Jehovah's Witnessess, I NEVER thought I would say this

reply to post by TangoVooDoo
Oh, okay I thought for a second I was reading that you were saying that the trinity doctrine believers think there are 3 seperate Gods (plural).

My apologies for reading your post in error.

reply to post by miriam0566


no offence, but you are just projecting BAD BAD vibes on everyone....

When Jesus' deciples asked him, "how ill we know they are your people?" he said the y would have LOVE among them......NOT feeling the love....

Also, the fruitages of the holy spirit are LOVE, JOY, PATIENCE, etc, etc, etc......not feeling that either.....just attacked...same "fruitage" that made me pray for God to please show me the truth and get me out of there no matter HOW (if they were not his true people) in the first place......


You are not defending them with your attitude, you are making them look worse....

reply to post by miriam0566



Wow, I feel a bit slandered by YOU now, as I have not stated anything falsley, NOR do I have any false motives as you have accused.....

why would I say I forgive them, out of the blue, if there was nothing to forgive?

Why would I bring attention to them and admit my error???

WOW.

reply to post by TangoVooDoo



Maybe you don't understand the fact that the word "GOD" in the Old Testament, is considered to be a body of divine beings.... not just one. Currently, the GOD FAMILY consists of the Father and the Son, but there is a mission to bring humans to the "DIVINE" family.

The human family was meant as a lesser model or type of this greater spiritual reality—that God is a family.
Scripture clearly states that there is only one God (Isaiah 46:9; Malachi 2:10; Romans 3:30; James 2:19). Nevertheless, it is evident that the one God comprises more than one Being existing together as a divine family (compare Ephesians 3:14-15)—of which the human family is a physical type.

The Hebrew word translated "God" throughout the Old Testament is Elohim, a plural noun pointing to more than one almighty Being—essentially "Gods." However, it is normally singular in usage when referring to the true God of Israel, being paired in such cases with singular verbs and adjectives. Where such passages are quoted in the New Testament, the Greek word used to translate the term is the singular Theos, meaning God.

We have a comparable example in American English of a noun being plural in form but singular in usage—the national name United States. While the plural form represents a true plurality of states, singular usage shows the constituent states to form a unit. We might say, "The United States is going to intervene," but not—since the country's early years—"The United States are . . ." Thus there is one United States made up of a plurality of states that are united. Even so, there is one God consisting of more than one divine Being. Indeed, in two telling places in the book of Genesis, rather than using the singular pronouns "Me" or "My," God uses the plural pronouns "Us" or "Our" (1:26; 3:22). The New Testament reveals two Beings as God—God the Father and the Word, the One who became Jesus Christ (John 1:1-3, 14).

Christ's title the Word refers to His position as the One who speaks and acts on the Father's behalf (compare John 8:26-28; 12:49-50; 14:10). Numerous passages refer to Jesus Christ as God (Isaiah 9:6; John 20:27-28; 1 Timothy 3:16; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 1:8-9).

The plural aspect of God is often taken as evidence supporting the doctrine of the Trinity, which maintains that God is three distinct persons (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) in a single being. Yet this idea runs counter to reason and sound logic.

More importantly, this doctrine is unscriptural. Again, God—that is, the God family—at present comprises God the Father and God the Son, Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit is never listed in Scripture as a third person who is also God. For instance, the apostle Paul says we are to be aspiring to understand the "mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge" (Colossians 2:2-3). There is no mention here of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is not a person but is the power, mind, life and shared essence of God (compare Luke 24:49; Acts 1:8; Romans 15:13; Romans 8:27; 1 Corinthians 2:16; John 4:24; 5:26; 6:63).

Furthermore, contrary to the Trinitarian view that the Father and Son are coequal in authority (along with the Holy Spirit), Jesus Christ not only said, "My Father . . . is greater than all" (John 10:29), but He even said, "My Father is greater than I "(14:28; see also 1 Corinthians 11:3; 15:27-28).

The Trinity doctrine has done much to obscure the plain truth of Scripture that God is a family. God is the name of the Father, and it is also the name of the Son—as well as of both of Them together. Moreover, God intends for this family name to also be the name of other sons He is in the process of bringing to glory.

Irenaeus, a second-century bishop, was right when he observed: "There is none other called God by the Scriptures except the Father of all, and the Son, and those who possess the adoption [i.e., sonship as God's children]" (Against Heresies, Book 4, preface; compare Book 3, chap. 6). Note that there is no hint here of a Trinitarian formula in this early time period. That doctrine wasn't formulated until much later.

Again, God is a family—presently consisting of two divine Beings, the Father and Christ, but with more to come who will likewise bear the family name. Indeed, the human family was meant as a lesser model or type of this greater spiritual reality. Marriage is another aspect of this, as it is God's intention for those who are added to His family to enter a divine marriage relationship with Jesus Christ, the human covenant being patterned after the higher, God-plane relationship (compare Ephesians 5:22-23; Revelation 19:7-9).

Don't come to conclusions so fast my friend. The trinity is false doctrine.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
1: False prophets Check

except they never claim to be "prophets"

2. Twisting of scripture Check

lol, sure.

3. False doctrine Check

they take their doctrine from scripture, so if thats a problem for you, sorry?

Former Illumanists state he was and his gravestone is the Iluminati pyramid.

ctr.reslight.net...

And you should treat others as you wish to be treated, I would never call you a liar, that's just plain wrong. A "lie" is a WILLFUL distortion of the facts.

if i lied, i wont have the right to get mad at anyone for calling me a liar.

the "facts" that are presented regarding russell and the illuminati are lies and misrepresentations. plain and simple.

Originally posted by mellisamouse
When Jesus' deciples asked him, "how ill we know they are your people?" he said the y would have LOVE among them......NOT feeling the love....

You are not defending them with your attitude, you are making them look worse....

where's the love when you slander them?

you want love but your refuse to give it.

i do love you and ill tell you how. i love you enough to be upfront with you. i love you enough to let you know that you are doing something wrong so that you can correct it.

thats not a demand. you are going to do what you want, but im not going to "enable" your diverting of responsibility.

proverbs 15:32 He who neglects discipline despises himself, But he who listens to reproof acquires understanding.

if you were "thrown out". it is a form of discipline. its is to show you that something about your attitude was not in line with the bible.

hebrews 12:11 All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.

now why you got "thrown out" is none of my business. but there is plenty of research you can do regarding it and the bible.

being bitter and sharing your bitterness only makes things worse. trust me, i know

Originally posted by mellisamouse
Wow, I feel a bit slandered by YOU now, as I have not stated anything falsley, NOR do I have any false motives as you have accused.....

why would I say I forgive them, out of the blue, if there was nothing to forgive?

Why would I bring attention to them and admit my error???

WOW.

i dont know, i dont pretend to understand you or to know you. however i do know that they dont throw people out for no reason or because of a few kids that lie.

reply to post by miriam0566


Yes, they do. If you are so confident, then why are you not a baptised member? What exactly is holding YOU back?

Originally posted by mellisamouse
reply to post by miriam0566

 

Yes, they do. If you are so confident, then why are you not a baptised member? What exactly is holding YOU back?

why would they? why would they kick someone out on nothing more than a whim? sorry makes no sense

en.wikipedia.org...

Jehovah's Witnesses consider many actions to be "serious sins", for which baptized Witnesses are subject to disfellowshipping or formal reproof. Actions for which a member can be disfellowshipped include: Abortion, adultery, apostasy[18], bestiality, blood transfusions, drug abuse, drunkenness, extortion, fornication, fraud, gambling, heresy, homosexual activity, idolatry, incest, interfaith activity, "loose conduct"[19], manslaughter, murder, "perverted sex relations",[20] polygamy, pornography,[21] sexual abuse, spiritism, theft, and use of tobacco.

reply to post by miriam0566


I don't know Miriam, mabey becuase they are JUST MEN!!!! JUST like POLITICIANS, just led by doctrines of MEN, and NOT led by GOD.

I am just about ready to put you on ignore, because your slandering of MY EXPERIENCE and what I KNOW is true and happened to ME, you weren't there you have NO way of knowing therefore NO right to minimize my experience. I find that along the lines of emotional abuse.

So, you still have NOT answered the question.

WHY are you not a baptised member then, WHAT is holding you back????

Originally posted by Locoman8

Numerous passages refer to Jesus Christ as God (Isaiah 9:6; John 20:27-28; 1 Timothy 3:16; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 1:8-9).



Again, God—that is, the God family—at present comprises God the Father and God the Son, Jesus Christ.

You also stated prior:

Originally posted by Locoman8


I just want you to know that the whole "Jesus is God" thing has been proven false in so many ways. In my theological way of thinking we see Jesus as the "God" of the Old Testament who came in the flesh to reveal the "Father", who is the God of both testaments.

So you want us to know that "Jesus is God" is false yet you hold to a belief that Jesus is in fact God? This is contradictory and self refuting.

Originally posted by Locoman8

The Holy Spirit is never listed in Scripture as a third person who is also God. For instance, the apostle Paul says we are to be aspiring to understand the "mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge" (Colossians 2:2-3). There is no mention here of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is not a person but is the power, mind, life and shared essence of God (compare Luke 24:49; Acts 1:8; Romans 15:13; Romans 8:27; 1 Corinthians 2:16; John 4:24; 5:26; 6:63).

Can a "power" cannot be lied to?

Acts 5:1-4

1 Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2 With his wife's full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles' feet.

3 Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God."

In your view Ananias lied to a "power" yet Peter equates the Holy Spirit with God.

Can a "power" be greived?

Isaiah 63:10

10 But they rebelled
And grieved His Holy Spirit;
Therefore He turned Himself to become their enemy,
He fought against them.

An impersonal power or force cannot feel grief.

Ephesians 4:30

30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Micah 2:7 also equates the Spirit with God and demonstrates that the Spirit can become annoyed or impatient. Again an impersonal force cannot become annyoed.

7 "Is it being said, O house of Jacob:
'Is the Spirit of the LORD impatient?
Are these His doings?'
Do not My words do good
To the one walking uprightly?

Can a "power" or "force" speak?

2 Samuel 23:1,2

1 Now these are the last words of David.
David the son of Jesse declares,
The man who was raised on high declares,
The anointed of the God of Jacob,
And the sweet psalmist of Israel,
2" The Spirit of the LORD spoke by me,
And His word was on my tongue.

Only that which is alive and self-aware can converse and communicate, not a force or power.

Scripture states that we are to have "fellowship" with God the Father and Christ Jesus. We are able to have fellowship with them because they are NOT an impersonal force or power but because they have Personhood. So are we told to also have fellowship with the Holy Spirit?

2 Corinthians 13:14

14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

Yes we are to have fellowship with the Holy Spirit just as we are to have with God the Father and God the Son.

1 John 1:3

3 what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.

Lastly the Holy Spirit is able to bear witness. A force or power is not capable of such a personal attribute.

Acts 5:32

32 "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him."

So *IF* the Holy Spirit is a Person and not a power then we would expect to find Scripture that supports this, which we have in abundance. *IF* your view is Biblical then we would expect to find no passages that link the Spirit with personal attributes and also where it teaches that the Holy Spirit is just a "power force" yet we have none.

Now the passages that you have referenced only reinforce the Biblical teaching that the Holy Spirit is not a power, like electricity or wind, but has Personhood and is also God.

reply to post by TangoVooDoo


The entire family of God is linked through the Holy Spirit... which is the Spirit of God. The reason I call the Holy Spirit a "force" or "power" is because if this same spirit resides in all christians, it would be more than one god. A god for me, a god for you, a god for Jim-Bob up the road, etc. Instead, God's very spirit is poured out as a gift. This Holy Spirit is the very means of communication between the physical and spiritual world. I call the Holy Spirit a "Power" because it is through the power of God's Holy Spirit that Jesus was resurrected from the tomb. It was through the power of the Holy Spirit that the first christians came to be on the day of pentacost 31AD. It was through the power of the Holy Spirit that the prophets were able to communicate or recieve visions/messages from God. The Holy Spirit is not something that is ever worshipped either. Jesus and the Father are both worshipped. You don't pray to the Holy Spirit, you pray to God in the name of Jesus. You seek the Holy Spirit and God grants it to you if you're chosen to recieve it. You can only recieve the Holy Spirit through baptism. It's a gift, and an attribute of God, but not a god in itself.

Originally posted by mellisamouse
I am just about ready to put you on ignore, because your slandering of MY EXPERIENCE and what I KNOW is true and happened to ME, you weren't there you have NO way of knowing therefore NO right to minimize my experience. I find that along the lines of emotional abuse.

then put me on ignore if it will make you feel better.

lets get something straight. disagreeing with you is NOT emotional abuse. if you think it is, then you have problems.

i disagree with your account because it doesnt add up to the very public procedure that JW's have for expelling people. you stop following the bible in a "serious way" or teach something not in the bible and refuse to stop, THEN they expel you. i know because this subject in itself is controversial and has been brought up many times here on ATS

first off, your not just saying that one elder is corrupt. to get DF'ed, you need a committee so you are suggesting that several are corrupt. ill give you that. its completely possible you were in a bad congregation. but then you story completely lacks motivation. why would they want you out? its as if one day they just ganged up on you and said get out.

its defies logic whether we are talking about JW's or catholics or even local knitting circle. there is always a reason they would kick you out.

now i dont care if you dont provide a reason. your not on trial and frankly dont have to explain anything. but im not going to beat around the bush. i dont believe you. and i am completely within my rights to express that

So, you still have NOT answered the question.

and i have no intention to. it has nothing to do with this conversation.

Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by TangoVooDoo

 

The entire family of God is linked through the Holy Spirit... which is the Spirit of God. The reason I call the Holy Spirit a "force" or "power" is because if this same spirit resides in all christians, it would be more than one god. A god for me, a god for you, a god for Jim-Bob up the road, etc.

Here is your mistake in your belief.

Scripture declares that the Holy Spirit is God, I can demonstrate this over and over again using sound exegesis of Scripture. I have given you just a few passages that demonstrate the Personhood of the Holy Spirit.

Since the Holy Spirit is God and God is Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent then the Holy Spirit is all powerful, knows all things and is everywhere. There is no place one can go to be removed from His presence.

This attribute does not make God the Father numerous God because He is present everywhere does it? If we follow your line of reasoning then there must be a little god under the sea, in space, in the mountains, hills, every town, city, etc.

I have some very important passages to share with you but I need to get back to work for now

Sometimes the best defenders of JW's are non-members, and even ex-members sometimes.

As they are able to see the correct doctrinal points reached from the scriptures but they themselves are not prepared to do it, or just aren't ready to commit to such a challenging way of life.

A key ingredient for these ones is they have not been emotionally compromised with negativity. This is poison for the soul.

[edit on 24-9-2009 by Blue_Jay33]

[edit on 24-9-2009 by Blue_Jay33]

Hell is describe as a place were God's presents is not know.

reply to post by slymattb


Hell is described as "Death" or "Grave in most of the bible. Some symbolise the lake of fire in the new testament and one describes the confinement of angels in the new testament.

In all reality, the lake of fire (also known as the 2nd death) is a death sentence. You burn up, die and are non-existent afterward. Peace thrives and only those in God's Kingdom have everlasting life.

reply to post by miriam0566


it has EVERYTHING to do with this conversation as far as I'm concerned....

Disagreeing I am fine with, no problem, but accusing me of being a liar, is frigging down low and harsh to someone like me....lying, to me, or misrepresentation of my person, is the worst possible insult ever...which is why I thought it was such a violation in the first place. ( kicking me out for supposedly drinking too much)

I do believe God's spirit saved me from that place...I prayed for the truth, "do they have your spirit?" "if not please get me outta here", and was out within a week, no commitee, just one meeting with two of the Elders, who both were parents of the kids I was talking about...they HAD to know I was telling the truth, when your kid is out drinking, and barfing and reeks of booze on a regualr basis, there is no way they couldn't know.

Also, I was the babysitting doormat, I would go to a restaurant every week, with all of the non drinking kids and sing karaoke while the parents had a night off. We would eat appy's and drnk pop/juice..the whole TOWN knew I didn't drink, at the point I had gone over 8 years without a drop of alcohol......anyone and everyone knew I didn't drink.

Now, years later, some of the more "rebelious" ones, still tell me how they were so shocked because they knew what a total by the book nerd I was......I mean rediculously by the book...

reply to post by mellisamouse


For you and Miriam

I would say this.

Bible quote
Matthew 7
Judging Others
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

6"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

I don't know what happen. But I know that churches don't really kick people for nothing. But I also know they kick people for the stupidest and ungodly reasons. If someone wants to go to church to hear the word of God, who are we to denie them. But I also know good people makes mistakes, and when punish they don't want to realize they're mistakes. In all things in Christ we have to ask forgives of sins. Which means we have to realize our own wrong doings.

I make no judgement on what happen and I don't call anyone a lier. I only says what I think would be best in the name of the Lord God.

reply to post by Locoman8


Here my problem the JW claim that hell is death. I even remember Jesus telling us a dead man was alseep. But jesus talk of hell he talk of hell as a place to go. I do know that hell is fire of some type. But the fact is that fire got to be somewhere. And I think its in hell. And the bible does say some that hell is a place where God's presents is not known. I need to find that scripture.