Jehovah's Witnessess, I NEVER thought I would say this

reply to post by mellisamouse
We used to be able to, don't know why that isn't the case anymore. Oh well, lol.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Name me ONE SINGLE instance where Satan tells a truth within the Word of God.....

Satan said.... (Matthew 4:6)


"If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written:
" 'He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'


In this scripture alone Satan is stating two TRUTHS

1. That Jesus is the Son of God (NOT A TRINITY)

2. Quotes from scripture.... Psalm 91:11,12


But like Miriam already pointed out, he will use anything, even TRUTH, to carry out his malicious purposes. That is why Jesus said "there is no truth in him", because he has no love of truth, it does not mean he can't speak it, or use it.

[edit on 29-9-2009 by holywar]

reply to post by holywar
First of all you/Satan both quote scripture in ERROR. Satan added 4 words to the Word of God:

Matthiew 4:6

"And saith unto him, 'If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give His angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear the up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.'"

What Psalm 91:11-12 ACTUALLY says:

11" For he shall give His angels charge over thee, to keep the in all thy ways. 12 They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone."

Satan added "For" and "at any time" to the Word of God (Psalm 91:11-12) and was quoting the SEPTUIGENT Greek version, the same version we get the perverted NIV and NSAB modern perversions of scripture. Satan was lying, twisting the scriptures to try and get Jesus to jump and commit suicide from the temple. He most certianly was not quoting Psalm 90:11-12, he was perverting the Word of God.

Like previously stated, half-truths are both logical fallacies and lies. Satan, was trying to deceive Jesus by twisting scriptures. It's what he does, tries to pervert every single thing God says.

(Spelling error edit)





[edit on 29-9-2009 by NOTurTypical]

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Dude, almost all of the OT scriptures used in the NT are not "word-for-word" due to the greek of the NT vs the Hebrew/Aramaic of OT texts. The Greek OT is what everyone was using at the time of Jesus. Did the greek version make the actual statement any less of a truth? No, it just worded the truth a little different.

As far as Satan telling truth... why would you think differently? You are calling deception the same as lies. Yes, deception is usually accompanied by lies but telling the truth can lead to deception too. Just as miriam stated earlier, if Satan said the sky was blue, would he be lieing? If not, case closed. If so, what if Jesus or God confirms that the sky is blue? Is it a lie if Satan says it and a truth if Jesus/God says it?

To deceive someone is to trick them, not necessarily lieing to them. Satan told the truth to Eve when he said her eyes would be opened to the truth. There was no lie in his deception. Even Satan saying they wouldn't die if they ate the fruit wasn't completely a lie in the sense they wouldn't die on the spot. It was a lie in the sense that they would "eventually" die. They didn't grasp the concept that they could die at a later time after eating the fruit. Satan used the truth to deceive them because he knew the outcome would go his way.

Doesn't make it any less true. Just make the truth in that form an evil thing. To use truth for good is always proper but to use it for evil purposes turns the truth into deception.

Also, when Satan was tempting Jesus he told the truth.....

8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.”
10 Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.’”
11 Then the devil left Him, and behold, angels came and ministered to Him.

This was a truth by Satan in the sense that Satan is known in the NT as the "god of this present world/age" and that he as power over all the governments right now. He could have given Jesus kingship over the world if God was denied and He worshipped Satan. This was Satan trying to deceive with truth.

Also with your reference to the greek OT... how about Jesus speaking from the OT scriptures?

Matthew 4:10 is a scriptural quote from Deuteronomy 6:13. Here's how Jesus spoke it.

‘You shall worship the LORD your God, and Him only you shall serve.’

And Moses.....

13 You shall fear the LORD your God and serve Him, and shall take oaths in His name.

You can even backtrack a few verses to the beginning of Chapter 4.

Jesus quoted Deuteronomy 8:3.
‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’

And here are the actual words of Moses....
...man shall not live by bread alone; but man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the LORD.

It's not word for word. Did Jesus misquote the OT? No. He spoke it in a slightly different way but never took away from what it was really saying.


I'm just saying......

reply to post by Locoman8


Half-truths are lies. Period.

Error of fact Fallacy

Fine peeps, don't take my word or the Lord's, look at the fallacy as we define it. Take SPECIAL notice of the 2nd line in the link. PURPOSEFUL errors of fact are "LIES".

"Let your yea be yea and your nea be nea, anything more is of the Devil." ~ Jesus Christ

A HALF TRUTH is a LIE and a PURPOSEFUL deception. How can that not be any more obvious??????

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by miriam0566

 

I stand corrected then, i apologize. Will you forgive me?

i really am not emotionally attached to this thread. though i may not sound it, im trying to be as logical as possible

Okay, is that a Yes or No? I'm confused..

its a "nothing to forgive, you did nothing wrong"

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by miriam0566

 

We are not disagreeing that a truth is a truth no matter whom is saying it. That is correct, however, you admit that Satan does in fact tell "half-truths", but anyone who has taken debate knows a "half-truth" is a logical fallacy, and a deception. It doesn't matter is Satan says something that is 99% truth, if it's not a complete truth, it is a deception.

And of course I take the Lord's words like that, He is incapible of a lie, and He plainly states there is NO TRUTH in the Devil, he is the father of lies. So CTR is completely wrong when he makes the assumption that Satan is capible of a "truth", he is not, he is a liar just like the Lord states.

you actually saying what im saying but your jumping to conclusions.

"It doesn't matter is Satan says something that is 99% truth, if it's not a complete truth," then you say " He plainly states there is NO TRUTH in the Devil".

now we both know that jesus is not talking about a literal absolute sense of "no truth". he's talking about a relative "no truth" to which jesus is referring to the ends of satan's lies.

the little girl kept saying "These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation."

this statement is completely 100% true. but it detracted from paul's message. whatever the demons motivation for saying that, it was bad.

if jesus' "no truth" statement was a literal absolute statement, then the demons would not have said what they did.

russell saw this which is why he made that statement.

even satan can reveal truth without intending too. for example, if he persecutes you for doing something right, then at the very least you know you are doing something right. im sure its not his intention to encourage you to continue, but thats sometimes how it works.

i dont disagree with you per say. i just think you are picking at details to make a point

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by holywar

 

First of all you/Satan both quote scripture in ERROR. Satan added 4 words to the Word of God:

i want to comment on this but i dont have time (packing for a flight).

ill reply tomorrow possibly

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
"A truth presented by Satan himself is just as true as a truth stated by God... Accept truth wherever you find it, no matter what it contradicts."

Charles Taze Russell, "Zion's Watchtower". July 1879, pp 8, 9

One needs to be careful how quotes are made. Many take the above out of its context, and use it for "shock" impact. Some take what Russell said out of context to make it appear that Russell was condoning spiritism or some form of demonic occultism, which, of course, he was not.

The entire article:

"WHAT IS TRUTH?"

This question is one which every sincere Christian should ask and seek to answer. We should learn to love and value truth for its own sake; to respect and honor it by owning and acknowledging it wherever we find it and by whomsoever presented. A truth presented by Satan himself is just as true as a truth stated by God.

Perhaps no class of people are more apt to overlook this fact than the Christian. How often do they in controversy overlook and ignore truth presented by their opponents. This is particularly the case when arguing with an infidel. They feel at perfect liberty to dispute everything he says on religious subjects. This is not the correct principle. Many infidels are honest--as anxious to speak and believe the truth as are Christians--and if in converse with them we ignore truths which they may advance, we not only fail to convince them of our truths, but put an end to all hope of reaching them; for our failure to admit the evident truth which they advance begets in them contempt for the one who is not honest enough to admit one truth because he does not see how it can be reconciled to another. Accept truth wherever you find it, no matter what it contradicts, and rely for ability to afterwards harmonize it with others upon "The Spirit of truth, which shall guide you into all truth," as Jesus promised.

Truth, like a modest little flower in the wilderness of life, is surrounded and almost choked by the luxuriant growth of the weeds of error. If you would find it you must be ever on the lookout. If you would see its beauty you must brush aside the weeds of error and the brambles of bigotry. If you would possess it you must stoop to get it.

Be not content with one flower of truth. Had one been sufficient there would have been no more. Gather ever, seek for more.

Weave them together as a garland --"Bind them on thee as a bride doeth." "Bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart: so shalt thou find favor and good understanding in the sight of God and man." `Prov. 3:3`. -- end of article.

It should be evident that Russell was speaking of the attitude of many Christians who would reject everything said by an infidel and not acknowledging any of the truths that might intermixed with what was said.

When the demon(s) called Jesus "the Son of the Most High," "the Son of God," for instance, I believe that they told the truth; their telling the truth on this matter, however, does not mean that they would speak the truth on all matters. -- Matthew 8:29; Mark 5:7; Luke 4:44; 8:28.

If a newspaper reporter is still a child of wrath, a fornicator, absolutely everything said by him must be a lie? We need to stop believing any everything our unregenerated neighbor might say, since absolutely everything he says is a lie? If a newspaper article is written by an unregenerated unbeliever, every sentence is a lie? This is downright silly.

Likewise, Satan is a liar, but this does not mean that he cannot tell the truth, especially if he can twist it to support his lies. Today he is doing this through evolutionists, politicians, false religionists, etc. It is not that every statement that he has his "ministers" say is a lie, but that they can often present the truth. If Satan uses an evolutionist to tell a truth, we should recognize the truth stated, but reject the lie that the truth is often claimed to support.

[edit on 30-9-2009 by ResLight]

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
John 8:44

44. "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.
He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode NOT in the truth.
because there is NO TRUTH in him. When he speaketh a lie
he speaketh of his own: for he is a LIAR, and the father of it."

Ponder that.. "NO truth in him..." Are you implying the Lord Jesus Christ is the one lying here????

John 8:44
humeis ek tou patros tou diabolou este kai tas
YOU OUT OF THE FATHER OF THE DEVIL YOU ARE AND THE
4771_4 1537 3588 3962 3588 1228 1510_4 2532 3588
epithumias tou patros humwn thelete poiein
DESIRES OF THE FATHER OF YOU YOU ARE WILLING TO BE DOING.
1939 3588 3962 4771_5 2309 4160
ekeinos anthrwpoktonos een ap archees kai en tee
THAT (ONE) MAN KILLER WAS FROM BEGINNING, AND IN THE
1565 0443 1511_3 0575 0746 2532 1722 3588
aleetheia ouk esteeken hoti ouk estin aleetheia en
TRUTH NOT HE HAS STOOD, BECAUSE NOT IS TRUTH IN
0225 3756 4739 3754 3756 1510_2 0225 1722
autw hotan lalee to pseudos ek twn idiwn
HIM. WHENEVER HE MAY SPEAK THE LIE, OUT OF THE OWN (THINGS)
0846_5 3752 2980 3588 5579 1537 3588 2398
lalei hoti pseustees estin kai ho pateer
HE IS SPEAKING, BECAUSE LIAR HE IS AND THE FATHER
2980 3754 5583 1510_2 2532 3588 3962
autou
OF IT.
Westcott & Hort Interlinear

Although most translations render Jesus' words in a manner that one could interpret his words to mean that Satan cannot tell a truth, that is not what Jesus actually said. What Jesus stated is that the truth is not in [Greek, en -- Strong's #1722, instrumental, by means of] Satan; that is, Satan is not a instrument of truth. "The truth is not in [en, by means of] him." (Douay-Rheims; see also Rotherham's Emphasized Bible; Murdock's translation) Charles Taze Russell was in agreement with Jesus' words in John 8:44.

Nevertheless, Matthew Henry suggests:

By the truth here we may understand the revealed will of God concerning the salvation of man by Jesus Christ, the truth which Christ was now preaching, and which the Jews opposed; herein they did like their father the devil, who, seeing the honour put upon the human nature in the first Adam, and foreseeing the much greater honour intended in the second Adam, would not be reconciled to that counsel of God, nor stand in the truth concerning it, but, from a spirit of pride and envy, set himself to resist it, and to thwart the designs of it; and so did these Jews here, as his children and agents. Secondly, He is destitute of the truth: There is no truth in him. His interest in the world is supported by lies and falsehoods, and there is no truth, nothing you can confide in, in him, nor in any thing he says or does. The notions he propagates concerning good and evil are false and erroneous, his proofs are lying wonders, his temptations are all cheats; he has great knowledge of the truth, but having no affection to it, but on the contrary being a sworn enemy to it, he is said to have no truth in him. -- end of quote

Thus Henry would seem to limit "truth" to reference to truth about salvation.

Christian love,
Ronald

[edit on 30-9-2009 by ResLight]

reply to post by miriam0566


Oh, okay cool Miriam! I know that you identify with the JWs to a dregree, and I hope not to be offnsive even though we disagree.

It's meant with love.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Good form my friend.
Good form.

2nd line added for mods....

reply to post by ResLight
westcott and Hort did a great translation, but it was a translation of the rejected corrupt Alexandrian Greek text that originated with Origen.

I can link many things about these two men, but they were not Godly men, in their later years they rejected many biblicl doctrine.

Google"Westcott and Hort Satanists" and you'll be amazed. Or I can when I get home from work, that's fine too. But for me, I'm not coming close to anything Westcott and Hort had their hands on after I learned about societies they joined and things they said about God and His word.

Here is a basic one to chew on while I go to work:

Basic Understanding of the NWO by David J Stewart

And here:

Westcott and Hort (more in depth)