USA. Love it or leave it. =)

reply to post by stevegmu

What I find interesting, is that many Europeans have a dislike or distrust of those who are patriots.

People are scared of nationalism/patriotism because it has had us wiping each other out for 2000 odd years. 100 odd million in the past century alone.

Trying to be non bias here and I have to put our current views on it down to EU propaganda for the creation of the new EU Superstate.

It would be impossible to create this new Superstate if the populations of all the member states had a huge amount of Nationalist pride.. Look at how Britain tries to curb the evolution of the EU at every step because its people have huge national pride because of the old empire. It has basically been conditioned out of us. Once the EU is a sovereign entity and begins militarizing, they will start pushing "EU Patriotism" on us.. I have no doubt about that.

Nationalism/Patriotism is something that is pushed by those in charge in order to get the population to fall in line and "Do their duty" for their country. It inevitably leads to one thing.. violence. So 60 years of peace would really quell nationalism.. think about it.

Originally posted by quackers
reply to post by VirginiaGreen

 

Of course there are plenty of great folk in America, but no one cares about them, they are not the image that America presents to the wider world. That image is well deserved, and the reason why people in America cannot see why it is deserved, is patriotism. The "we can do no wrong" attitude.

I disagree, Yes there are Great People in America, but someone does care about Us, it is We the American people that care about one another.
I do not believe we as a people "deserve" the image that is projected by the Media.
I personally do not like Many of the things our Government does, or has done. I understand the anger from other countries in which the America Government has imposed themselves on.
I Hate the fact that our Children have been sent overseas to die in a war/wars that we have had no business intruding into. It is not, nor has it been, The Peoples desire to kill people in other countries, well most of us anyway.
These decisions are made by Government Officals NOT average citizen of the United States.
I think Most, but not all, of the American People would rather see our Children here in their Own Country protecting this Country not others.
Don't get the idea that I do not Care about what happens in other Countries or to their people, but I don't feel it is, or has been, the obligation of American Children to fight in other Countries Wars.

Originally posted by open_eyeballs
reply to post by quackers

 

No. Your wrong.

Why dont you respond to the wiki article I posted last page?

Patriotism depending on context has nothing to do with nationalism.

Did you ever stop to think that perhaps what you percieve to be patriotism is nothing of the sort?

From your wiki article

Among the ancient Greeks, patriotism consisted of notions concerning language, religious traditions, ethics, law and devotion to the common good, rather than pure identification with a nation-state.

You see American partiotism is not the classical Greek partiotism. American patriotism is all about the nation-state. It is all about being proud to be part of the nation-state. It is nationalism.

You also called them racist bigots. Again. Your wrong. Heres my evidence:

It took till 1865 before the US abolished slavery. In 1812 The US even demanded that Great Britain return captured slaves or pay compensation, because slaves were considered "private property", and the yanks didn't like not having a dark skinned person serving them breakfast. It wasn't until the 1960's when your average racist bigot decided blacks might be just as much a human being as themselves. So, for all your Jefferson rhetoric, it means nothing. The US was built on slavery and racism and to deny that is to deny your own history. Par for the course.

Originally posted by Iseekthetruth!!!!!!!!

I disagree, Yes there are Great People in America, but someone does care about Us, it is We the American people that care about one another.
I do not believe we as a people "deserve" the image that is projected by the Media.

It is not the media who forces the government to invade countries for oil. It is not the media who forces the government to invade countries because they don't like their political leadership.

The perception of the US might very well be spread via the media, but it is the actions of the US by which they are judged.

As the US is meant to be a government of the people by the people, those people are responsible for the actions of their government. So the rest of the world is perfectly within their rights to blame normal Americans for the actions of the American government.

[edit on 22-9-2009 by quackers]

I think this is all irrelevant. Don't know about patriotism, but NATIONALISM separates people. When talking to a Chinese or Korean people you'll quickly notice how effective the propaganda machines is. Every country has this false image of themselves. Caused by the leaders.

In a perfect world, there would be only one human race. People can be different, but can still be united. It's richness.. I wonder what would happen if people would start to consider themselves more animals (what we are)?. Conscious animals.

Maybe it's inevitable to have wars and discomfort, since there are always lunatics who want to take over. It's always been like that.

Originally posted by stevegmu
What I find interesting, is that many Europeans have a dislike or distrust of those who are patriots. They seem to think it is silly to show such devotion and love for their country, especially those who fly flags outside their houses, or proudly wear them on tee-shirts. The 'worst' ones even feel the need to say a pledge to the country they love. Yet, many of these same people who denounce patriotism are rabid soccer fans, who fight, riot, destroy property, memorize and sing chants, wear team jerseys and shorts- all in the name of their soccer clubs. Which one is more absurd, pride and devotion to one's country, or to their soccer team?

Actually, you're very wrong there mate. Most people who can be considered football "hooligans" are actually the most nationalistic, right-wing, monosylabic troglodites that we have in the country. The kind with the cross of St. George tattooed on them. The kind that sing "no surrender to the IRA" in the middle of the national anthem.

Sure that's a generalisation, but its a generalisation based in fact and empirical experience. And it's a far more accurate generalisation than your reductive "all europeans are anti-patriotic = all europeans are football hooligans" nonsense. You see, you made the classic American mistake of thinking that all "soccer" (hate that word) fans are middle class liberals. Over here it's the working mans game, and blind nationalism is fostered like a yeast culture in the working class. As is true in most countries in the world.

This, however, is a different discussion, so if you'd like me to educate you on football culture so you don't make such mistakes in future, drop me a P2P

Besides, i chose my club. I couldn't choose my country.

Up the blues!

I wont say it. you know why? I dont pledge allegiance to anything.

I love this country. However, any good thing can fall into darkness. To pledge allegiance is to say that you will support that thing no matter the cause. That is a VERY dangerous road, my friend.

Originally posted by Tryptych
I think this is all irrelevant. Don't know about patriotism, but NATIONALISM separates people.

Very interesting you should say that. Here's some quotes from "patriots" in this thread.

what are you doing being American?

feel free to stay on your side of the pond.

Don't come in here spouting broad generalizations about American people

it is what happens when a large amount of intolerant immigrants are welcomed in

Cuba warmly welcomes Americans who would like to seek asylum. You can probably find a cheap flight if you go through Toronto or Montreal.

Originally posted by quackers
Patriotism is no better than fascism or communism. Pledging your undying devotion to a piece of cloth is no better than having blind faith in a mythical fire breathing creature.

The United States was founded by fanatical zealots who also just happened to be racist bigots, and as it would happen, very little has changed over the centuries.

Americans are seen around the world as fat and lazy. They are seen as bullies and murderers. The are seen as the proponents of a global agenda hell bent on making everybody's life a misery, all for the sake of the mighty dollar.

So when you stand up, and you pledge your allegiance, just what are you pledging your allegiance to? If you are proud to be an American, then you are a very sick individual indeed.

As much as I would be inclined to resent you and harbor ill sentiment against you for the very last comment in your post. Believe me--I won't. I'm an American and frankly I must be guilty of being a sick individual because I am proud to be American. I was born here. What I am not proud of is some of the things America has come to be symbol of through out the world. Some of those things you already pointed out.

Just want to kinda point out as well that, I could say something very similar about you too. Because you think Americans are 'sick individuals' I could be like your typical American and call you a 'commie' or a 'terrorist'. But believe me--I'm not about to consider doing that for even a split second.

But the rest of you saying the same thing in agreement with Quackers. You all are right on the money. You make a very valid point.

It's kinda like when Dan Rather asked Morgan Freeman in an interview how he felt about Black History Month. Freeman said it himself that he does not like black history month. (I assumed the whole point he was making is the fact that you're still singling out a whole race/ethnicity--the idea that there's a black history month, hispanic heritage month, etc, but if someone came out with a white's history month they'd be called racist.) (I would suppose it's the same mentality--is it not?) (You see the parallel?)

Freeman asked Rather "What ethnicity are you?" and his reply was "I'm Jewish." And so Freeman proceeded to ask; "Okay. So would you be excited about a Jewish History Month?" And Rather said "Frankly, it wouldn't matter to me."

And on side note here; I've seen Black History Month and Hispanic Heritage Month, etc etc. But I've yet to see a Native American History/Heritage month. Last time I checked Native Americans suffered pretty bad. Right on par with Africans if not worst.

And let me just end the post here with reciting the message I read on a bumper sticker.

(To any hardcore right-wing American who wants to bash 'illegal Mexicans' for taking their jobs or 'mooching off their welfare' or just for being 'illegal immigrants' or 'Mexican'.. whatever..etc.)

The bumper sticker in question read: "Got a problem with illegal immigrants? Tell it to the Native American Indians. They'd be happy to share your sentiment.

reply to post by quackers

Did you ever stop to think that perhaps what you percieve to be patriotism is nothing of the sort?

Actually my perception of patriotism is exactly what the definition of the wiki article indicates.

It just has a label. The label happens to be the name of the land bound by its borders and where ethics, traditions, law and devotion to the common good were developed and practiced for a very long time. You are saying because someone shows loyalty and wishes to fly the flag or pledge allegiance are somehow the equivalent to all the bad things the government has done.

Well...patriotism in the very definition you quoted means to disagree and to make changes for the benefit of the common good...it doesnt mean to sit idley by and allow atrocites to occcur. Patriotism and its subsequent feelings are meant to change the bad parts of ones country...to work for those noble attributes that are for the benefit of those living within its borders.

It took till 1865 before the US abolished slavery. In 1812 The US even demanded that Great Britain return captured slaves or pay compensation, because slaves were considered "private property",

Thats correct..It was an economic issue. Just as you indicated. Even if the civil war had not happened, slavery was on its way out. But there were multiple issues of the day. You can try to paint a picture that Americans were racists until 1865 or you can recognize what was truely happening behind the scenes and in the minds of the people who created America and that those important years were one of transition, and just as with everything; enlightening minds is the most difficult task of any. It is a process an dtakes time...lots of time.

and the yanks didn't like not having a dark skinned person serving them breakfast. It wasn't until the 1960's when your average racist bigot decided blacks might be just as much a human being as themselves.

Generalize generalize generalize. Your great at painting a brilliant multi colorful picture in black and white...You wish to look at the world that way, thats up to you. But thats not the world I choose to live in. If you cant recognize the struggle that America went through over the abolition of slavery then again your either ignorant or purposefully spiteful.

So, for all your Jefferson rhetoric, it means nothing.

To someone who wishes to ignore both sides of the argument and remain in their safe little box with one tiny window to look through , then your right it does mean nothing...

The US was built on slavery and racism and to deny that is to deny your own history. Par for the course.

When have I denied slavery existed and is a large part of American history? You are denying the struggle that existed since the inception of America about slavery. Europeans are the ones who created America, so european economics and morals dominated until we could free ourselves from much of the narrow mindedness that has plagued that entire region for centuries.

reply to post by quackers


typical...

use quotes out of context to support your generalized argument...

classic...

shall we quote some of your inane rhetoric? or thats probably not necessary; you will be happy to repeat it for us, eh?

so lame...

I did not read the full thread, lot's of postings. But I would like to say...

children should never be forced to "pledge" to anything. They are too young to understand the concept behind the pledge, it means nothing to them until they are old enough to understand what "it" is all about.

We should teach our children our values, and then when they grow up they should then be allowed to make their own choices as to if they want to pledge their allegiance to anything or anyone, be it a country, religion, idea or person.

Oh, and yes, I believe America is sick, something is wrong with many people. Greed seems to have taken over this great country and turned it into a melting pot of crazy money grubbing greedy psychotic self serving people.

My husband and I have discussed leaving this country, if we could afford it, we would be gone. You can bet, if we do not get a public health option that will actually assist us, instead of one that creates a whole bunch of forced customers for the health industry (greedy bast****), we will be looking at other options. Financially, I don't know if it is doable for us, but it will definitely be an option we will research with more intensity. This country seems to ignore what the majority of American's want, ie no bail out of the banks, wall street etc. along with a public option health insurance. Fine I will give my taxes to a country who actually just might deserve it.

Harm None
Peace

reply to post by open_eyeballs



I said that the US was founded by racist bigots, you refuted the claim, but now you you say you never denied it? Either the US was built on the back of slave labour and bigotry or it wasn't. Make your mind up.

All the quotes can be read in their original posts. None of them are out of context. They all show how the patriotic "them and us" mindset is alive and well in nationalist America.

In terms of American patriotism, it all seems a little.....over the top.

But for so called American patriots, where do you draw the line?
Take the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, especially the latter. Your pledging your alleigence to a war mongering militaristic country.

Iraq posed no threat and did not have WMDs. Yet your government sold you a load of lies and went in and destroyed Iraq.

Does that not make you take a step back and have a look at what's going on. To start to question?

Because if you don't question the government, if you don't start to think, you're no longer patriots, you just become blind obeying robots.

Ive seen Europe and America represented here thus far but I haven't seen an Aussie perspective yet so I thought I might chime in....

We Aussies love our country, we love our way of life. We are a highly patriotic people in those senses. Our patriotism is based around "mateship" and helping our neighbours. It's what makes us one of the best fighting forces in the world also - for an example of that Google "The Battle of Long Tan".

The difference in our patriotism to that of America's is that we see ourselves as an integrated part of the world as a whole, not it's self declared master or it's self declared protector. That's where America stands alone, and the reason it is disliked by many outsiders.

Some American's have a tendancy to talk down to people from other countries, as if we are somehow inferior because we are not American. I will recieve many replies to this very sentence shouting at me how American's don't talk down to people from foriegn countries and THAT RIGHT THERE is the reason they cannot see it. Their blind patriotism and belief that America can do no harm. The entire rest of the world could say it at the same time and those American's would not see it. I find this saddening.

EDIT: Typo's. Yeah I know I'm a Spelling Nazi so sue me

[edit on 22/9/2009 by Kryties]

I have already made it clear there is a difference between nationalism and patriotism.

But I want to make one more point.

Patriotism demands for the patriot to stand up and fight for the greater good of the country.

Nationalism is a form of apathy and a gateway for tyranny and a great example of the allowance of atrocities that are happening in and performed by America today.

Even if you are a minority...in fact there is an argument that the patriot is has been the minority for a long time...patriotism is the action that helps drive forthg the dieas of freedom and the greater good.

Originally posted by open_eyeballs

Nationalism is a form of apathy and a gateway for tyranny and a great example of the allowance of atrocities that are happening in and performed by America today.

You're almost agreeing with my "American patriotism is nationalism" idea. So, which is it? Is it a once patriotic now nationalistic fighting for the return of patriotism? Or is it a persistant form of nationalism struggling to evolve into patriotism?

That's up the the American people.

in fact there is an argument that the patriot is has been the minority for a long time

Getting there. If real partiotism is in the minority, what is the majority? Could it perhaps be nationalism pretending to be patriotism?

[edit on 22-9-2009 by quackers]

Ya know, there is always someone who has said it better than I could:

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel"-Samual Johnson

"No matter that patriotism is too often the refuge of scoundrels. Dissent, rebellion, and all-around hell-raising remain the true duty of patriots."-Barbara Ehrenreich

"The heights of popularity and patriotism are still the beaten road to power and tyranny; flattery to treachery; standing armies to arbitrary government; and the glory of God to the temporal interest of the clergy."-David Hume

"I realise that patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone."- Edith Cavell

"Patriotism ... is a superstition artificially created and maintained through a network of lies and falsehoods; a superstition that robs man of his self-respect and dignity, and increases his arrogance and conceit."-Emma Goldman

"My country, right or wrong" is a thing no patriot would ever think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying "My mother, drunk or sober.""-G. K. Chesterton

"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others because you were born in it."-George Bernard Shaw

"Patriotism is a arbitrary veneration of real estate above principles."-George Jean Nathan

"Patriotism ruins history."-Goethe

"I love America more than any other country in this world, and, exactly for this reason, I insist on the right to criticize her perpetually."-James Baldwin

"The love of one's country is a splendid thing. But why should love stop at the border?" -Pablo Casals

"Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism - how passionately I hate them!" -Albert Einstein

reply to post by quackers


well i agree that there is nationalism all through out america. havent argued on that this entire time..

but again, you generalizing puts true patriotic individuals in the same boat as those with nationalistic views.

nationalism isnt a unique american thing either..

it plagues every nation... i realize this thread is about america and has good examples of nationalism, but that doesnt mean all of america gets inline with the rest of the zombies...

i can have pride for where i live, practice patriotism and still be completely void of nationalism... they are not synonymous. i think i have been very clear about that.

so its simple...quit generalizing and learn to be fair with your speech, or paint us all the way you see us and continue to recieve the bird...

reply to post by quackers

Originally posted by Iseekthetruth!!!!!!!!

I disagree, Yes there are Great People in America, but someone does care about Us, it is We the American people that care about one another.
I do not believe we as a people "deserve" the image that is projected by the Media.

It is not the media who forces the government to invade countries for oil. It is not the media who forces the government to invade countries because they don't like their political leadership.

The perception of the US might very well be spread via the media, but it is the actions of the US by which they are judged.

As the US is meant to be a government of the people by the people, those people are responsible for the actions of their government. So the rest of the world is perfectly within their rights to blame normal Americans for the actions of the American government.

[edit on 22-9-2009 by quackers]

At least you got something correct. The U.S. "is meant to be" a government of the people.

We are told by our Government when we are going to war with whom, it is Not something We get a say in.

We "the people of America" Try to elect officals that represent our goals and beliefs. The problem is that they LIE!
They say one thing to get elected and turn around and do just the opposite. Well a lot of them anyway.

This is another thing that We cannot control. I don't know any way to get inside someones head to see what their real values are.

So, I have to say, Yes you can Blame The American Government but not Its People.

reply to post by quackers

The United States was founded by fanatical zealots who also just happened to be racist bigots, and as it would happen, very little has changed over the centuries....

So which country are you immigrating to? Obviously you HATE the USA so LEAVE please.