The CHOICE is what being an American used to be about. But that party is well and truely over. The whole "You're either with us or against us" mentality killed what America used to stand for.



posted on Sep, 22 2009 @ 06:58 AM
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Originally posted by TheLoony
Here's a link to James Clavell's "The Children's Story".

The Children's Story

It would be real easy for this to happen. I could say more in response to certain peoples in this thread but I would rather not argue. Just read the story, it's very short and should make anyone think, I would hope.


I was just thinking of that book! I remember my Mum giving me it to read when i was pretty young, about 8 or something. I even remember thinking at the time that it could happen so easily and that pledging allegiance to anything was a strange thing if you don't know what it means. I'm glad my mum gave me that book to read. It really left it's mark on me.



posted on Sep, 22 2009 @ 07:13 AM
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America must be the only country that still endorses this event, I live in the UK and as yet although there IS soon to be an English test, and if someone comes here to live ( including Americans) they are not told , " you must pledge Allegience to the Queen" every morning, they are not even told to sing every morning " God save the Queen" or to know the words by heart, nor told that if they sing any patriotic English song to stand there saluting.
They are simply allowed to live here following a few checks.
Why can't America do the same?
It seems to me ( I love to visit the states and have even thought about moving there before you start flaming) that Americans are so far up their own backsides and so blinkered to the fact they are part of Planet Earth ( its not called Planet America is it?) they forget there are others living in this world too.
SO why not have a choice to state the pledge every morning ? if your told to do something then that makes it a dictatorship doesn't it?
You can still be a loyal patriot of any country , you can still love your country, fear for your country, die for your country , and still not have to pledge any words every morning, you can carry that love for it in your heart, THAT is what makes you a loyal citizen to your country. Not someone telling you to do something otherwise your not a patriot.



posted on Sep, 22 2009 @ 07:16 AM
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In the OP, the source says:

"At the time, the words weren't that meaningful and it was more of a routine than anything."

So true. I never knew what it meant... So how important can it be to memorize a string of words if a kid doesn't even know what they mean? Making a child pledge to something he doesn't understand is indoctrination. Plain and simple.

As regards patriotism, my love for my country is no one's business unless I choose to make it so. To me, it's more patriotic to quietly send a soldier a care package than to stand up in a group, hand on my heart and sing a patriotic song or to say a pledge. I no longer do any of the "shows" of patriotism. Because frankly, it's no one's business how I feel about my country and I don't believe in doing things for "show".

"America, Love it or leave it"? Nah. I say, "America, If you love it, do your part to make it better."



posted on Sep, 22 2009 @ 07:35 AM
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The original challenge about reciting the pledge was the "under God"
part. Has that eluded everyone?
I for one won't pledge allegiance to any symbol, be it a flag, a statue, or
person. I would be happy to pledge allegiance to the Constitution
however.
How on earth did our country survive for over a hundred years without
the pledge of allegiance? I guess the founding fathers were all traitors
for not doing it.
This is really precious because it's some Killer-for-hire from Blackwater
telling others how to be a patriot. People who kill for the highest bidder
have absolutely no business telling me what patriotism is.
Tell ya what, go stuff your patriotism for show. As an American I have the
freedom to tell you exactly what I think. As a fellow American, you have
the right to get steamed about my telling you what to do with it and if that
don't work you have the freedom to leave the country. I don't have to
prove squat to you or anyone else by reciting words or flying flags. That's
what freedom is. Not your "show me your papers, please" mentality.
DON"T TELL ME HOW TO LOVE MY COUNTRY.



posted on Sep, 22 2009 @ 07:42 AM
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I'll recite the pledge right after this country stops being corporate run, flabby, retarded, and glued to the tube. I left out, greedy, stupid, and coming soon: Genocidal.

As it stands now, the thing needs rewritten:

I pledge allegiance to the corporations, who guide my daily life, and to the lawmakers who grow fat on my sweat, effort, and tears. There is no republic, it's been brought to it's knees. There's liberty, and justice for the rich, and the eventual imprisonment and slavery of the rest. One nation, in debt, for the enrichment of our leaders.

This place has certainly gone downhill since I was born into it.



posted on Sep, 22 2009 @ 07:55 AM
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reply to post by Marked One
 


Well, I for one, understand now that reciting the "Pledge of Allegiance" was an indoctrination process, and unlike you, it was not an option if you did not want to say it, or not growing up, it was seen and talked about as a "go with the flow" issue because we had a few children, not myself nor friends, who tried to not say it, and they were harassed for being different.

America, love it or leave it, huh?

No, I think not, I love it, never in my heart have I ever felt anything differently, it is however a corrupt Government I do not love, a system broken, manipulated, and bought as a commodity, the very example being Blackwater/Xe which you used as an example in your opening post, a solidier's loyalty is not bought and sold as a piece of stock, and that is what the private military contractors are seen as, with them being mercenaries.

Sorry, white wash the name mercenary, with private military contractor, it is still a mercenary, same as the Hessian's in the Revolutionary War, back then they were seen as scum, soldiers willing to work for any Government for a set rate, no matter the particular Government, they can be bought and sold.

What is that saying again?

Oh yeah, you can polish a turd, it is still however, a turd.

I am highly offended that any mercenary group would question any citizen's patriotism.

That is a double negative, it is like the snitch questioning someone turning in someone.

Our Government is supposed to be run by the people, for the people, and of the people, and it is not, clearly it can be bought by big business which bypasses our system as it was set up, lobbying groups, or interest groups can buy a politician's vote in Congress and bypass their entire constituency by trying to stay in office by accepting legal bribery, thereby the politician's are not serving our interests whatsoever.

Patriotism?

How can any man let a set of words tell him what he is or is not to think?

How can we declare patriotism to a country which is bought and sold?

How can we declare patriotism to a country which is not run for our benefit but in spite of it?

How can we declare patriotism to a country where politician's will make false promises?

Questioning someone's patriotism will always cause them to flare up and become pissed off.

It has been rather obvious that our country is not run by honest people, so those dishonest people questioning my patriotism, is but a farce, because they do not represent you or I, but their wallet and staying in office through political rhetoric and false promises, by them lying about their campaign promises, and accepting legal bribery, walking the fine line of dichotomy, they serve one master, money.

As the saying goes, no man can serve two masters, either they serve us, or they serve their bastard master's who control the purse strings, and by those pulling the purse strings, they therefore become nothing but hollow wooden puppets, dancing on the strings of their masters, serving their masters will.

For those who are willing to say a pledge of allegiance, and let their patriotism be questioned if you speak up about the corruption, it is equivalent to being told to shut up and surrender your First Amendment rights, and that you are not seeing the corruption right in front of your noses.

I have no issue with saying a pledge of allegiance, however I am allied with those citizens who want fair Government, less Government, and a Government run by the people, for the people, and of the people, not by the puppet masters, for the puppet masters, and of the puppets doing the dance of the marionette.

Blackwater, or now the Asian sounding Xe, is just a way for the Pentagon to bypass our Executive, Leglislative, and Judicial Branches, and bypass the United States Constitution, so this group, which can be bought is nothing more than soldiers of corruption.

"Private Military Contractors", representing the bastardization of the process, bypassing the system which is supposed to protect us, and therefore representing the illegal and corrupt practices of Government, are in no position to question my patriotism nor loyalty.

Blackwater : Right-Wing Conservative America, Whether You Like It Or Not...



[edit on 22-9-2009 by SpartanKingLeonidas]



posted on Sep, 22 2009 @ 08:13 AM
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reply to post by stevegmu
 


America frees people from sadistic dictators.....

Is that so?

Please provide me with a list of at least five dictators which America has "freed" people from.

Don't use Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, or Fascist Italy as examples as that wasn't just America.

I know you're going to say Saddam Hussein, but i can think of many more you're not going to say, for example:

Robert Mugabae
Pol Pot
Francisco Franco
Augusto Pinochet
Idi Amin
Juan Peron
Fidel Castro
Muammar Qaddafi
Mao Zedong
General Suharto
Kim Jong-il
Than Shwe
Aleksandr Lukashenko

Need i go on?



posted on Sep, 22 2009 @ 08:15 AM
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Speaking fo the pledge and children's videos, I thought this was an interesting one.

Children reciting the ORIGINAL Pledge of Allegiance before it was corrupted by religion.




posted on Sep, 22 2009 @ 08:36 AM
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I refuse to say it, for reasons already mentioned above.

Also, I'd be happy to leave, question is, is who's paying for it? I ain't got the money to leave this god forsaken place so who putting up the cash?



posted on Sep, 22 2009 @ 08:45 AM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.


Originally posted by midnightbrigadeATS owners are American.


As a matter of fact, the founder of ATS is British. Last I checked, British is not American.


---

Amazing that I am even reading a thread based upon an editorial written by someone from Xe (Blackwater) about patriotism. Utterly, stupefyingly amazing. Completely. The mercenaries have officially become the patriots, and people think its cool.


I'm taking the latter, 2 years from now I won't be an American citizen, because that's the time I'm allotting for myself to save enough to leave. Maybe the "hoo-rah Americans" can up with a scheme to get us out faster, say let us out of our medicare/social security payments? Takes out such a large chunk in something I won't be getting anyhow (and neither will those that remain Americans) but it would let me out faster.



As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Sep, 22 2009 @ 08:49 AM
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Originally posted by wylekat
I'll recite the pledge right after this country stops being corporate run, flabby, retarded, and glued to the tube. I left out, greedy, stupid, and coming soon: Genocidal.

As it stands now, the thing needs rewritten:

I pledge allegiance to the corporations, who guide my daily life, and to the lawmakers who grow fat on my sweat, effort, and tears. There is no republic, it's been brought to it's knees. There's liberty, and justice for the rich, and the eventual imprisonment and slavery of the rest. One nation, in debt, for the enrichment of our leaders.

This place has certainly gone downhill since I was born into it.


Ok, maybe we can negotate all those other things, BUT NOT MY FLABBYNESS. NO WAY, THATS NOT ON THE TABLE. LEAVE MY FLABBYNESS ALONE, YOU HEAR ME?



posted on Sep, 22 2009 @ 10:04 AM
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Anyone who does not comprehend that imaginary lines drawn on maps do not represent much in the grand scale of things needs medical attention. We are human, where we are born is irrelevant. We were born on planet earth. People who fail to see this simple point are not worthy of the priviledge of being human.

I pledge alleigence to the human kind, and cherish my fellow man. I proclaim that he who dwells in foolishness, stuborn arrogance, and division, thus failing to see that we are one, has forfeited his right to be acknowledged as a man, and will therefore be adressed in consequence. As an enemy of my species and of that which I love.



[edit on 22-9-2009 by Ismail]



posted on Sep, 22 2009 @ 10:21 AM
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Originally posted by quackers
reply to post by stevegmu
 



You're blind if you think otherwise.




lol deny ignorance.....lol

2nd line



posted on Sep, 22 2009 @ 10:28 AM
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Originally posted by silo13
reply to post by stevegmu
 



What I find interesting, is that many Europeans have a dislike or distrust of those who are patriots.


I live in Europe - Sicily (Italy) and I've yet to find one person who is not patriotic to the very heart and core.

I wonder where you got your generalization from?


I quite agree with your retort! I've spent a long time in France and elsewhere in Europe, and most everywhere people are patriotic in some shape or form. Nothing uniquely American in that. Heck, I believe you'll find many patriotic Cambodians.

What's there to discuss?



posted on Sep, 22 2009 @ 10:42 AM
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Originally posted by stevegmu
reply to post by quackers
 


I can understand why some would have trouble with patriotism. I have to believe such individuals come from countries for which there is nothing to be proud of. Call us fat and lazy all you want, but people die trying to get here. It seems the most vocal anti-Americans are just jealous, or angry because they aren't Americans.


People die trying to get to England.

And why?

Probably because America and its allies have bombed the crap out of their country, forced labour laws that aren't fair, restricted the rights of the citizens...

Just look at the thousands of people removed from that camp in France today. Most of them are Afghani or Iraqi citizens.
Are you really suggesting that they choose to leave their own country, their culture, their families and friends just because they get "more freedom" in America or the UK? No! they do it because they have to to survive, they do it because imperialist, corporate, warmongering countries like ours have torn their nations to shreds for a tidy profit.


Any person who fails to see this and just believes it's because people are jealous of America are seriously one sandwich short of a picnic.

What is there to be jealous of exactly?

A country who's monetary system is about to collapse because of greed?
A country where millions of citizens cannot use their own language sufficiently?
A country where millions of citizens are obese?
A country where propaganda rules all?
A country where corporations have taken over?

Seriously, that's nothing to be proud of, and even less to be jealous of.



posted on Sep, 22 2009 @ 10:48 AM
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Originally posted by quackers


The United States was founded by fanatical zealots who also just happened to be racist bigots, and as it would happen, very little has changed over the centuries.




Oh yes, fanatical Zealots. Zealots that said things like...

"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good."
Thomas Paine

"To establish any mode to abolish war, however advantageous it might be to Nations, would be to take from such Government the most lucrative of its branches."
Thomas Paine

“I can only say that there is not a man living who wishes more sincerely than I do to see a plan adopted for the abolition of slavery.”
-George Washington

"My opinion against slavery has always been known... Never in my life did I own a slave."
-John Adams

"All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression."
-Thomas Jefferson


"Conquest is not in our principles. It is inconsistent with our government."
-Thomas Jefferson

"I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less we use our power the greater it will be."
-Thomas Jefferson

Definitely the words of a fanatical bigots....

Whats interesting to me, is that people seems to disregard the fact that these men were British once. And if they did own slaves, they did when they were British colonials, and in fact.... the British capitalized off of slave labor long before the colonies declared independence.

Additionally, people from England have absolutely no room to speak about the things you do. Your entire society is under surveillance. Your government has done more damage to the world throughout it's history than every would-be dictator on the planet combined. The meddling within the financial sector alone through it's banking network is enough to give any sane person psychosis. Hell, your country is the reason that banking structure exists....

Maybe you forgot in your silly rant of yours, that your Nation has been there with us.... every step of the way. And if you work, and pay taxes, you have directly contributed to it.

It must be hard to live life so full of hypocrisy, Hating one nation and everyone in it for the things exact same thing your nation, and everyone in it does.

England....... it will be studied by tyrants for centuries, because it is a perfect case study in how to dumb a population down, totally dominate everyone in a country, and manipulate the entire world, without anyone giving a damn.




[edit on 22-9-2009 by aravoth]



posted on Sep, 22 2009 @ 11:08 AM
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Originally posted by Ismail
Anyone who does not comprehend that imaginary lines drawn on maps do not represent much in the grand scale of things needs medical attention. We are human, where we are born is irrelevant. We were born on planet earth. People who fail to see this simple point are not worthy of the priviledge of being human.

I pledge alleigence to the human kind, and cherish my fellow man. I proclaim that he who dwells in foolishness, stuborn arrogance, and division, thus failing to see that we are one, has forfeited his right to be acknowledged as a man, and will therefore be adressed in consequence. As an enemy of my species and of that which I love.
[edit on 22-9-2009 by Ismail]


Intellectually I agree with your sentiments - we are one world and it's
growing smaller every day. I wish all men could be free but many
countries (ok, all but a few) lack the very instruments with which to
keep freedom alive. I am talking about a Constitution - the documents
from which governments are empowered and the freedoms of the people
protected. Sure, you can argue that America no longer enjoys what
should be it's constitutional protections; the Bush administration
stripped most of them away in the name of "saving freedom". This
does not water down the original intent nor the latent power of this
document. Men live by agreements, a Constitution is simply that; an
agreement of freedoms for all men and the powers enumerated to the government.

One world sounds great and dreamy but there are always those who
will take advantage of those who are powerless. How do we restrain
them without the power of law? From what power then is law derived? If
you desire anarchy I suggest you read on what happens in the absence
of law, go watch some videos of the LA riots after the Rodney King
verdict to see if you still like anarchy.

The abuse of power by nations has long been a problem, I will concede
that. The alternative is scarcely better IMO. I believe in America because
I believe in Constitutional law. I think it is the world's last best hope for
freedom, the thing that you and I both wish to be the inheritance of man.
This was not a personal argument against you but a question of
methodolgy to obtain the same results. Freedom for all.



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